The Death of WWs

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

First off, let me start by saying that ZOS has completely destroyed WWs. I urge ZOS to revert the changes as it does nothing good for players who are one or who plan to be one. Since the release of the latest IC patch notes in PTS, there has been a quite a number of pitiful cries from Vampires when they are not greatly affected by the changes in the upcoming major patch compared to WWs.
I will copy-paste some of my previous posts from other threads as those are my points as to why I feel that ZOS has obliterated WWs.
Here are the reasons why.

It's just not the same as being a WW as compared to a Vamp. Regardless of combat environment (PvP or PvE), we WWs are forced to use WW-only skills while in beast form (the opposite is also true). Vamps face no shortcomings from this. They can synergise class/weapon skills with vamp abilities on-the-go plus, their damage mitigation skill (Mist Form for example) is highly reliable. WWs are indeed sub-par when compared to what vamps can do.
And I must add, in Skyrim (yes I know this isn't Skyrim 2/Skyrim online but for the sake of explanation, hear this) Vamps are required to transform in able to use vamp abilities. Thus, Vamps and WWs in Skyrim are well on par together. Different playstyles yes (WW for stam users and Vamp for magicka users), but they are both viable to be utilised.

And for people saying that 'but vampires have the downside of receiving extra dmg from fire abilities/spells', you have to admit that it is barely a downside. Anyone can nullify the extra dmg easily from fire especially in the next major patch where the damage is reduced to 25%. Don't tell me you're having a hard time to keep your regen up as stated because surprise surprise, Vamps have decent healing abilities plus you get to synergise weapon/class healing abilities to replenish yourselves without any major downside. That is utterly ridiculous.
You might think that it's only fair that WWs have to slot in a WW skill to gain the passive but do remember that Vamps don't have to slot an ULTIMATE to get their passives while WWs have no choice but to replace useful Class Ultimates with WW transformation just to get the additional stam regen. Lackluster? Indeed my dear friend.

'But you can't get something for free without downsides omgwtfbbq QQ'. I partly agree on this one but please consider that people who chose WWs or Vamps DO go for their passives, it is painfully obvious as to why one would want to become one of either. Plus, vamps have multiple useful passives to be utilised together in-tandem to one another while WWs currently have only one buff under the influence of lycanthropy in human form. To get the full passive line from WW requires you to transform into one but remember that WWs are restricted to WW only skills in WW form and no synergies are available (Heck, even WWs don't have their own ultimate in WW form).
The only workaround on this issue is to impose the 25% extra damage to poisons to WWs in human form while returning the extra stam regen in human form. That is my suggestion. To my WW brothers and sisters, I apologise on the rather awful suggestion but that is the only win-win situation which can be achieved to shut the pitiful cries and QQs of the Vamps (despite Vamps having more passives than WWs even with said 'downside' applied onto WWs).

WWs are being beaten down to its worst. The current 'boosts' such as extra 'armour' provided from transforming into a WW is basically nothing, the extra stamina is barely considered extra as the cost for using WW abilities is ridiculously expensive. The delay from feeding renders us WWs to be extremely vulnerable and last but not the very least, WWs can't synergise any weapon/class abilities like how Vamps can. You know this to be true.

I urge ZOS to tweak the changes to what I've put out on the table here. Players will not be interested completely in becoming a WW as the ulti cost to transform into one is excruciatingly high and the work done to maintain oneself in WW form is too much. However, discussing about beast form is another different matter so I'll just leave this here for now. I do appreciate your views and concerns regarding the proposed change to WWs so please lay them down here as it only gives us all better insight on how to tackle this problem.

starkerealm · August 2015

Okay, so... ZoS revising the systems so that players who are werewolves have to, you know, actually be werewolves. Beings that have been horribly cursed with awesome powers by an ambivalent and slightly snide god, so that they can transform into monstrous killing machines.

The death knell for them is that they'll actually have to be monsters? You know, like they were supposed to be anyway?

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Okay, so... ZoS revising the systems so that players who are werewolves have to, you know, actually be werewolves. Beings that have been horribly cursed with awesome powers by an ambivalent and slightly snide god, so that they can transform into monstrous killing machines.

