Eriquito3 wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Ebonheart Pact for three reasons:
1: Almalexia
2: Sotha Sil
3: Vivec

Those 3 dont do anything. They are losing their power trying to keep Dagoth Ur under red mountain.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that Dagoth Ur didn't awaken until 882 2E. The Ebonheart Pact was formed in 582 2E.

At the time of the Pact, it seems the Tribunal is still drawing on the full power of the Heart of Lorkhan.

Unless UESPWiki got it wrong.

starkerealm wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

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Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Purely going on Skyrim, the AD would win the day. Why, because my crystal ball tells me something bad is gonna happen in Morrowind, something bad is gonna happen in Cyrodiil and the AD [Altmer] are gonna use this to their advantage, whilst shitting all over the Bosmer in the process.

The AD from Skyrim is not the same AD from TESO. The fact that they involve the Altmer and the name is kind of the only thing they have in common.

What happens is that they break up and at some point some other completely new entity forms and decides to use the name.The new AD also falls and then after quite some time yet another entity forms and uses the name. This third AD is the one from TES 5. There is no conclusion that can be drawn about the short term future following TESO from the later ADs.

Interestingly, though, the Thalmor are the same organization. I'd made the mistake of thinking there were a new group co-opting the name, until I was reading something in Skyrim (The Rising Threat, I think), and noticed that, no, after the Oblivion crisis they became more aggressive, but they'd always been, basically what we see in ESO.

PRETTY SURE one of the quests related to the Thalmor in Skyrim said something like, "The Thalmor disappeared from the scene in xxx 2E. A new group found their ideology and adapted it to their own purposes after the Summerset Isles left the Empire and the fall of the White Gold Tower." (Been too long, cant remember the wording.)

I can't find it right now. The weirdness with the Thalmor is that the first Pocket Guide to the Empire (which shipped with Redguard, IIRC) lists them as being founded in the 2e850s, which is about 300 years after the game is set. It's also the first mention of the Aldmeri Dominion in general. Nothing about them ever being dissolved.

There is a book in Skyrim talking about how "The Thalmor had always been a part of Dominion politics, but after The Oblivion Crisis..." But, I can't find the source of that at the moment. Which certainly sounds like, yes, this is the same organization. I never paid a lot of attention to the Thalmor (or the High Elves in general) in previous games. So I'm not sure if there's references to them in the third era games or if they were simply added with Skyrim, and the name was picked from the Pocket Guide to provide a sense of continuity.

I think they might be thinking of accounts from this: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book)

starkerealm wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Purely going on Skyrim, the AD would win the day. Why, because my crystal ball tells me something bad is gonna happen in Morrowind, something bad is gonna happen in Cyrodiil and the AD [Altmer] are gonna use this to their advantage, whilst shitting all over the Bosmer in the process.

The AD from Skyrim is not the same AD from TESO. The fact that they involve the Altmer and the name is kind of the only thing they have in common.

What happens is that they break up and at some point some other completely new entity forms and decides to use the name.The new AD also falls and then after quite some time yet another entity forms and uses the name. This third AD is the one from TES 5. There is no conclusion that can be drawn about the short term future following TESO from the later ADs.

Interestingly, though, the Thalmor are the same organization. I'd made the mistake of thinking there were a new group co-opting the name, until I was reading something in Skyrim (The Rising Threat, I think), and noticed that, no, after the Oblivion crisis they became more aggressive, but they'd always been, basically what we see in ESO.

PRETTY SURE one of the quests related to the Thalmor in Skyrim said something like, "The Thalmor disappeared from the scene in xxx 2E. A new group found their ideology and adapted it to their own purposes after the Summerset Isles left the Empire and the fall of the White Gold Tower." (Been too long, cant remember the wording.)

I can't find it right now.

Hmm.. this appears to be what I remember, but, maybe I read it there instead of in Skyrim? Thanks for the source @Dekkameron

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thalmor

UnOfficalElderScrollsPages wrote: »

The Thalmor was dissolved a short time later when Tiber Septim brought Valenwood into his Empire using the overwhelming power of the Numidium.[2]
Centuries later, a new incarnation of the Thalmor arose in the Summerset Isles, reportedly claiming to have saved the Altmeri people from the Oblivion Crisis.[3]

Scyantific wrote: »

None of them are.

AD - Falls apart once Aerynn is gone
DC - Falls apart once Emeric dies or Faharaj'ad runs out of daughters/sisters to marry off and the Orcs wake up
EP - They hate each other and only did it because it was convenient to all three parties.

except u forget AD is in skyrim and the other two arent even mention which means AD is still standing well after this war

Darlgon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Darlgon wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

.

