What SHOULDN'T be included in ESO housing?

thunderwell · August 2015

I want to see some kind of storage in housing.
It could be tied to the bank as just a way to add extra bank space.

Stuff I don't want to see:
Everyone having a house per character, unless it was implemented like Wildstar (instanced plot of land vs instanced neighborhood).
Vendors, crafting stations, etc because less populated cities.
House, furniture, decorations, lawn things, etc, being mostly cash shop. A handful of exclusives I won't mind seeing, just not much more than that.
Pictures, statues, etc of nude people/characters, unless there was a toggle for a clothes on version.

mtwiggz · August 2015

What shouldn't be included? Not sure as I've never been a big fan of the idea to begin with. Although if I must have a home I want a hot tub for all my Brenton babes. Otherwise the whole idea is a bust.

Farorin · August 2015

Audigy wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

We're all pretty excited that housing is on the table for eventual release. There are MANY awesome things that homes in an MMO can have to enhance player experience and broaden gameplay. Many players have already voiced their thoughts on how homes could work in ESO (my thoughts: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145287/another-housing-suggestion-a-3-phase-release-plan/p1) There are also numerous threads about what homes SHOULD have, features we want... But what about those features we do NOT want?

There are features that, if added to player homes, would negatively impact the growth of the game or would discourage community interaction. Like, I personally don't think we should be able to use a Wayshrine to directly access our home. Home entrances should be actual places in Nirn that we must travel to.

I'll start this list off and add to it as we discuss...

The features we do NOT want to see in ESO player homes
(first player to seriously suggest item is credited, sorry @VoidBlue )

Guild Bank Access (Gidorick)

Personal Bank Access (Elloa)

Merchants(Elloa)

Crafting Stations(Elloa)

Undaunted Outposts(Elloa)

Farms(Elloa)

Writ Postings (Farorin)

Mob Spawns (WhiteCoatSyndrome)

Fences (Enodoc)

Guards (Enodoc)

Home selling (marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO)

Dye Stations (kevlarto_ESO)

So what are some features you do NOT want to see included in the player homes of the Elder Scrolls Online?

I am honestly shocked about that list. Did people not understand your question or are they completely out of their minds?

Pretty much everything that you listed there, especially banks, trade merchants, crafting stations, farms ... are what housing means for most of us old-school MMO players. Have people not played Ultima or DAOC?

I am not sure why you made that list or why some people seem to not understand what housing is, as honestly what else is our house supposed to do if not give us storage space, crafting tables, a garden to harvest or our own personal merchants? A house is not just a house somewhere without any purpose, a house is where we story our achievements in the game and where our chars will rest after a long day of adventuring.

They will be used to craft new gear, store our precious items, invite friends over to show them our trophies, harvest our garden and sell our products by NPC merchants.

So I would kindly ask you to please remove the "WE" as this list is anything but the will of "us", its more a misunderstanding or completely clueless folks that voted here

@Audigy If you had all those things in your house, why would you ever go back to town? Serious question.

I think its important to say that nobody automatically has all those things in his or her house. Housing is a process, something that takes many months to build.

A player might start with a small house, that only has a single room and maybe a box for items. Over time this house could be enhanced, new parcels be bought and after a lot of investment, that house might become what housing was in DAOC or Ultima.

Towns in MMOs are not there to be a crafting city or a bank city, towns are there to give players something to do. It can be quest content, it can be due a hideout of the thieves guilds where we sell our stolen goods, it could be to chat with townsfolk to find new hidden locations, world events happen there, people visit their guild merchant, do duels or RP ...

Fact is, an MMO is a living world and it should be a living world where on every corner of this world, something important can happen.

The mistake so many MMOs did since WOW is simple, they put everything at one location, usually the main city and left the whole rest of the gaming world empty. No player housing, no hide outs for thiefs, no crafting stations with unique recipes, no farms or trade hubs outside of the cities ... Look at WOW, the only reason people go into the towns are the AH´s and Banks - that's a pretty horrible state for an MMO.

If I look at the list by the OP then I see exactly the same mistake, people don't want to give housing a reason to even exist! We do not have any farms yet in the game, but still people don't want them in our house. Why? What would change to the towns if we had a farm?