The death knell for them is that they'll actually have to be monsters? You know, like they were supposed to be anyway?

Sneaky-Snurr wrote:

However, discussing about beast form is another different matter so I'll just leave this here for now.

@starkerealm Like I said, transforming into one is another different matter. I'm mainly talking about the passive change because apparently, lots of Vamps QQ-ed a lot on WWs having a really small advantage by having a 'free' stam regen buff. Do not divert the actual matter discussed at hand (which in this case, the stam regen buff).

I find it amusing that you'd say that. 'Monstrous killing machines' when all I heard is 'Can't wait to see WWs on the battlefield. They're free kills you know!

' and sadly most of the statements like that are true. WWs are lackluster compared to what Vampires can do.

Akavir_Sentinel · August 2015

You mean WW's and Vamps actually have to be WW's and Vamps now? Oh the horror!

starkerealm · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Like I said, transforming into one is another different matter. I'm mainly talking about the passive change because apparently, lots of Vamps QQ-ed a lot on WWs having a really small advantage by having a 'free' stam regen buff.

Let's be honest. That stamina bonus being always on was just stupid. Right?

From a game design standpoint. There was no reason to be human. Either you were a vampire or you were a werewolf, and there was no reason not to be a wolf. Hell, the 1.6 PTS templates simply defaulted you to being a werewolf because, "why not?"

Werewolves are supposed to be cursed... but for ESO, there isn't any downside right now.

And, that needed to change.

Going forward, if you want to actually play a wolf, you're not being penalized at all. If you just wanted to be a werewolf for a stat upgrade? Well, that is going away. And frankly shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Let's be honest. That stamina bonus being always on was just stupid. Right?

From a game design standpoint. There was no reason to be human. Either you were a vampire or you were a werewolf, and there was no reason not to be a wolf. Hell, the 1.6 PTS templates simply defaulted you to being a werewolf because, "why not?"

Werewolves are supposed to be cursed... but for ESO, there isn't any downside right now.

And, that needed to change.

Going forward, if you want to actually play a wolf, you're not being penalized at all. If you just wanted to be a werewolf for a stat upgrade? Well, that is going away. And frankly shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.

@starkerealm Hence why I put forth my suggestion where 25% poison weakness is also applied to WWs in human form. I agreed on having to put a downside for WWs since it is only fair. I'm trying to find common grounds with how Vamps work. Didn't you read my whole post my dear friend?

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

You mean WW's and Vamps actually have to be WW's and Vamps now? Oh the horror!

@Akavir_Sentinel Vamps already are one after their ritual while WWs aren't. Even in movies or anything related to WWs, human beings infected with lycanthropy DO have advantages over a normal human being. Hence why stam regen is perfectly viable fantasy-wise speaking. See the logic there? Such horror. :S

Prof_Bawbag · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Okay, so... ZoS revising the systems so that players who are werewolves have to, you know, actually be werewolves. Beings that have been horribly cursed with awesome powers by an ambivalent and slightly snide god, so that they can transform into monstrous killing machines.

The death knell for them is that they'll actually have to be monsters? You know, like they were supposed to be anyway?

Sneaky-Snurr wrote:

However, discussing about beast form is another different matter so I'll just leave this here for now.

@starkerealm Like I said, transforming into one is another different matter. I'm mainly talking about the passive change because apparently, lots of Vamps QQ-ed a lot on WWs having a really small advantage by having a 'free' stam regen buff. Do not divert the actual matter discussed at hand (which in this case, the stam regen buff).

I find it amusing that you'd say that. 'Monstrous killing machines' when all I heard is 'Can't wait to see WWs on the battlefield. They're free kills you know! ' and sadly most of the statements like that are true. WWs are lackluster compared to what Vampires can do.

Doesn't matter which way you dress it up, your entire argument is - that a WW now has to actually be a WW.

