Unarmed Combat and The Monk!

Daymond · August 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I kinda think the unarmed line was a bit silly in the first place.
You're not going to punch through anyone's armor realistically even if it's cloth as they are cutting, casting or beating you to death.

Maybe fist weapons can be introduced but these would fall under dual wield or one hand

What if it had an iron plated cestus or even a bladed cestus as a weapon for hand to hand combat for stamina builds,or like in my earlier post where like staffs you equip gloves that give you fire,earth,lightning elemental attacks to go with a hand to hand combat magic skill line?

TheShadowScout · August 2015

The main point is, realistically a "brawling" weapon will never ever be as effective as a big chunk of steel with sharp and pointy bits.

Brass knuckles? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a sharp axehead to the face will...
Punch dagger? Sure, it'll hurt... but not as much as a foot of blade through your guts, which kinda is what they call "daggers" in ESO.
Armored glove punch? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a mace on a haft for more hitting power without having to pay attention to fragile fingerbones inside will...

And before someone comes with the "but magic..." thing again... if there -was- a spell that let people punch through plate, the same spell would be way more effective on weapons making them ignore armor... (which kinda is the "piercing" thing in the champion system is about once you think of it...).

I love ESO for -not- going overboard with implausibe stuff like oversized swords or bladeproof nudity utilizing armors, and so I say again - if we were to get any kind of "brawling" (and I would like to see that), I'd want to see it do only half the damage of other weapons at best, but make up for it with CC options. Then you have weak punches as quick attacks, and do your main damage with your class or such skills. Yelling "Hadouken" while doing some sun fire attacks or "Get Over Here" when using fiery grip as unarmed fighter would be optional though...

hueyb14_ESO · August 2015

An unarmed storm caller sounds fun!!

hueyb14_ESO · August 2015

And some people replying to this thread have no proper concept of how ninjas operate. A ninja isn't gonna punch your frik'n armored chest plate bozos.

Daymond · August 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The main point is, realistically a "brawling" weapon will never ever be as effective as a big chunk of steel with sharp and pointy bits.

Brass knuckles? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a sharp axehead to the face will...
Punch dagger? Sure, it'll hurt... but not as much as a foot of blade through your guts, which kinda is what they call "daggers" in ESO.
Armored glove punch? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a mace on a haft for more hitting power without having to pay attention to fragile fingerbones inside will...

And before someone comes with the "but magic..." thing again... if there -was- a spell that let people punch through plate, the same spell would be way more effective on weapons making them ignore armor... (which kinda is the "piercing" thing in the champion system is about once you think of it...).

I love ESO for -not- going overboard with implausibe stuff like oversized swords or bladeproof nudity utilizing armors, and so I say again - if we were to get any kind of "brawling" (and I would like to see that), I'd want to see it do only half the damage of other weapons at best, but make up for it with CC options. Then you have weak punches as quick attacks, and do your main damage with your class or such skills. Yelling "Hadouken" while doing some sun fire attacks or "Get Over Here" when using fiery grip as unarmed fighter would be optional though...

So a skill line that atacks fast and cc well but a little lower damage then other skill lines, I could get behind that. What do you think about the weapon being for this skill line elemental gloves that like staffs, change the skills a little bit depending on the element you choose to use? This adds another magical skill line for people to fight as close quarter mage fighters without going with a stamina build, this skill line will probably synergize well with other magicka classes and skill lines. Which would make quite a few interesting builds. What do you think?

Edit

Some skill ideas are

a gap closer that does less dmg then other skills but depending on the glove you are wearing there could be a debuf like a slow or area affect dmg.

A cc that slows and does a little bit of dmg over time

A cc that stuns or knockback depending on the elemental glove you have equiped

Low to medium attack that is fast and inexpensive

Some kind of buff that increases speed and dodge speed and/or a self-heal

What does everyone think?

jorgeh401b14_ESO · August 2015

The Unarmed Combat skill line is called werewolf.