What would change to the towns if we had a crafting table in our house? We do have crafting tables all around Tamriel, yet we are not allowed to have one in our own home?

What would change if we had storage space in our house? We can access the bank from several hubs throughout Tamriel, but once again in our house we shouldn't?
To me, all of this doesn't make any sense. People act as if towns would become deserted, just because our house would get a real function and offer what other locations that are not a town already offer. This however is silly and shows the lack of experience that I spoke of.

Towns right now at ESO are there to get the undaunted quest lines, sell stolen goods and pick up story related quests. This is what people do in towns and why they are in town. Nothing of that will be taken away by a house.

Other things however, that we can do all around Tamriel already like trading, crafting, digging up flowers or hunting animals are not related to towns. Or do you hunt food in a town, do you pick flowers in a town? I don't do that!

A house will depending on what players want with it, serve as another alternative to do things. Just because people can store items in a house, they might just as well store them in town. One thing doesn't cancel the other thing out. Same with the farm, you might be able to harvest Nirnhood, but you might not be able to harvest mountain flowers, as those only grow close to mountains and if your house is close to a river and not a mountain then it wont grow.
You might be able to grow pigs, but you still need to hunt down wolfs in the forest and so on.

In my opinion, an MMO that has a living world, will profit a lot from housing, as it will benefit the game and what we can do in it. SWG, DAOC and Ultima are considered the best MMO´s of all time still and they offered much more in their housing system than just a roof, doors, windows and walls.

Honestly, housing is not a replacement for a town it never was - its however another option to do things, but therefore it must actually serve a purpose and not be just a thing with a roof and 4 walls, as those houses we have hundreds in Tamriel already.
If people want a house without any purpose other than being a house, then be my guest there are several in each town already and we don't need to ask for housing anymore, as this costs development time and I would be really angry if we get housing in the way that @Gidorick wants it, as this type of housing would be a waste of time in my opinion.
Don't take this the wrong way please and sorry for the harsh words, but ya after all those months of requesting housing we finally get it and then such a thread comes up, its shocking as I said.

You bring up a good point/wall of text which I skimmed.

The main issue with adding too many of the things that towns and cities are used for into housing is that towns and cities will become dead zones if that is the case. Now if ZOS added more reasons to go back to those towns and cities that are not related to banks, merchants, etc. BEFORE they introduced player housing then I have no issue with player housing having those things, but as the game stands now, those things will just create a situation where in the long term, the game will feel dead and lifeless as nobody will be using the zones for any reason apart from the occasional new player, or grinder.

Thalmor-Nordmaster · August 2015

I want a flying house. one strapped to the back of a dragon. and no crown requirement. It should have everything in it.

Farorin · August 2015

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

I want a flying house. one strapped to the back of a dragon. and no crown requirement. It should have everything in it.

Why stop there? With that house, we should also be given all 3600 champion points upon acquiring it, and we should be able to fight from our Dragon-house in PVP using special dwemer weapons like dwemer sphere cannons (cannons that shoot dwemer spheres at people).

Thalmor-Nordmaster · August 2015

@Farorin Awesome Idea and Mudcrab catapults.oh oh oh and why only 3600 points 7200 so we are ready for the future.

OzJohnD · August 2015

I want a house that I never ever need to leave, ever ...

delushin · August 2015

Nothing like Warframe

No training grounds to practice tactics and dual each other
No crafting to chill with guildies and shoot the *** without old mate mix master 12 playing tunes
No banking because we all like the tunes mix master 12 plays while afk in the bank for 10 hours
No statues to display collected gear on because its better in the bank

Tholian1 · August 2015

I want all quests to come to my house. No more of that exploring stuff.

Gidorick · August 2015

Lol. I'm loving the sarcasm here guys. Chuckles abound!

Does Warframe really have housing?

P3ZZL3 · August 2015

@Gidorick So can anyone ask the question I asked earlier....

I'm still genuinely not sure what you actually use housing for if none of this stuff is in it?