Akavir_Sentinel · August 2015

Saying you want to be a WW without having to slot any of the abilities or actually be a WW is like saying you want the sword and shield passives and skills, but you don't want to actually have to use a sword and shield. This change should have happened a long time ago.

starkerealm · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I find it amusing that you'd say that. 'Monstrous killing machines' when all I heard is 'Can't wait to see WWs on the battlefield. They're free kills you know! ' and sadly most of the statements like that are true. WWs are lackluster compared to what Vampires can do.

Actually, werewolves are really damn good, once you've got the practice in with them. As in "solo group content easily," good. And the 1.7 patch is actually making them stronger while transformed, with a weapon damage up and more armor. They are hilariously lethal.

IF.

You know how to use them.

If you don't, then I could see where someone would say they're lack luster. But, in the right hands the hit like a Mack truck and are really tanky.

EDIT: Packs of experienced werewolves are probably one of the more dangerous things you can face in PvP (not counting derps who are animation canceling for oneshot kills on anything that moves). Granted, there aren't a lot of them. But the crap they can do is unreal.

Ahzek · August 2015

The stam regen buff was no WW thing. It was a non-vampire thing. People HAD to be WW if they were no vampire because they got free stuffs (unless ofc they want to gimp themselfes on purpose).
ZOS changed it so in order to benefit from being a WW at all you have to actually use the WW ultimate. This makes perfect sense and hardly is a nerf to WW, since they will still have the stam regen buff (only on 1 bar though), but it is instead a nerf to everyone who just was WW for the regen.
Vampires on the other hand always had a drawback attached to them and now they are restricted even more. Frankly i dont understand your reasoning.
WW and vampire simply are supposed to function differently. A vampire is an undead humanoid with his thirst for blood and all that comes with it, including powers to use in combat. WWs are regular people with the ability to transform into savage killing machines. Both these concepts are rather well reflected in ESO imo, even thought the savage killing machine part of WW could need some tweaking.

Note that I never was a vampire in my entire ESO live (except 15 minutes on PTS) and that i have taken advantage of the WW stam regen ever since i heard about it.

Another sidenote: In the original Skyrim, as well as in Morrowind and Oblivion vampires always had access to their vampiric powers. However in those games they only cosisted of a weak drain live spell and a bunch of passive boosts and penalties.

danno8 · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Let's be honest. That stamina bonus being always on was just stupid. Right?

From a game design standpoint. There was no reason to be human. Either you were a vampire or you were a werewolf, and there was no reason not to be a wolf. Hell, the 1.6 PTS templates simply defaulted you to being a werewolf because, "why not?"

Werewolves are supposed to be cursed... but for ESO, there isn't any downside right now.

And, that needed to change.

Going forward, if you want to actually play a wolf, you're not being penalized at all. If you just wanted to be a werewolf for a stat upgrade? Well, that is going away. And frankly shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.

@starkerealm Hence why I put forth my suggestion where 25% poison weakness is also applied to WWs in human form. I agreed on having to put a downside for WWs since it is only fair. I'm trying to find common grounds with how Vamps work. Didn't you read my whole post my dear friend?

I was surprised they didn't go this route. Seemed a simple way to combat the "no reason to NOT be a WW" problem.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Actually, werewolves are really damn good, once you've got the practice in with them. As in "solo group content easily," good. And the 1.7 patch is actually making them stronger while transformed, with a weapon damage up and more armor. They are hilariously lethal.

IF.

You know how to use them.

If you don't, then I could see where someone would say they're lack luster. But, in the right hands the hit like a Mack truck and are really tanky.

In fact, I have used WW form and yes they're lethal.. for a few seconds. I agree that they do hit like a truck/train/ship, my WW can hit 11k per howl of agony but their sustain is incredibily laughable. Compare Vamps and WWs head-to-head on sustainability, who'd fare better? You guessed it right.

DrunkenGryffinInn · August 2015

If you don't play the WW then get rid of the WW and just add points in champion "mooncalf" to replace the 15% stamina regen. Simple, problem solved.

UrQuan · August 2015

They made being a werewolf who actually uses the werewolf transformation more attractive, while making being a werewolf purely for the bonus to stamina regen a thing of the past.