OGLezard · August 2015

SedoUmbra wrote: »

No one else thing it's really petty that people leave day one because they didn't see and hand-to-hand skill? I mean, did they play previous Elder Scrolls games or nah?

You are aware @SedoUmbra that hand to hand was in the other ones, granted not the greatest but you could STILL make it work(skyrim had it right, damage attached to armor rating) People have their own preferences, and how they want to play. When their favorite play style was not even an option, yea they decided to not play. Do you fault them for that?

OGLezard · August 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The main point is, realistically a "brawling" weapon will never ever be as effective as a big chunk of steel with sharp and pointy bits.

Brass knuckles? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a sharp axehead to the face will...
Punch dagger? Sure, it'll hurt... but not as much as a foot of blade through your guts, which kinda is what they call "daggers" in ESO.
Armored glove punch? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a mace on a haft for more hitting power without having to pay attention to fragile fingerbones inside will...

And before someone comes with the "but magic..." thing again... if there -was- a spell that let people punch through plate, the same spell would be way more effective on weapons making them ignore armor... (which kinda is the "piercing" thing in the champion system is about once you think of it...).

I love ESO for -not- going overboard with implausibe stuff like oversized swords or bladeproof nudity utilizing armors, and so I say again - if we were to get any kind of "brawling" (and I would like to see that), I'd want to see it do only half the damage of other weapons at best, but make up for it with CC options. Then you have weak punches as quick attacks, and do your main damage with your class or such skills. Yelling "Hadouken" while doing some sun fire attacks or "Get Over Here" when using fiery grip as unarmed fighter would be optional though...

Hand to hand masters are good at wearing their opponents resources out and controlling the flow of battle through stylish fighting. They do not need to punch through armor, just control the fight. Their mobility comes from their ability to dodge attacks because they are not tied to wielding a weapon so they can flow better....... come on lol there are all kinds of ways someone with hand to hand can beat someone with armor and weapons...... bruce lee anyone? jet li..... freaking chuck norris.......

jorgeh401b14_ESO wrote: »

The Unarmed Combat skill line is called werewolf.

no just no...........

TheShadowScout · August 2015

Daymond wrote: »

So a skill line that atacks fast and cc well but a little lower damage then other skill lines, I could get behind that. What do you think about the weapon being for this skill line elemental gloves that like staffs, change the skills a little bit depending on the element you choose to use?

I'd say, use cesti, punch daggers, brass knuckles, whatever, and slap sone hefty enchantment on it instead...

Daymond wrote: »

This adds another magical skill line for people to fight as close quarter mage fighters without going with a stamina build, this skill line will probably synergize well with other magicka classes and skill lines. Which would make quite a few interesting builds. What do you think?

The thing is, mage fighters are not really supposed to be all that close combatty. It's a bit like close combat archery... if you have an weapon with range, it'd be suboptimal to use it in melee range unless you really, really have to.
A "melee magical fighter" I'd envision as stamina-heavy to balanced build with using a brawling skill line and every so often some class skill (remember stamina morphs!) as "special move"...

Now, a mixed skill line, say "one-handed and wand", with half stamina melee strikes and half short to midrange wand (or rune, or whatever) attack and AoE spells... that I would love to see, for the "Spellsword" feel.

Next I'd also allow wands for destruction magic too, including dual-wielding (no new skill, just alternates the wand type for castings - and allows one more set piece)

(and of course I'd also want an alternate casting weapon for both destro and resto magic, some "spell focus", as alternate option to staves... depending on racial style, it could be holy amulets, shaman rattles, ornate spellbooks, gemmed skulls, ayleid crystals, etc.; but that's a little off topic here)

Daymond wrote: »

-snip-
What does everyone think?

I'd prefer to see stuff like that for a purely unarmed skill line, without the magic.

Gap closer?
- Charge and WWE-style clothesline for an added knockdown...

Slow?
- Boot to the knee!