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Purely going on Skyrim, the AD would win the day. Why, because my crystal ball tells me something bad is gonna happen in Morrowind, something bad is gonna happen in Cyrodiil and the AD [Altmer] are gonna use this to their advantage, whilst shitting all over the Bosmer in the process.

The AD from Skyrim is not the same AD from TESO. The fact that they involve the Altmer and the name is kind of the only thing they have in common.

What happens is that they break up and at some point some other completely new entity forms and decides to use the name.The new AD also falls and then after quite some time yet another entity forms and uses the name. This third AD is the one from TES 5. There is no conclusion that can be drawn about the short term future following TESO from the later ADs.

Interestingly, though, the Thalmor are the same organization. I'd made the mistake of thinking there were a new group co-opting the name, until I was reading something in Skyrim (The Rising Threat, I think), and noticed that, no, after the Oblivion crisis they became more aggressive, but they'd always been, basically what we see in ESO.

PRETTY SURE one of the quests related to the Thalmor in Skyrim said something like, "The Thalmor disappeared from the scene in xxx 2E. A new group found their ideology and adapted it to their own purposes after the Summerset Isles left the Empire and the fall of the White Gold Tower." (Been too long, cant remember the wording.)

I can't find it right now.

Hmm.. this appears to be what I remember, but, maybe I read it there instead of in Skyrim? Thanks for the source @Dekkameron

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Thalmor

UnOfficalElderScrollsPages wrote: »

The Thalmor was dissolved a short time later when Tiber Septim brought Valenwood into his Empire using the overwhelming power of the Numidium.[2]
Centuries later, a new incarnation of the Thalmor arose in the Summerset Isles, reportedly claiming to have saved the Altmeri people from the Oblivion Crisis.[3]

I actually dug up the primary source... and I'm not thrilled with the way the wiki author phrased that bit.

For reference:

Pocket Guide to the Empire: 3rd Edition wrote:

The unified elven kingdom of Valenwood and Summerset, the Aldmeri Dominion, was the most stable power in Tamriel until the coming of Tiber Septim. The new government of Valenwood was called the Thalmor, a congress of Bosmeri chieftains and Altmeri diplomats. While not particularly popular, the Thalmor proved better than the chaos of the previous years, and endured until Tiber Septim's armies swept it away.

Found here.

That makes it sound more like the Thalmor in Valenwood survived until the rise of Tiber Septim, but not that the organization as a whole was disbanded.

Of course, there is a problem. With the Pocket Guides, they're talking about the Thalmor as a joint Bosmer/Aldmer government in the second era Dominion... while the organization in ESO and Skyrim is primarily Aldmeri.

The citation for the Thalmor being reincorporated is The Rising Threat Vol 2... which just says the Thalmor took credit for stopping the Oblivion Crisis, not that they actually formed a new order. From the way the rest of the text is written, you'd think the author would mention if it was a new organization, even if it was just reusing an old political name. Instead he assumes the reader knew they already existed. Or there would have been some attempt to explain their origins.

I mean, it's not concrete. But it does track. Unless there's something buried in The Infernal City. I haven't bothered to read the novels, sorry.

YurtTheSilentChief wrote: »

Well in the lore AD was a true faction

the others are made up by ZOS

I'd have to check, but I think all the names are reused. I mean, the Somerset Isles were always the Aldmeri Dominion... I think. Though the alliance with the Wood Elves in the second era is also old lore.

EP because


DC- orcs hate bretons and red guards, red guards are ripe for civil war and bretons are focused on pettier things.

AD- high elves don't like other races really, aryenne tries but no one cares, it wouldn't take much for the alliance to fall apart honestly.. wood elves aren't united. kajit are pretty cool though but with racist high elves i could see wood elf and kajjit leaving the alliance anyway and possibly joining one of the others.

EP nords and dark elves are pretty solid. argonians are the only weak link honestly, but any argonian betrayal would be dealth with pretty easily IMO.


lorewise though, AD falls last, but is attacked last.

DC falls pretty much soon as the king dies.

EP falls apart 2nd but they sorta join tiber teptim iirc.

I guess most of the votes was only based off of what is their most favorite faction, lol.

I've been a member of the Pact for over a year and never really got to like it but it just grew onto me so every new character just went straight to EP. Just a couple weeks ago I've went with a new fresh start to AD and I just love it. I consider the AD to be more tolerate towards outsiders, Ayrenn being actually open minded unlike Emeric or Jorunn. Also she seems to have a good vision of the future (oh that Orrery quest gave me chills).