As someone with many werewolf characters (primarily because of fond memories of the Companions questline in Skyrim) I fail to see the problem with that. They could have taken a different route to balance out the bonus to stamina regen, but most other methods would have generated more whines from the people who were just taking advantage of it. Giving them an always-on penalty of some sort to balance out the always-on stamina regen would be just as fair as making them slot the ultimate, but it would have resulted in at least as many complaints from the faux-fur non-transforming WW crowd, and it would have been worse for the WWs who actually want to use the transformation.

So, given that it was clearly unfair to give WWs a benefit over normal humans without any penalty to balance it out, who do you try to please? The players who just want a stat boost, or the players who actually want to play as a werewolf? The solution ZOS came up with may not be ideal, but it's clearly designed for the actual werewolf players rather than the faux ones.

starkerealm · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Actually, werewolves are really damn good, once you've got the practice in with them. As in "solo group content easily," good. And the 1.7 patch is actually making them stronger while transformed, with a weapon damage up and more armor. They are hilariously lethal.

IF.

You know how to use them.

If you don't, then I could see where someone would say they're lack luster. But, in the right hands the hit like a Mack truck and are really tanky.

In fact, I have used WW form and yes they're lethal.. for a few seconds. I agree that they do hit like a truck/train/ship, my WW can hit 11k per howl of agony but their sustain is incredibily laughable. Compare Vamps and WWs head-to-head on sustainability, who'd fare better? You guessed it right.

If you're in a war of attrition as a werewolf, something has gone very, very, wrong.

starkerealm · August 2015

danno8 wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

@starkerealm Hence why I put forth my suggestion where 25% poison weakness is also applied to WWs in human form. I agreed on having to put a downside for WWs since it is only fair. I'm trying to find common grounds with how Vamps work. Didn't you read my whole post my dear friend?

I was surprised they didn't go this route. Seemed a simple way to combat the "no reason to NOT be a WW" problem.

I was actually kinda worried they would. Punishing everyone for the players who were abusing it.

danno8 · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

They made being a werewolf who actually uses the werewolf transformation more attractive, while making being a werewolf purely for the bonus to stamina regen a thing of the past.

As someone with many werewolf characters (primarily because of fond memories of the Companions questline in Skyrim) I fail to see the problem with that. They could have taken a different route to balance out the bonus to stamina regen, but most other methods would have generated more whines from the people who were just taking advantage of it. Giving them an always-on penalty of some sort to balance out the always-on stamina regen would be just as fair as making them slot the ultimate, but it would have resulted in at least as many complaints from the faux-fur non-transforming WW crowd, and it would have been worse for the WWs who actually want to use the transformation.

So, given that it was clearly unfair to give WWs a benefit over normal humans without any penalty to balance it out, who do you try to please? The players who just want a stat boost, or the players who actually want to play as a werewolf? The solution ZOS came up with may not be ideal, but it's clearly designed for the actual werewolf players rather than the faux ones.

starkerealm wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

@starkerealm Hence why I put forth my suggestion where 25% poison weakness is also applied to WWs in human form. I agreed on having to put a downside for WWs since it is only fair. I'm trying to find common grounds with how Vamps work. Didn't you read my whole post my dear friend?

I was surprised they didn't go this route. Seemed a simple way to combat the "no reason to NOT be a WW" problem.

I was actually kinda worried they would. Punishing everyone for the players who were abusing it.

I can see it that way, but to me it makes more sense. You ARE a werewolf after all, and not just when you turn into one. But the way they did it was fine with me too. I don't care too much either way.

Mdl518 · August 2015

Sounds like something that should of been done along time ago....I won't act like a vet in this game because I am not but all I ever see are people complaining on these forums about this strength and that weakness....IMO every class should have their OWN weaknesses that make them unique as that class. Same goes for vampire and werewolf. 15% Stan Regen at all times? Seems a little funny considering werewolves have been historically known to have no control over when they change or what they do when they change, so an insane stat like that and no major drawbacks?....idk this just all seems funny to me

imredneckson · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

First off, let me start by saying that ZOS has completely destroyed WWs. I urge ZOS to revert the changes as it does nothing good for players who are one or who plan to be one. Since the release of the latest IC patch notes in PTS, there has been a quite a number of pitiful cries from Vampires when they are not greatly affected by the changes in the upcoming major patch compared to WWs.
I will copy-paste some of my previous posts from other threads as those are my points as to why I feel that ZOS has obliterated WWs.
Here are the reasons why.