MornaBaine · August 2015

I have heard nothing to indicate that they are SERIOUSLY working on player housing. Pretty much seems like the are still just bullshi**ing about it at the water cooler from time to time. I think they mention it now and again just to keep us hanging in there. That said, things I don't want to see:

Pretty much anything that will keep players from going to the city hubs. Access to your personal bank but no guild banks (like it already is in the Outlaw refuges) would be fine. Additional storage would also be highly desirable. I love to stash stuff "because I might need that later" and if I'm willing to pay for the special trunk that allows me to store it in my house I should be able to. While I love the idea of "farms" in theory I think anything that allows you to harvest mats from an additional source that you pay for will (rightly) cause complaints of "pay 2 win." Cooking fires SHOULD be in homes simply because it would be illogical NOT to have them there. But no, no other crafting stations should be in homes.

I'd like to see fluff items you can get for your home, like a bard (one that ONLY plays instrumentals please!), a servant who greets you as they bustle about cleaning (and can be dismissed when you don't want them around), various pets that would actually wander your house rather than just sticking to your side, and some fun things you can interact with like altars, books, a dining table you can actually sit and eat and drink at, etc.

Gidorick · August 2015

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

@Gidorick So can anyone ask the question I asked earlier....

I'm still genuinely not sure what you actually use housing for if none of this stuff is in it?

I personally think a FORM of crafting and farming should be in homes. My bad for making this thread before I posted concepts about that.

But mostly as a trophy room. A place to display the things you've earned. I would love to display ask the quest rewards I've gotten. A place to hoard items also... Where do I keep something that I just want to keep?

Think of personal backpacks as RAM, Banks as hard drives and housing storage archival tape.

That and a place to hang with friends is all some people want. I want more, but I want something that is DIFFERENT from what towns have.... I think it's vital that homes not replace towns.

MornaBaine · August 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

@Gidorick So can anyone ask the question I asked earlier....

I'm still genuinely not sure what you actually use housing for if none of this stuff is in it?

I personally think a FORM of crafting and farming should be in homes. My bad for making this thread before I posted concepts about that.

But mostly as a trophy room. A place to display the things you've earned. I would love to display ask the quest rewards I've gotten. A place to hoard items also... Where do I keep something that I just want to keep?

Think of personal backpacks as RAM, Banks as hard drives and housing storage archival tape.

That and a place to hang with friends is all some people want. I want more, but I want something that is DIFFERENT from what towns have.... I think it's vital that homes not replace towns.

Right there with you on that one Gid. Homes need to have fun stuff and even SOME useful stuff as long as it does not adversely affect the "population" of cities and towns.

MorHawk · August 2015

As long as it doesn't have weird Fable NPC sex, I'm good.

MornaBaine · August 2015

MorHawk wrote: »

As long as it doesn't have weird Fable NPC sex, I'm good.

Aw c'mon that was totally gonna be on my list of things housing SHOULD have!

BabeestorGor · August 2015

If housing cleared away the crowds of people hanging around banks and crafting stations in early zones I'd be all for it including access to banks and crafting. Ofc it will be either a goldsink (hopefully) or purchased for crowns so it probably won't have that effect.

P3ZZL3 · August 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

@Gidorick So can anyone ask the question I asked earlier....

I'm still genuinely not sure what you actually use housing for if none of this stuff is in it?

I personally think a FORM of crafting and farming should be in homes. My bad for making this thread before I posted concepts about that.

But mostly as a trophy room. A place to display the things you've earned. I would love to display ask the quest rewards I've gotten. A place to hoard items also... Where do I keep something that I just want to keep?

Think of personal backpacks as RAM, Banks as hard drives and housing storage archival tape.

That and a place to hang with friends is all some people want. I want more, but I want something that is DIFFERENT from what towns have.... I think it's vital that homes not replace towns.

Ok, so you want an elaborate Trophy room with a box for storage...basically....

Where is the viability or financial recovery for the developers then? I noticed most people have said it should not be in the crown store...so where would the developers make their money back. This would most definitely be a massive time sink and cost from their side.

Don;t read this the wrong way, I'm just trying to see where the viability is in all this

MornaBaine · August 2015

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

@Gidorick So can anyone ask the question I asked earlier....

I'm still genuinely not sure what you actually use housing for if none of this stuff is in it?

I personally think a FORM of crafting and farming should be in homes. My bad for making this thread before I posted concepts about that.

