krim wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

I am assuming here that K is you and B is your mockery of a "bad" player?

A lot of those "bad" players simply don't have the time nor the will to become "good". Being "good" takes significant investment.

I guess you are saying that if you don't have the time to invest into being "good" that your opinion doesn't matter and you are a "bad" player.

Unfortunately for "skilled" players, "bad" players outnumber "skilled" players by at least a magnitude of ^3.

This game doesn't cater to the "skilled". It always has and the foreseeable future looks the same.

That "bad" player will buy a bunch of things in the cash shop they don't need. Will you?

It doesnt take an extraordinary amount of skill to be good. But bads will never know how good they could have become in a game much more diverse then it has become If they would have given it a chance.

yodased wrote: »

I am assuming here that K is you and B is your mockery of a "bad" player?

A lot of those "bad" players simply don't have the time nor the will to become "good". Being "good" takes significant investment.

I guess you are saying that if you don't have the time to invest into being "good" that your opinion doesn't matter and you are a "bad" player.

Unfortunately for "skilled" players, "bad" players outnumber "skilled" players by at least a magnitude of ^3.

This game doesn't cater to the "skilled". It always has and the foreseeable future looks the same.

That "bad" player will buy a bunch of things in the cash shop they don't need. Will you?

krim wrote: »

But your playing a watered down mindless game now with no reason to get better or grow as a player.

yodased wrote: »

I am assuming here that K is you and B is your mockery of a "bad" player?

A lot of those "bad" players simply don't have the time nor the will to become "good". Being "good" takes significant investment.

I guess you are saying that if you don't have the time to invest into being "good" that your opinion doesn't matter and you are a "bad" player.

Unfortunately for "skilled" players, "bad" players outnumber "skilled" players by at least a magnitude of ^3.

This game doesn't cater to the "skilled". It always has and the foreseeable future looks the same.

That "bad" player will buy a bunch of things in the cash shop they don't need. Will you?

yodased wrote: »

krim wrote: »

But your playing a watered down mindless game now with no reason to get better or grow as a player.

The disconnect here is there is obviously a silent majority who prefer this version or it wouldn't exist.

The average person playing this game couldn't care less about "growing as a player" as they don't identify as a gamer. They simply play the game. This game is no different from Candy Crush to them. It's a time waster, something to do with friends.

Like it or not, the game populous is not EVE players, its not Dark souls players. They are not people interested in min/max spreadsheet character building MMOS.

This is why there is a native UI that doesn't incorporate those elements. This is why there are no specific "roles" in the game. This is why its AvAvA and not arenas and why there is no gear inspect, no gear score, no dueling.

Why crafted potions and gear is better or comparable to dropped.

The game is built to be a social environment within the Elder Scrolls universe, not a skill based PvP showdown.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I freely admit I am a casual player and far from hardcore.

@krim I see what you are saying and understand you want complex game play.
I don't think anyone really objects to that.
My ideal is full on tactical PVP making the right choice at the right time and not the wrong choice at the wrong time.
Where all classes are perfectly balanced and tactical experience wins over naivety.

The problem is many of these 'Leet' hardcore players are also the ones that spend all their time on PTS hunting for every single exploit that can be abused by their guild and kept secret.
I assume you are not defending exploiters right ?

Many of the changes were made to stop exploitation of bugs which 1vX gameplay relied on for many.
This is the reason behind the animosity between the casual and hardcore players.
Defending the 1vX meta is tantamount to defending the bugs and exploits that were ruthlessly abused.

So we are all in a bit of a pickle.
The casuals hate hardcore players for the exploit grinding that's destroyed the game and created OP 1vX builds.
The exploit hardcore players are upset because they cant 1vX anymore through lack of exploits.
The genuine good players attack the casuals for trying to dumb down the game when the only thing we was interested in was an exploit free environment and 'fair' game.

You could be the best player in the world. No one would be able to tell with exploits running rampant.
So it is in your interest to help remove them so you can shine and be acknowledged for your skill if its genuine.

I hope you can see how things look on the other side of the fence now.

HeroOfNone wrote: »

It's a bit more like

"We have a fire! Put it out!"
"Well, we're in the desert and the only things we have are these few water bottles and a couple jugs of gasoline you asked us to carry"
"Fine, toss what ever you can on there, even your own bodies!"

And the fire burns ever brighter.


Most don't want to spoon feed folks, but the meta builds and the narrow tracks in playstyles is what is the major issue here. If you didn't play aggressive and stacking little known exploit after exploit then folks were bad. A few folks broke past this, but it still hasn't stopped it.

At least in 1.5 when people botched about snipe being too OP it was clear that it was caused by the damage + sneak + travel time that made it absurdly OP in PVP. In 1.6 it was about double mundus, cam hunters that would always proc, Dawnbreaker that were installed cast, harden ward over a damage shield, etc. That normal players wouldn't have known about or exploited.

Want to make it better you're better advocating that ZOS adds in better options in skills that don't involve a simple high damage burst or stacking in shields/defense. Time to get more rock/paper/scissors instead of just rock/scissors

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So are we saying perfect game balance is impossible ?
If ZOS has actually designed the game to balance properly in the 1s place, we would probably have had no complaints and all dev time devoted to new content.
We probably would have had orsinium, clockwork city, spell crafting and assassins guild by now.
Maybe even some QoL stuff too like player housing.

You could of course argue if there was no PVP and trial.... problem solved.
No one would need compare so no need for balance.
But then you would have some classes wiping content in a few minutes with ease and some classes taking an hour with difficulty.
So would they then nerf the obviously hard content.. or would they up the skill level for the rofl casual game.
Od hear...we have a major paradaox created by IMBALANCE

Balance is everything in a muitplayer game.
Anyone who says otherwise has no idea how to make a game or wants to make 100x more work for themselves than necessary.
As demonstrated.