It's just not the same as being a WW as compared to a Vamp. Regardless of combat environment (PvP or PvE), we WWs are forced to use WW-only skills while in beast form (the opposite is also true). Vamps face no shortcomings from this. They can synergise class/weapon skills with vamp abilities on-the-go plus, their damage mitigation skill (Mist Form for example) is highly reliable. WWs are indeed sub-par when compared to what vamps can do.
And I must add, in Skyrim (yes I know this isn't Skyrim 2/Skyrim online but for the sake of explanation, hear this) Vamps are required to transform in able to use vamp abilities. Thus, Vamps and WWs in Skyrim are well on par together. Different playstyles yes (WW for stam users and Vamp for magicka users), but they are both viable to be utilised.

And for people saying that 'but vampires have the downside of receiving extra dmg from fire abilities/spells', you have to admit that it is barely a downside. Anyone can nullify the extra dmg easily from fire especially in the next major patch where the damage is reduced to 25%. Don't tell me you're having a hard time to keep your regen up as stated because surprise surprise, Vamps have decent healing abilities plus you get to synergise weapon/class healing abilities to replenish yourselves without any major downside. That is utterly ridiculous.
You might think that it's only fair that WWs have to slot in a WW skill to gain the passive but do remember that Vamps don't have to slot an ULTIMATE to get their passives while WWs have no choice but to replace useful Class Ultimates with WW transformation just to get the additional stam regen. Lackluster? Indeed my dear friend.

'But you can't get something for free without downsides omgwtfbbq QQ'. I partly agree on this one but please consider that people who chose WWs or Vamps DO go for their passives, it is painfully obvious as to why one would want to become one of either. Plus, vamps have multiple useful passives to be utilised together in-tandem to one another while WWs currently have only one buff under the influence of lycanthropy in human form. To get the full passive line from WW requires you to transform into one but remember that WWs are restricted to WW only skills in WW form and no synergies are available (Heck, even WWs don't have their own ultimate in WW form).
The only workaround on this issue is to impose the 25% extra damage to poisons to WWs in human form while returning the extra stam regen in human form. That is my suggestion. To my WW brothers and sisters, I apologise on the rather awful suggestion but that is the only win-win situation which can be achieved to shut the pitiful cries and QQs of the Vamps (despite Vamps having more passives than WWs even with said 'downside' applied onto WWs).

WWs are being beaten down to its worst. The current 'boosts' such as extra 'armour' provided from transforming into a WW is basically nothing, the extra stamina is barely considered extra as the cost for using WW abilities is ridiculously expensive. The delay from feeding renders us WWs to be extremely vulnerable and last but not the very least, WWs can't synergise any weapon/class abilities like how Vamps can. You know this to be true.

I urge ZOS to tweak the changes to what I've put out on the table here. Players will not be interested completely in becoming a WW as the ulti cost to transform into one is excruciatingly high and the work done to maintain oneself in WW form is too much. However, discussing about beast form is another different matter so I'll just leave this here for now. I do appreciate your views and concerns regarding the proposed change to WWs so please lay them down here as it only gives us all better insight on how to tackle this problem.

I agree, I don't play WW anymore because I get a larger advantage fighting as a vamp. WWs have a 15% increase in stamina regen while in combat but vamps get a 10% increase in stamina and magicka at all times. At least give WWs powers while in human form like they run faster they hit harder with melee attack and while in WW form let them be blood hound being able to smell out stealthers and NBs ( since mage light and detect pots dont pop us out of stealth anymore it'll be to easy to hide pls give us NBs a challange). WWs are becoming less and less common because vamps are superior.