But mostly as a trophy room. A place to display the things you've earned. I would love to display ask the quest rewards I've gotten. A place to hoard items also... Where do I keep something that I just want to keep?

Think of personal backpacks as RAM, Banks as hard drives and housing storage archival tape.

That and a place to hang with friends is all some people want. I want more, but I want something that is DIFFERENT from what towns have.... I think it's vital that homes not replace towns.

Ok, so you want an elaborate Trophy room with a box for storage...basically....

Where is the viability or financial recovery for the developers then? I noticed most people have said it should not be in the crown store...so where would the developers make their money back. This would most definitely be a massive time sink and cost from their side.

Don;t read this the wrong way, I'm just trying to see where the viability is in all this

IF they ever really get around to this I fully expect to see it implemented as crown store content. They may possibly put a small cottage, mostly empty, into the game itself you can get with in game gold but they'll put all the really neat stuff in the crown store. And frankly I don't have a problem with that. I look at housing as a fluff item that will help support development of other playable content and I'm happy to support the game by buying it if ZOS actually does a decent job with it.

For me, the crucial thing will be that I be able to invite my entire guild into my "home" all at the same time. But honestly, even more than player housing, I want guild cities with "private" (instanced) quarters people can use.

Psychobunni · August 2015

If the coding prevented other players from forcing you into fighting stance, their speed buffs on you, skills inside the bank/crafting areas...plethora of other things "towns" might be worth keeping you attached to. Not in ESO however. I see no reason to force you to use town(s).

(yes, I hate people in real life too when shopping/running errands and sometimes fools suffer the rage for it, too bad they can't in game)

MorHawk · August 2015

One thing I would love to see, in addition to being able to display your trophies, is to display the stuff you stole. There's a whole raft of interesting stuff on that drop list that people have laundered and kept just because the descriptions are awesome-sauce.

Audigy · August 2015

MornaBaine wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

@Gidorick So can anyone ask the question I asked earlier....

I'm still genuinely not sure what you actually use housing for if none of this stuff is in it?

I personally think a FORM of crafting and farming should be in homes. My bad for making this thread before I posted concepts about that.

But mostly as a trophy room. A place to display the things you've earned. I would love to display ask the quest rewards I've gotten. A place to hoard items also... Where do I keep something that I just want to keep?

Think of personal backpacks as RAM, Banks as hard drives and housing storage archival tape.

That and a place to hang with friends is all some people want. I want more, but I want something that is DIFFERENT from what towns have.... I think it's vital that homes not replace towns.

Ok, so you want an elaborate Trophy room with a box for storage...basically....

Where is the viability or financial recovery for the developers then? I noticed most people have said it should not be in the crown store...so where would the developers make their money back. This would most definitely be a massive time sink and cost from their side.

Don;t read this the wrong way, I'm just trying to see where the viability is in all this

IF they ever really get around to this I fully expect to see it implemented as crown store content. They may possibly put a small cottage, mostly empty, into the game itself you can get with in game gold but they'll put all the really neat stuff in the crown store. And frankly I don't have a problem with that. I look at housing as a fluff item that will help support development of other playable content and I'm happy to support the game by buying it if ZOS actually does a decent job with it.

For me, the crucial thing will be that I be able to invite my entire guild into my "home" all at the same time. But honestly, even more than player housing, I want guild cities with "private" (instanced) quarters people can use.

I honestly doubt that housing will generate a lot of income, if it only serves as a placeholder for private meetings.

Every MMO that I played since the 90´s gave housing a real purpose and that's why it was so successful. SWG was fantastic, whole new cities were found, or Ultima where we could have vendors to sell our items, boxes, a mailbox ...
I also liked the feature in SWTOR or WOW to name a few newer MMOs. Housing just being a room or house somewhere to RP is not going to bring in money, sorry for those hardcore RP guys out there

Farorin wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

We're all pretty excited that housing is on the table for eventual release. There are MANY awesome things that homes in an MMO can have to enhance player experience and broaden gameplay. Many players have already voiced their thoughts on how homes could work in ESO (my thoughts: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/145287/another-housing-suggestion-a-3-phase-release-plan/p1) There are also numerous threads about what homes SHOULD have, features we want... But what about those features we do NOT want?