Stun?
- Knee to the crotch! (can we haz double stun time if used on male characters?

)

Fast attack?
- Jab style light attack.

Medium attack?
- Windup roundhouse blow heavy attack.

Buff?
- Something like the 2H "rally", with "fighting movie protagonist rage buildup scream" animation?

Blind?
- Grab a handful of dirt from the ground, throw in eyes.

...by my count, that'd be light & heavy attack, and five possible skills. That's the kind of "brawling" skill lijne I'd love to see...

Daymond · August 2015

I like all those ideas too. To be honest I do not really care if its a stamina skill line like yours or magicka like mine. I just want some kind of hand to hand or brawler type combat skill line!

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I kinda think the unarmed line was a bit silly in the first place.
You're not going to punch through anyone's armor realistically even if it's cloth as they are cutting, casting or beating you to death.

Maybe fist weapons can be introduced but these would fall under dual wield or one hand

This is true, but hand-to-hand combat is still important and valid in armored combat. Jiu Jitsu and Wrestling are both two examples of this. Knowing how to crank someone's arm, pin them, topple them, etc are actually an important part of armored training historically. As for punching someone who has a sword or a spear, I agree that's a bit silly from a realism standpoint. Throwing in a few hand to hand techniques though would actually be pretty cool, like a Leg Sweep or Takedown, some kind of pinning move, and a punch that would morph into a hilt or pommel strike if you're wielding something. Just my thoughts on it.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2015

OGLezard wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The main point is, realistically a "brawling" weapon will never ever be as effective as a big chunk of steel with sharp and pointy bits.

Brass knuckles? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a sharp axehead to the face will...
Punch dagger? Sure, it'll hurt... but not as much as a foot of blade through your guts, which kinda is what they call "daggers" in ESO.
Armored glove punch? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a mace on a haft for more hitting power without having to pay attention to fragile fingerbones inside will...

And before someone comes with the "but magic..." thing again... if there -was- a spell that let people punch through plate, the same spell would be way more effective on weapons making them ignore armor... (which kinda is the "piercing" thing in the champion system is about once you think of it...).

I love ESO for -not- going overboard with implausibe stuff like oversized swords or bladeproof nudity utilizing armors, and so I say again - if we were to get any kind of "brawling" (and I would like to see that), I'd want to see it do only half the damage of other weapons at best, but make up for it with CC options. Then you have weak punches as quick attacks, and do your main damage with your class or such skills. Yelling "Hadouken" while doing some sun fire attacks or "Get Over Here" when using fiery grip as unarmed fighter would be optional though...

Hand to hand masters are good at wearing their opponents resources out and controlling the flow of battle through stylish fighting. They do not need to punch through armor, just control the fight. Their mobility comes from their ability to dodge attacks because they are not tied to wielding a weapon so they can flow better....... come on lol there are all kinds of ways someone with hand to hand can beat someone with armor and weapons...... bruce lee anyone? jet li..... freaking chuck norris.......

jorgeh401b14_ESO wrote: »

The Unarmed Combat skill line is called werewolf.

no just no...........

In fairness, all those things you say a hand to hand master can do, a person wielding a spear, sword, etc can do. Being 'Stylish' really isn't helpful to begin with for the most part.

Daymond · August 2015

Please devs give us some kind of pure stamina brawler type skill line or hand to hand combat mage skill line. Maybe even a mix of both. I just want it viable to punch people to death.

Also

To all devs you are more then welcome to put your 2cents in about a brawler type skill line.

As long as somewhere in your post you confirm we are getting one.

OGLezard · August 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

OGLezard wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

The main point is, realistically a "brawling" weapon will never ever be as effective as a big chunk of steel with sharp and pointy bits.

Brass knuckles? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a sharp axehead to the face will...
Punch dagger? Sure, it'll hurt... but not as much as a foot of blade through your guts, which kinda is what they call "daggers" in ESO.
Armored glove punch? Sure it'll hurt... but not as much as a mace on a haft for more hitting power without having to pay attention to fragile fingerbones inside will...