Pros
WW-15% increase to stamina regen while in combat
Cons
-Can only use powers while in WW form
-WWs are easy to target
-Very costly ult
-Has to lvl skills in WW form

Pros
-Vamps get 10% regen increase for stam and mag
- Can lvl vamp skill just by fighting
- can choose what ult you want and still have vamp skills
- Damage migration
- Mist form is a life saver
- Can move faster stealthed
Cons
-Dawnbreaker
-Fire (which is getting nerfed later)

Vamp looks like a much better option than WW

starkerealm · August 2015

imredneckson wrote: »

WWs have a 15% increase in stamina regen while in combat...

Minor nitpick. After 1.7, all of those in combat regen bonuses will apply at all times. So werewolves (who have the ultimate slotted) will simply have +15% stamina regen.

Also, I'm not sure, but I think the vampire regens were in combat only as well. Even though they didn't specify it on the ability lists. I could be wrong about that, though.

CP5 · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

They made being a werewolf who actually uses the werewolf transformation more attractive, while making being a werewolf purely for the bonus to stamina regen a thing of the past.

As someone with many werewolf characters (primarily because of fond memories of the Companions questline in Skyrim) I fail to see the problem with that. They could have taken a different route to balance out the bonus to stamina regen, but most other methods would have generated more whines from the people who were just taking advantage of it. Giving them an always-on penalty of some sort to balance out the always-on stamina regen would be just as fair as making them slot the ultimate, but it would have resulted in at least as many complaints from the faux-fur non-transforming WW crowd, and it would have been worse for the WWs who actually want to use the transformation.

So, given that it was clearly unfair to give WWs a benefit over normal humans without any penalty to balance it out, who do you try to please? The players who just want a stat boost, or the players who actually want to play as a werewolf? The solution ZOS came up with may not be ideal, but it's clearly designed for the actual werewolf players rather than the faux ones.

You need to give up both ultimate slots to have the passive active at all times. Isn't that a bit excessive? Add the stamina regen passive as a buff to devour and make wolves have to transform+eat for it, but gimping your build by having the same ultimate on both bars is a bit much.

UrQuan · August 2015

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

cerrudo33 · August 2015

I'm already a soon to be ex werewolf sorc but every response in here either can not comprehend what they just read or prefer to troll and de rail topics...

The point (in my understanding) the OP was making is that werewolves had a bonus when not shifted but for their active skills they have to be in we form to use the skills and can not use ANY other abilities when shifted VS the vampires who have always active debuffs but the ability to mix and match class and vampire skill lines

The new style now being, no true passive bonus and werewolf ultimate (potentially) slotted on both bars (no class ults), still maintaining comparable negative resistances, and still no ability to mix class abilities while shifted aka a super nerf to ww'a in general.

The vampire by comparison saw buffs across a few of their active skills, still nix and match class abilities with vampire and almost 50% reduction in Fire dmg taken (trivializing they only real downside to vampire).

The point being when putting the 2 curse classes side by side, they have drastic differences in trade offs for power, and in my opinion, making ww virtually useless to take unless you only want to shift, and vampire a major all around buff when before you probably saw a 45-45-10 split between cursed and human. I would venture a guess that vamp will now be 60-70% human 20-30% and ww less than 10%...

So how are these changes fair? I can say the always on passive regen needed to get changed in one way shape or form but this was not it... Hell, to avoid the people like me that took ww because why not? Make it required to spend x amount of skills into ww to activate the passive so you make it have a cost unlinke the 0-2 skill point spenders for the passive regen...

Because this became much longer then I anticipated, tldr: bring opportunity costs, skill power, and passives in line with each other so that people choose to be one of three (ww, vamp, or human) with similar numbers, but hey that's just me

starkerealm · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

If you're in a war of attrition as a werewolf, something has gone very, very, wrong.

@starkerealm I'm not fully comprehending on what you're trying to say and you haven't answered my question. Heck, all my concerns on WW have been dismissed and overlooked by most people who replied here.

DrunkenGryffinInn wrote: »

If you don't play the WW then get rid of the WW and just add points in champion "mooncalf" to replace the 15% stamina regen. Simple, problem solved.

@DrunkenGryffinInn That is not the same. The stam regen provided can be as an extra on top of Mooncalf bonus.