There are features that, if added to player homes, would negatively impact the growth of the game or would discourage community interaction. Like, I personally don't think we should be able to use a Wayshrine to directly access our home. Home entrances should be actual places in Nirn that we must travel to.

I'll start this list off and add to it as we discuss...

The features we do NOT want to see in ESO player homes
(first player to seriously suggest item is credited, sorry @VoidBlue )

Guild Bank Access (Gidorick)

Personal Bank Access (Elloa)

Merchants(Elloa)

Crafting Stations(Elloa)

Undaunted Outposts(Elloa)

Farms(Elloa)

Writ Postings (Farorin)

Mob Spawns (WhiteCoatSyndrome)

Fences (Enodoc)

Guards (Enodoc)

Home selling (marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO)

Dye Stations (kevlarto_ESO)

So what are some features you do NOT want to see included in the player homes of the Elder Scrolls Online?

I am honestly shocked about that list. Did people not understand your question or are they completely out of their minds?

Pretty much everything that you listed there, especially banks, trade merchants, crafting stations, farms ... are what housing means for most of us old-school MMO players. Have people not played Ultima or DAOC?

I am not sure why you made that list or why some people seem to not understand what housing is, as honestly what else is our house supposed to do if not give us storage space, crafting tables, a garden to harvest or our own personal merchants? A house is not just a house somewhere without any purpose, a house is where we story our achievements in the game and where our chars will rest after a long day of adventuring.

They will be used to craft new gear, store our precious items, invite friends over to show them our trophies, harvest our garden and sell our products by NPC merchants.

So I would kindly ask you to please remove the "WE" as this list is anything but the will of "us", its more a misunderstanding or completely clueless folks that voted here

@Audigy If you had all those things in your house, why would you ever go back to town? Serious question.

I think its important to say that nobody automatically has all those things in his or her house. Housing is a process, something that takes many months to build.

A player might start with a small house, that only has a single room and maybe a box for items. Over time this house could be enhanced, new parcels be bought and after a lot of investment, that house might become what housing was in DAOC or Ultima.

Towns in MMOs are not there to be a crafting city or a bank city, towns are there to give players something to do. It can be quest content, it can be due a hideout of the thieves guilds where we sell our stolen goods, it could be to chat with townsfolk to find new hidden locations, world events happen there, people visit their guild merchant, do duels or RP ...

Fact is, an MMO is a living world and it should be a living world where on every corner of this world, something important can happen.

The mistake so many MMOs did since WOW is simple, they put everything at one location, usually the main city and left the whole rest of the gaming world empty. No player housing, no hide outs for thiefs, no crafting stations with unique recipes, no farms or trade hubs outside of the cities ... Look at WOW, the only reason people go into the towns are the AH´s and Banks - that's a pretty horrible state for an MMO.

If I look at the list by the OP then I see exactly the same mistake, people don't want to give housing a reason to even exist! We do not have any farms yet in the game, but still people don't want them in our house. Why? What would change to the towns if we had a farm?

What would change to the towns if we had a crafting table in our house? We do have crafting tables all around Tamriel, yet we are not allowed to have one in our own home?

What would change if we had storage space in our house? We can access the bank from several hubs throughout Tamriel, but once again in our house we shouldn't?
To me, all of this doesn't make any sense. People act as if towns would become deserted, just because our house would get a real function and offer what other locations that are not a town already offer. This however is silly and shows the lack of experience that I spoke of.

Towns right now at ESO are there to get the undaunted quest lines, sell stolen goods and pick up story related quests. This is what people do in towns and why they are in town. Nothing of that will be taken away by a house.

Other things however, that we can do all around Tamriel already like trading, crafting, digging up flowers or hunting animals are not related to towns. Or do you hunt food in a town, do you pick flowers in a town? I don't do that!

A house will depending on what players want with it, serve as another alternative to do things. Just because people can store items in a house, they might just as well store them in town. One thing doesn't cancel the other thing out. Same with the farm, you might be able to harvest Nirnhood, but you might not be able to harvest mountain flowers, as those only grow close to mountains and if your house is close to a river and not a mountain then it wont grow.
You might be able to grow pigs, but you still need to hunt down wolfs in the forest and so on.