It also seems that AD's races have the strongest bounds unlike Argonians and Dunmer for instance.

Runaan wrote: »

I guess most of the votes was only based off of what is their most favorite faction, lol.

I've been a member of the Pact for over a year and never really got to like it but it just grew onto me so every new character just went straight to EP. Just a couple weeks ago I've went with a new fresh start to AD and I just love it. I consider the AD to be more tolerate towards outsiders, Ayrenn being actually open minded unlike Emeric or Jorunn. Also she seems to have a good vision of the future (oh that Orrery quest gave me chills).

It also seems that AD's races have the strongest bounds unlike Argonians and Dunmer for instance.

The Dominion questline kinda oversells the stability of the Dominion. The wood elves and high elves have a stronger relationship, but the Khajiit have been at war with the bosmer for centuries, and will continue to skirmish well into the third era. So while Ayrenn paints a wonderful picture and the Bosmer and Khajiit have set aside their differences for the moment, they're no closer than the Nords and Dunmer or the Bretons and Redguards.

I'd say EP purely from the Tribunal point of view, there shouldn't even be a war.

starkerealm wrote: »

Runaan wrote: »

I guess most of the votes was only based off of what is their most favorite faction, lol.

I've been a member of the Pact for over a year and never really got to like it but it just grew onto me so every new character just went straight to EP. Just a couple weeks ago I've went with a new fresh start to AD and I just love it. I consider the AD to be more tolerate towards outsiders, Ayrenn being actually open minded unlike Emeric or Jorunn. Also she seems to have a good vision of the future (oh that Orrery quest gave me chills).

It also seems that AD's races have the strongest bounds unlike Argonians and Dunmer for instance.

The Dominion questline kinda oversells the stability of the Dominion. The wood elves and high elves have a stronger relationship, but the Khajiit have been at war with the bosmer for centuries, and will continue to skirmish well into the third era. So while Ayrenn paints a wonderful picture and the Bosmer and Khajiit have set aside their differences for the moment, they're no closer than the Nords and Dunmer or the Bretons and Redguards.

The Khajit and Bosmer just had a cold war over the Reaper's March after fighting over it. The Bosmer tried to keep the Khajit from encroaching on Valenwood. Khajit don't care to move into Valenwood, they care more about trading in Valenwood. They had their confrontations in the past but that's all in the past. Khajit merchants are important for the Bosmer.

The AD has young leaders and they're all pretty close. The Moon Hallowed and the Eyes of the Queen helped set up the close relationship between the AD leadership.

Bosmer King owes Ayrenn for winning his crown. She helped end a civil war in Valenwood.
The Wilderqueen is new and she is a former High Elf. She blessed Ayrenn's rule. Moon Hallowed helped her ascend.
The Mane is a woman and young. Eyes of the Queen and Moon Hallowed help her ascend to the Mane-ship.
The Silvenar and Green Lady are young, members of the young generation, too. Moon Hallowed got them married.


Ayrenn, Mane, Silvenar, Green Lady, King of Valenwood, and the Wilderking as all around the same age and the new blood in their factions. They're all highly idealistic, too.

The biggest threat to the alliance are a faction among the High Elf nobles and the Thalmor. AD is dependent on their young leaders to stick together.

NDwarf wrote: »

Um guys...

*SPOILER ALERT*

The 4th faction, the Imperials, are the most powerful and eventually win/unite all of Tamriel under Tiber Septim.

So in the end we're all losers.

And yet, where the hell are all the Imperial Legions? Imperial City should be ringed by at least 1 legion (5000 men) with other legions pinned down abroad fighting 3 factions AND deadra.

True but that does not happen until Tiber Septim rallies the colovians many many years from now. Tiber Septim isn't even born yet.
Right now the Imperial Empire is barely a shell of its former self. Scrambled, finicky and no where near the top their former military prowess. As of right now they are weakest faction with an incompetent monarch and riddled by inside corruption a la Mannimarco.

Darlgon wrote: »

Well, since your char plays all of them thru Cadwell...

None of them. I take Peanuts.

With the unseen voice loudly saying "Mwa mwa mwa, mwa mwa mwa-mwa mwa."

Enodoc wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

I can't find it right now. The weirdness with the Thalmor is that the first Pocket Guide to the Empire (which shipped with Redguard, IIRC) lists them as being founded in the 2e850s, which is about 300 years after the game is set. It's also the first mention of the Aldmeri Dominion in general. Nothing about them ever being dissolved.