In fact the only possible rational for deliberately asking for game inbalance is for people to find and exploit those imbalances to the max to give them an advantage.
Which is normally where min/maxers thrive.
Isolating mathematical oddities that they can thrive upon.
The whole point of min maxing is to find... the best and the worst options that would not exist in a balanced game.

hammayolettuce wrote: »

This was obviously a caricature, but it was a caricature with a good point. Casuals (the "bads") as consumers -- or so it seems to me -- have the quizzical attributes of fickleness, but also stubbornness. They are fickle in that their business comes and goes depending on myriad reasons, which are usually unpredictable. They are stubborn in that they typically refuse to adapt to the game context as it is, or as it evolves in subsequent patches. (Let us reminisce about how often the bowtatoes bragged about how non-FOTM they were.) It is obvious that Zenimax is trying to appeal to the casuals. Truth be told, there are more of them. However, they have also forgotten that casuals typically bandwagon hard in the wake of hardcores. This is why games with a competitive slant become so popular ... or even become pop culture icons. Examples include the DOTA mod of Warcraft and its successor MOBA's, with League of Legends being the prime example. It is why CS:GO is rapidly becoming what CS 1.6 used to be.

Zenimax most likely anticipated its business coming from casuals, and first-time MMO gamers coming from the Elder Scrolls intellectual property's fan base. They did not anticipate how much hardcore gamers -- both PvP and PvE -- generate hype for a game by posting Youtube videos, streaming, and marketing their brand which incidentally markets the game they play. Such notable personalities as Sypher himself started playing ESO because of a video he watched. As this game continues to hemorrhage its hardcore PvP'ers and PvE'ers, as it has already lost most of them, it will also lose its popular appeal.

I am predicting 1.7/2.1 is the final nail in the coffin of a game that has been walking dead for some months. The development team has seemed to have had no direction since release. If they did, they never communicated it. Or perhaps they were afraid to communicate it? It seems obvious to me: all of their patches have favored the casual player over the hardcore player. They are committed to a "play how you want" mentality and will nerf everything into the ground to achieve it. They lack the common sense that there is no such thing as "play how you want" meaning "everyone is just as strong as everyone else" unless everyone is forced to use the same gear, skills, and race. And even so, you can't force everyone to be as good a critical thinker as everyone else. In short, Zenimax is currently busy trying to make square triangles and circular squares ... that is, the impossible.

This game is failing and has failed because a rookie studio sought out to do something impossible, as opposed to being wise, ambitious, and practical. I don't think they'll get a second chance either.

krim wrote: »

K. What do you use to put out the burning building? Water

B. But im a gasoline guy and i will never equip the FOTM water. We need to buff gasoline so i can put fires out with it also. no fair :'(

K. Is it possible to remove FOTM ?

K. I think everyone would have to be using the same exact build.

B. Everyone equip gasoline.

K. What about play how you want?

B. Oh yeah.....

B. So that means the way i want to play might not be the most effective way all the time.

K. Yep theres a lot going on in cyrodiil. You might run into a 1v1 on the way to a keep. One minute later still on the way to the keep you run into three players. You get to the keep and theres a big battle going on. You can really limit yourself by what build and play style you are currently using depending on what type of fight your engaged in.

B. I hate to see that guy out there doing all that 1vx looking like a raid boss. I cant do that with my daggers and bow he souldnt either. All my attacks just bounce right off him.

K. Well did you drain his stamina? Did you heal debuff him? Did you drop a fire balista or meatbag? Did any sorc attempt to drop a negate or just use storm atro and overload. Do you even know how he makes it work or just assume exploit?

B. No
B. No
B. Siege LOL no. arrows only I dont have time to go buy and use siege
B. No negates need more dmg.
B. No but theres no way he should be able to do that he is exploiting/hacking

B. Im not changing my build to be better prepared for what i encounter in cyrodiil. I will just complain till everyone no matter what build is equal. I will never use a staff, light armor, or sword and shield. Plus i cant use purge or anything magicka because im STAMINA no magicka allowed thats to FOTM. I should be able to do the same thing every build does. No more this counters that and that counters this. No matter the situation or type of battle i should be just as effective in any scenario.

B. I dont care if water puts out fire. I'm going to use gasoline and complain even though I dont understand the game. I dont have time to, I only play for 1 or 2 hours anyways. I just got this game because it was skyrim multiplayer. I have never played an MMO before.

----patch 1.6 is introduced----

B. Alright! i like this! I dont care that i die instantly im killing people too.

K. Yeah not bad i only had to completely change the way i approach the game and how i play. No biggie. So much for play how you want.

B. Hey atleast im using siege now its so easy so much DMG.

K. It always did DMG, and turned the tides of battle you just never bothered to use it until it started one shotting people.

B. So many people ganking now i wonder why

K. Must be because the changes now makes that way of play FOTM. Hey you are now FOTM.

B. Yeah i dont care i'm either ganking or with my faction 40 strong taking over things. Feels like war again so much fun.

K. Yep lucky for you. You only play 1-2 hours a day. That doesnt get boring at all.

----Couple months later---

B. Ok im getting tired of this now. All these shield stacking sorcs and NBs are killing me before i can react.

K. Seems like theres a new FOTM.

B. Yep and im not going to shield stack or w.e it is they are doing just like before. Time for another patch to even the playing field.

---2.1--

B. This is better i still suck but at least im not dieing instantly. Ohh and even though i myself know im bad im still going to complain because i know whats right. It doesnt matter that the skilled players are able to do it, and trying to help me by telling me what skills and gear to use i wont.. If i cant do it then the game is not designed right.

K. PvP and MMOs are not for you.