In my opinion, an MMO that has a living world, will profit a lot from housing, as it will benefit the game and what we can do in it. SWG, DAOC and Ultima are considered the best MMO´s of all time still and they offered much more in their housing system than just a roof, doors, windows and walls.

Honestly, housing is not a replacement for a town it never was - its however another option to do things, but therefore it must actually serve a purpose and not be just a thing with a roof and 4 walls, as those houses we have hundreds in Tamriel already.
If people want a house without any purpose other than being a house, then be my guest there are several in each town already and we don't need to ask for housing anymore, as this costs development time and I would be really angry if we get housing in the way that @Gidorick wants it, as this type of housing would be a waste of time in my opinion.
Don't take this the wrong way please and sorry for the harsh words, but ya after all those months of requesting housing we finally get it and then such a thread comes up, its shocking as I said.

You bring up a good point/wall of text which I skimmed.

The main issue with adding too many of the things that towns and cities are used for into housing is that towns and cities will become dead zones if that is the case. Now if ZOS added more reasons to go back to those towns and cities that are not related to banks, merchants, etc. BEFORE they introduced player housing then I have no issue with player housing having those things, but as the game stands now, those things will just create a situation where in the long term, the game will feel dead and lifeless as nobody will be using the zones for any reason apart from the occasional new player, or grinder.

As said before, I am not sure where that fear of "empty cities" comes from, as I have not encountered this yet in any MMO that had housing.

Its a bit like when I would say, because of raids the world is empty - which actually might be more true than the argument the "no housing" guys offer

Besides that, an honest question.

Should people play the game or spent their precious time in towns? Because, the way you guys argue about "towns" it seems to be the most important social part of the game, which i disagree with. I find meeting players while I quest much more fun, than those who jump up and down in front of my crafting table or who block the bank lady.

Dylanator30 · August 2015

DC universes style of "bases" would work perfect. Many housing areas to buy, but others can walk into same home but custom inside. Then Makes house appliance customization items to drop in dungeons and such!!

Osteos · August 2015

I can see the cook fire, alchemy station and enchanting station being useful in a house, but why do you need a clothing, blacksmithing or woodworking station? My guess is for refining material that you've collected, because unless your character is really low level you're most likely going to be using crafted sets or dropped sets. So what if houses had a stump outside that you could refine wood, an anvil or smelter for refining ore and a hide rack for clothing?

I'm not opposed to a small gardens either. I'm mean if you want to spend your day gardening online and selling potions then more power to you!

I could careless if we get houses. It would be nice to have a place to put trophies but I don't foresee myself spending substantial time there.

I guess my question back is Why do you need access to absolutely everything from your house?

Sharmony · August 2015

I do not want to see player housing become the equivalent of WoW Garrisons where everyone has there own little personal space and does not interact in any way with the rest of the world, because hey, if you're given most things in your house, why would you leave?

Cuyler · August 2015

IMHO the "don't add this because it will make cities dead" is a rubbish argument. There will always be quests that take players to cities. As long as writs, the bank and stables remain, there will be activity. As long as the gold sink for buying a house and crafting stations upgrades are substantial the plebs will remain active in cities.

What I envision is that only a few will be able to afford housing/crafting stations due to some steep gold/level requirements leaving a majority to remain active in the cities. I want functionality in a housing system , not an RP instance.

Osteos · August 2015

So again I understand wanting houses to be functional but why does functional mean I must have access to absolutely everything!

Gidorick · August 2015

Well is pretty obvious that there are pretty adamant views on both sides of the crafting station in player home issue. I was thinking similarly to @paleobonesb14_ESO to where maybe we can only refine materials or research materials.

Those who don't want crafting stations would see this as a compromise, those who want stations would see it as a needless restriction.

Pheefs · August 2015

its sounding like choices choices choices & customization...

for every feature someone wants included, someone else doesn't.
I'm hoping its a big huge YES all around & like @Cuyler said, make it have gold/level requirements!

If they want to spend the gold or crowns to install every upgrade, every crafting station, and the basement vault under the kitchen sink, why not let them?

what it SHOULDN'T include is chairs we can't sit on!

Gidorick · August 2015

Pheefs wrote: »

what it SHOULDN'T include is chairs we can't sit on!

10000% agree!