@starkerealm That was retconned to be the founding date of the "Second Aldmeri Dominion" (c.2E 830), formed as a result of internal conflict in Valenwood. Ayrenn's Dominion (the "First Dominion") is supposed to have been long gone by then. Elsweyr was not part of the Second Dominion, and the Second Dominion dissolved when Tiber Septim conquered Tamriel.

"Thalmor" is likely a recurring term in Altmer politics, but are slightly different in each incarnation; in the First Dominion, they were the political representatives of Summerset; in the Second Dominion, they were the governing body of Valenwood; in the late Third Era, they were a supremacist Altmer political faction that rose to prominence during the Oblivion Crisis to become the ruling body of Summerset in the Fourth Era, and they formed the "Third Aldmeri Dominion" in 4E 29.

@Enodoc The line in The Great War makes me think the Thalmor had been active for some time.

My theory, assuming that the Fourth Era writer can be trusted (as an attempt to understand where the Thalmor came from), and the Second Era one can't (as the Pocket Guide is a very basic primer), is that the Thalmor has been an organization that functioned as political/administrative liaisons between the various High Elf governments. (Specifically the various cities, like Skywatch, Firsthold, ect.) (EDIT: This is a guess based on what we see of them in ESO, and the description of their role from the Pocket Guide.) That under the First and Second Dominions the Thalmor were tasked with being the liaison between the High Elf governments and their allies. That after the end of the Second Dominion, the Valenwood Thalmor existed "in exile" until being disbanded by Tiber Septum, as recorded in the Pocket Guide. But the core organization survived on the isles, due to Legate Quintius' description of the Thalmor's history.

I mean, it's possible we take the Pocket Guide at face value, and then say that Legate Quintius is wrong, and that the Thalmor were formed sometime immediately preceding the Oblivion Crisis, or as a response to it. But, then you'd think he'd have some comment about where they came from.

Normally, I'd take a look at who the authors of the various pieces are, but that's not really an option here, because all we have are the names and little else to go on. Also, there's remarkably little to work from beyond that. Also, because of the material at hand, is so limited... we're left with the academic equivalent of tea leaves. "It looks like this, but maybe it's the other thing?"

So, unless they go back in and start talking about a second founding of the Thalmor, the most reasonable reading is that it's the same organization.

That said, there was a definite change in the leadership and scope of the organization at the beginning of the 4th Era. I suspect senior leadership died in the Crystal Tower (or elsewhere during the crisis) leading to a changing of the guard for the Aldmeri supremacists we see running the show in Skyrim. But, I can't really evidence that beyond looking at a chronology, and the decision to frame the fall of Crystal Tower in The Rising Threat as the turning point.

Judging by background chatter in Oblivion, it's also reasonable to assume the Thalmor were already transitioning into their 4th Era leadership before the crisis. With stray lines about trouble in the Summerset Isles, before the Oblivion gates start opening up. If they were already looking for an opportunity to seize power then, it would make sense how they were ready to capitalize on the crisis when it happened.

But, again, if it was supposed to be a new organization, I don't think you'd see Quintius saying they'd always been a powerful, minority voice in Aldmeri politics. Unless, he was actually mistaken in that regard, because he conflated it with the historical organization, and never realized this was a new iteration. Which is possible, but, probably not likely.

I mean, when I first played Skyrim, I assumed that the Thalmor were, like the Resolutes, a new 4th Era faction, that formed in response to the crisis. But the in game literature doesn't seem to support that.

if you mean the strength of the alliance to act cooperatively then im not sure. but powerwise? EP have 3 living GODS on their side. sure they dont do much in the games but lets take a quick look at their feats. Vivec stopped a moon from plummeting into vivec city with a few words and suspended it there for his own use when sheogorath convinced it to fall at him. he also single handedly flooded his country and granted his whole race waterbreathing at the same time. Almalexia fought and banished Mehrunes Dagon single handedly (correct me if im wrong about the 1v1). Sotha sil umm.. he did alot of stuff... hes power is hard to gauge as he sorta stays out of sight most days=P.
Dunmer also waged war on the Dwemer and eventually defeated them even with their high tech deadly machinations. this was without 3 gods on their side.

Nords are just good at war and love fighting.

Argonians are capable of great power when the Hist decides to take control of them like a big hive mind and i quote

"Martin and the Empire didn't beat [Dagon] in Black Marsh, the An-Xileel did. When the gates opened, Argonians poured into Oblivion with such fury and might, Dagon's lieutenants had to close them."

which they later used the same method to anhilate the dunmer (sadly)

i know the hist doesnt want cyrodiil and i think the 3 tribunals also are not interested in the war. but the potential of these races imo far exceeds all others by far. the only contender are the high elves with their magickal prowess.