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

Saying you want to be a WW without having to slot any of the abilities or actually be a WW is like saying you want the sword and shield passives and skills, but you don't want to actually have to use a sword and shield. This change should have happened a long time ago.

Thing is, WWs have to giveaway class Ultimates to gain one stam regen bonus while Vamps can simply slot in useable skills on-the-go. I have a hunch that you didn't read fully my post. If that is so, then please reread what I've listed down. It'll make things easier for you.

UrQuan · August 2015

CP5 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

They made being a werewolf who actually uses the werewolf transformation more attractive, while making being a werewolf purely for the bonus to stamina regen a thing of the past.

As someone with many werewolf characters (primarily because of fond memories of the Companions questline in Skyrim) I fail to see the problem with that. They could have taken a different route to balance out the bonus to stamina regen, but most other methods would have generated more whines from the people who were just taking advantage of it. Giving them an always-on penalty of some sort to balance out the always-on stamina regen would be just as fair as making them slot the ultimate, but it would have resulted in at least as many complaints from the faux-fur non-transforming WW crowd, and it would have been worse for the WWs who actually want to use the transformation.

So, given that it was clearly unfair to give WWs a benefit over normal humans without any penalty to balance it out, who do you try to please? The players who just want a stat boost, or the players who actually want to play as a werewolf? The solution ZOS came up with may not be ideal, but it's clearly designed for the actual werewolf players rather than the faux ones.

You need to give up both ultimate slots to have the passive active at all times. Isn't that a bit excessive? Add the stamina regen passive as a buff to devour and make wolves have to transform+eat for it, but gimping your build by having the same ultimate on both bars is a bit much.

Maybe it is a bit excessive, but for WWs who actually want to use WW form it's better than giving them an always-on debuff to offset the buff. Losing access to a buff part of the time (when you're on your skill bar that doesn't have the ultimate slotted) is better than always having a debuff regardless of what you do or don't have slotted. If WW abilities could be used without using an ultimate to transform first, then an always-on debuff would be fine. As long as an ultimate is required in order to use any WW abilities, though, an always-on debuff would penalize all of the players who actually want to play as werewolves, instead of just removing the stupidity of "everyone who isn't a vampire should always be a werewolf because there's a benefit and no downside".

Sneaky-Snurr · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

imredneckson wrote: »

-Has to lvl skills in WW form

That's not true. You can slot an entire skill bar full of your WW skills in human form if you want. You can't use them, but you can slot the skills on your bar so that you level them as you earn XP.

Honestly, that's how I got most of my werewolf morphs, and how I maxed out pounce the first time.

So what's the point here? That is such a waste of slot isn't it? Why wold you want to slot in an un-useable skill when you could've slotted something else useful in it? The very and sole purpose to what you did is to just level it am I right? I've tried putting that out to you but I hope you reread my post again. And please, we do hit like trucks but we die far too easily. That's the concern right there.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · August 2015

No real down side to being a a vamp Dummer bonus fire damage + Dragon Knights bonus fire damage (most DKs are Dummer) + fire staff higher base damage then other staffs and CP buff to elemental damage taking 5-9k Lava Whips and fire siege (that one you miss roll and death). Camouflaged Hunter (5k guaranteed from stealth and 15% to proc 7k more damage) + 9% damage buff to undead, fighters guild passive yea we have no real draw backs with all the fire out their.

WW have what THREE bow powers that do Poison damage and only if you go wolf and that never happens. Yes WW should have more then powers like a second bonus vet quest. To unlock five more powers a WW using Surprise Attack or crystal frags would be BS. I agree that WW are way other powers and had next to no sustain. Outside of full heavy that restores 50% more stamina then normal and can be buffed.

Saying Vampires have zero down side is a way to set people off even when they agree with you. Say buff WW cause they are underpowered not because Vamps stronger.

starkerealm · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

If you're in a war of attrition as a werewolf, something has gone very, very, wrong.

@starkerealm I'm not fully comprehending on what you're trying to say and you haven't answered my question. Heck, all my concerns on WW have been dismissed and overlooked by most people who replied here.