And before someone comes with the "but magic..." thing again... if there -was- a spell that let people punch through plate, the same spell would be way more effective on weapons making them ignore armor... (which kinda is the "piercing" thing in the champion system is about once you think of it...).

I love ESO for -not- going overboard with implausibe stuff like oversized swords or bladeproof nudity utilizing armors, and so I say again - if we were to get any kind of "brawling" (and I would like to see that), I'd want to see it do only half the damage of other weapons at best, but make up for it with CC options. Then you have weak punches as quick attacks, and do your main damage with your class or such skills. Yelling "Hadouken" while doing some sun fire attacks or "Get Over Here" when using fiery grip as unarmed fighter would be optional though...

Hand to hand masters are good at wearing their opponents resources out and controlling the flow of battle through stylish fighting. They do not need to punch through armor, just control the fight. Their mobility comes from their ability to dodge attacks because they are not tied to wielding a weapon so they can flow better....... come on lol there are all kinds of ways someone with hand to hand can beat someone with armor and weapons...... bruce lee anyone? jet li..... freaking chuck norris.......

jorgeh401b14_ESO wrote: »

The Unarmed Combat skill line is called werewolf.

no just no...........

In fairness, all those things you say a hand to hand master can do, a person wielding a spear, sword, etc can do. Being 'Stylish' really isn't helpful to begin with for the most part.

I know any of them can be stylish but I am using that as a reason they don't have to get through armor via their finess with fighting allows them to dodge things etc etc. It was a very vague explanation wrapped into one word :P

Zeth163 · August 2015

maybe a couple aikido based skills like reverse damage or negate damage

usrevenge · August 2015

have unarmed and non-magic staff!!!

it would actually add something to woodworking skill line as a bonus.

SedoUmbra · August 2015

OGLezard wrote: »

SedoUmbra wrote: »

No one else thing it's really petty that people leave day one because they didn't see and hand-to-hand skill? I mean, did they play previous Elder Scrolls games or nah?

You are aware @SedoUmbra that hand to hand was in the other ones, granted not the greatest but you could STILL make it work(skyrim had it right, damage attached to armor rating) People have their own preferences, and how they want to play. When their favorite play style was not even an option, yea they decided to not play. Do you fault them for that?

I've played all TES games since Morrowind. Morrowind and Oblivion were set up differently to ESO and Skyrim. Skyrim didn't have upgrades for Hand to hand except Khajiit-ness and enchantment damage bonuses. Can you think of 5 original abilities and 6 original passives for hand to hand combat for ESO? Bearing in mind practicality, animations and balancing. It would be terrible. More people would probably complain about it being done badly as apposed to it not being done at all.

That all aside, no, I do not fault people for being unhappy that their favourite thing isn't in the game. Yes, I fault them for giving up a game because they can't get themselves killed over and over by NPC mages. I loved Skyrim, the best game I ever played. But my favourite type of weapon (based on the timezone of course) is throwing knives. Second is polearms. Neither of those are in Skyrim. I play a game called Warframe. I started playing and was annoyed that there wasn't any sword and shield weapons. I played it making use of what was offered and 2 years later there are now 2 sword and shield weapons. I hope you can see the logic behind my short digression. Most games aren't updated as much as Warframe is but still, I think it is ridiculously to play a game for minutes to see your favourite thing isn't included. For a more relevant example I like to be a necromancer in TES games. It's pretty much all I did in Skyrim. Necromancy is not available for player use in Elder Scrolls Online. Did I say, "Screw, that then." and play Evolve instead? Yes, but only because a new update was out, and I went back to ESO after.

Daymond · August 2015

Does anyone have any more good ideas for a hand to hand combat skill line that has not already been said. I am having fun reading the ideas and thinking how well they would work with othe class and weapon skill lines.