I think I missed the questions. A lot of your concerns got dismissed because they're not really applicable.

Werewolves excel at driving an enemy to the ground and ripping their guts out before they have a chance to react. They can hit for staggering amounts of damage, and soak off ludicrous amounts of abuse, for their spec.

So, if you're thinking wolves aren't actually viable in either PvP or PvE, you probably need to spend more time working with one and getting a better feel for it. Werewolves have a stupidly versatile skill set (when fully upgraded). They have a knockdown with no cast time, a fear effect that buffs, an AOE with attached DoT, a click heal (which runs off a different resource pool, meaning even if you've tapped out a wolf, they can still recover), and a gap closer. It's a really scary setup.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

DrunkenGryffinInn wrote: »

If you don't play the WW then get rid of the WW and just add points in champion "mooncalf" to replace the 15% stamina regen. Simple, problem solved.

@DrunkenGryffinInn That is not the same. The stam regen provided can be as an extra on top of Mooncalf bonus.

Realistically, getting +15% from mooncalf isn't worth it. You're talking about a serious investment to get that, and there are much better options in the Thief constellations.

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

Saying you want to be a WW without having to slot any of the abilities or actually be a WW is like saying you want the sword and shield passives and skills, but you don't want to actually have to use a sword and shield. This change should have happened a long time ago.

Thing is, WWs have to giveaway class Ultimates to gain one stam regen bonus while Vamps can simply slot in useable skills on-the-go. I have a hunch that you didn't read fully my post. If that is so, then please reread what I've listed down. It'll make things easier for you.

You make it sound like Devouring Swarm isn't one of the most hilariously overpowered ultimates in the game.

UrQuan · August 2015

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

Thing is, WWs have to giveaway class Ultimates to gain one stam regen bonus while Vamps can simply slot in useable skills on-the-go. I have a hunch that you didn't read fully my post. If that is so, then please reread what I've listed down. It'll make things easier for you.

No, you're looking at it wrong. They give up the use of a class ultimate to be able to transform into a werewolf. The stamina regen is just a little bonus for the folks who want to transform into a werewolf anyway. Your idea to have a debuff that's always on would penalize the werewolf players who actually care about using the transform.

CP5 · August 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

They made being a werewolf who actually uses the werewolf transformation more attractive, while making being a werewolf purely for the bonus to stamina regen a thing of the past.

As someone with many werewolf characters (primarily because of fond memories of the Companions questline in Skyrim) I fail to see the problem with that. They could have taken a different route to balance out the bonus to stamina regen, but most other methods would have generated more whines from the people who were just taking advantage of it. Giving them an always-on penalty of some sort to balance out the always-on stamina regen would be just as fair as making them slot the ultimate, but it would have resulted in at least as many complaints from the faux-fur non-transforming WW crowd, and it would have been worse for the WWs who actually want to use the transformation.

So, given that it was clearly unfair to give WWs a benefit over normal humans without any penalty to balance it out, who do you try to please? The players who just want a stat boost, or the players who actually want to play as a werewolf? The solution ZOS came up with may not be ideal, but it's clearly designed for the actual werewolf players rather than the faux ones.

You need to give up both ultimate slots to have the passive active at all times. Isn't that a bit excessive? Add the stamina regen passive as a buff to devour and make wolves have to transform+eat for it, but gimping your build by having the same ultimate on both bars is a bit much.

Maybe it is a bit excessive, but for WWs who actually want to use WW form it's better than giving them an always-on debuff to offset the buff. Losing access to a buff part of the time (when you're on your skill bar that doesn't have the ultimate slotted) is better than always having a debuff regardless of what you do or don't have slotted. If WW abilities could be used without using an ultimate to transform first, then an always-on debuff would be fine. As long as an ultimate is required in order to use any WW abilities, though, an always-on debuff would penalize all of the players who actually want to play as werewolves, instead of just removing the stupidity of "everyone who isn't a vampire should always be a werewolf because there's a benefit and no downside".

Hence why I always try to get out ideas that make the werewolf more part of your build (more overall use) as opposed to a short term dps buff.