Volkodav · August 2015

I've played unarmed and its quite fun thwacking people down with your fists.No problem. Lol. Just unequip your weapons and put on a robe n hood.There ya go!
(they could make it a skill line too.Hand to hand combat,with skills.Like your abilities would get higher the more you use them..

Alucardo · August 2015

An adept sorcerer, casting wards of protection, blasts of lightning from his hands to shock his foes, swapping to staff in order to shoot projectiles of energy at his target.. while some guy punches him in the face. Yes, I would like to see this in the game +1

Dekkameron · August 2015

I feel that instead of introducing a new weapon type, they should instead add in another world skill set called "Zombie" and you can catch "zombieness" from other zombies if they bite you much in the same way as werewolves/vamps but instead of going to some shrine to start off the skill-loine quest you get a timer and after 24 hours you turn into one.

Make the abilities like the npc ones and cost no skill points and have the vomiting on people and shouting "BRRAAAAIIINNNSSSSSS!" and have a -50% walking speed debuff and the inability to use weapons, plus npcs except Priests of Arkay (which can cure you for gold) won't talk to you and guards will try and kill you on sight.

Acrolas · August 2015

Creature-based fist weapons are probably the most practical. Fist of the Strangler, Fist of the Serpent... pretty much anything that can have poison damage associated with it. That should be the stand-out feature of this class of weapon - more poison damage than physical damage.

Daymond · August 2015

Acrolas wrote: »

Creature-based fist weapons are probably the most practical. Fist of the Strangler, Fist of the Serpent... pretty much anything that can have poison damage associated with it. That should be the stand-out feature of this class of weapon - more poison damage than physical damage.

Poison Fists does not sound bad at all.

What kind a fist weapon would this poison weapon use, spiked brass knuckles or something like that? Also what kind of skills would be available ?

Mojmir · August 2015

bloodsport style, stick your hand in glue, then in broken glass

Daymond · August 2015

Mojmir wrote: »

bloodsport style, stick your hand in glue, then in broken glass

You would have to keep reapplying the glue and glass because when you start to attack things if the glass does not break or get knocked off it is going to go deep into your fists and not hurt wharever your attacking.

But good idea still sounds like fun!

NewBlacksmurf · August 2015

Daymond wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I kinda think the unarmed line was a bit silly in the first place.
You're not going to punch through anyone's armor realistically even if it's cloth as they are cutting, casting or beating you to death.

Maybe fist weapons can be introduced but these would fall under dual wield or one hand

What if it had an iron plated cestus or even a bladed cestus as a weapon for hand to hand combat for stamina builds,or like in my earlier post where like staffs you equip gloves that give you fire,earth,lightning elemental attacks to go with a hand to hand combat magic skill line?

IF you had all that is kill you before you get within distance. That's the point many being realistic in comments.
If these things were to be added they'd perform in respects to how they compare to other items but again, every class has magic and ranged options so I'd kill you before you got close to take 25% of my life if that.

Regarding the hand Magic....that already exists. All classes have spells or abilities that cast without weapons so it's already in the game

Mojmir · August 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Daymond wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I kinda think the unarmed line was a bit silly in the first place.
You're not going to punch through anyone's armor realistically even if it's cloth as they are cutting, casting or beating you to death.

Maybe fist weapons can be introduced but these would fall under dual wield or one hand

What if it had an iron plated cestus or even a bladed cestus as a weapon for hand to hand combat for stamina builds,or like in my earlier post where like staffs you equip gloves that give you fire,earth,lightning elemental attacks to go with a hand to hand combat magic skill line?

IF you had all that is kill you before you get within distance. That's the point many being realistic in comments.
If these things were to be added they'd perform in respects to how they compare to other items but again, every class has magic and ranged options so I'd kill you before you got close to take 25% of my life if that.

Regarding the hand Magic....that already exists. All classes have spells or abilities that cast without weapons so it's already in the game

monk class would be catching arrows and deflecting everything. lets not forget the quivering palm lol