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Can cost reduction vs regeneration be settled please?
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Yakidafi✭✭✭✭✭
✭From running dry you should try resource management.
No problem, happy to help.Moons and sands shall be your guide and path.
PC EU/NA2 -
Yakidafi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGediy3P2Iw
Should give some hints on how to play.
depends on your build ifreduction or regen is betterEdited by Yakidafi on August 16, 2015 11:20AMMoons and sands shall be your guide and path.
PC EU/NA0 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lets see.. Just throwing up some math. (I am sure some other pencil sharpener will correct me where I am wrong.)
Base
Magicka pool of 1000
Magica regen of 20 per tick
Spell costs 100
Nothing:
Magicka Pool 1000
Cast Spell -100 Magica Pool 900
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 920
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 940
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 960
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 980
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Plus to Magica Regen 10%
Magicka Regen increases to 22 per tick
Cast Spell -100 Magica Pool 900
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 922
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 944
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 966
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 988
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Magica Reduction 10%
Cast Spell -90 Magica Pool 910
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 930
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 950
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 970
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 990
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Not much difference for one spell. But, lets look at casting that spell 9 times.
Nothing:
Magicka Pool 1000
Cast Spell -100x9 Magica Pool 100
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 120
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 140
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 160
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 180
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 200
.......
Tick 44 Magicka Pool 980
Tick 45 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Plus to Magica Regen 10%
Magicka Regen increases to 22 per tick
Cast Spell -100x9 Magica Pool 100
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 122
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 144
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 166
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 188
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 210
....
Tick 40 Magicka Pool 980
Tick 41 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Magica Reduction 10%
Cast Spell -90x9 Magica Pool 1000-810=190
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 210
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 230
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 250
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 270
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 290
Tick 6 Magicka Pool 310
....
Tick 40 Magicka Pool 990
Tick 41 Magicka Pool 1000 full
So, again about the same. But, notice. The Magicka reduction leaves the pool with enough magicka to cast that spell 2 more times. The guy with regen can only cast it once more. HOWEVER the flip side is, once their pools are down to ten, the guy with magicka regen will be able to cast the spell again sooner at four ticks instead of five for the spell reduction guy.
As long as they dont do something silly, like make you not regen magicka while blocking, it all depends on your playstyle.Power level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.2 -
Darlgon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stack both; problem solved.
Hmmm..I should have run that
Lets run that.
Base
Magicka pool of 1000
Magica regen of 20 per tick
Spell costs 100
Plus to Magica Regen 10%
Magicka Regen increases to 22 per tick
Magica Reduction 10%
Cast Spell -90 Magica Pool 910
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 932
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 954
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 976
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 998
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 1000 full
About the same again.
HOWEVER..
Plus to Magica Regen 10%
Magicka Regen increases to 22 per tick
Magica Reduction 10%
Cast Spell -90*9 Magica Pool 1000-810=190
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 212
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 234
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 256
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 278
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 300
Tick 6 Magicka Pool 322
....
Tick 35 Magicka Pool 960
Tick 36 Magicka Pool 982
Tick 37 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Needless to say, both is better. One more run, this time with both at half.
Plus to Magica Regen 5%
Magicka Regen increases to 21 per tick
Magica Reduction 5%
Cast Spell -95*9 Magica Pool 1000-855=145
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 166
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 187
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 208
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 229
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 250
Tick 6 Magicka Pool 271
....
Tick 40 Magicka Pool 985
Tick 41 Magicka Pool 1000 full
By splitting, we end up with about the same as with pure regen or pure reduction, except we get only one spell cast at low, and a slightly faster opportunity to cast it again if you go down to 50 magicka with that cast.Edited by Darlgon on August 16, 2015 4:24PMPower level to CP160 in a week:
Where is the end game? You just played it.
Why don't I have 300+ skill points? Because you skipped content along the way.
Where is new content? Sigh.1 -
Dekkameron✭✭✭✭✭yer i always mix both, sometimes if the race isnt particulary suited to the role i stack more regen though for some reason
- Veteran Combat Librarian -0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭I think that if you stack heavily in one, you can possibly neglect the other… But it's probably a big math equation before you can figure out what cut off point you have to exceed to see benefit.
For example, if you stack stamina regen instead of reduced cost, that benefits dodge rolling and blocking potentially; but how high does your stam regen have to be before it's worth it? A nightblade (before update 7) can get to around 3k stam regen without dedicating every cp/item towards it. Is that better than/how much better is it than 1.5k regen and X reduced stamina cost?
Magicka doesn't get the same benefit to huge regen as its only used for casting as opposed to skills+blocking+dodge rolling with stamina. So I would guess that, along with 99.9999% of every "which x is better for y?" Question, the answer is "it depends. On a lot. "
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think that if you stack heavily in one, you can possibly neglect the other… But it's probably a big math equation before you can figure out what cut off point you have to exceed to see benefit.
For example, if you stack stamina regen instead of reduced cost, that benefits dodge rolling and blocking potentially; but how high does your stam regen have to be before it's worth it? A nightblade (before update 7) can get to around 3k stam regen without dedicating every cp/item towards it. Is that better than/how much better is it than 1.5k regen and X reduced stamina cost?
Magicka doesn't get the same benefit to huge regen as its only used for casting as opposed to skills+blocking+dodge rolling with stamina. So I would guess that, along with 99.9999% of every "which x is better for y?" Question, the answer is "it depends. On a lot. "
well the cp system kind of implies that both is best anyway, you get diminishing benefit of putting more points into one.
E.g. 50 (all) in stamina regen, adding another adds 0.2%
Were as if you put that 1 into reduction it'll give you 1% reduction.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »I think that if you stack heavily in one, you can possibly neglect the other… But it's probably a big math equation before you can figure out what cut off point you have to exceed to see benefit.
For example, if you stack stamina regen instead of reduced cost, that benefits dodge rolling and blocking potentially; but how high does your stam regen have to be before it's worth it? A nightblade (before update 7) can get to around 3k stam regen without dedicating every cp/item towards it. Is that better than/how much better is it than 1.5k regen and X reduced stamina cost?
Magicka doesn't get the same benefit to huge regen as its only used for casting as opposed to skills+blocking+dodge rolling with stamina. So I would guess that, along with 99.9999% of every "which x is better for y?" Question, the answer is "it depends. On a lot. "
well the cp system kind of implies that both is best anyway, you get diminishing benefit of putting more points into one.
E.g. 50 (all) in stamina regen, adding another adds 0.2%
Were as if you put that 1 into reduction it'll give you 1% reduction.
For sure, as far as cp goes. I was thinking more along the lines of set bonuses and jewel enchants.
After something like 20 CP points the diminishing returns start, so you can kind of assume spreading your CP around reduced costs and regens will put them all into diminishing return territory. That's where stacking regen set bonuses etc may free up CP for completely different champ bonuses.
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barbarian340✭✭✭so i guess a better question would be, if i wanna be a magicka dps nightblade (no elemental damage), which would be the better race between high elf and breton? because the only difference is high elves have more regen, and bretons have 3% reduced spell cost...so is the 12% regen better than the 3% cost reduction?0
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Ipsius✭✭✭✭Depends
What gear set do you want to use? Do you want to PVP? If you want to pvp, do you want to do gank-style small scale pvp or siege/defense? Do you plan on using drink or food buffs?
All of these things matter if you're trying to "optimize". Many magicka-based people use crafted Seducer set for the 5 piece -8% cost bonus. But the 2, 3, and 4 piece bonuses do not add spell damage (besides a bit from increased max mp). Many magicka dps use 4 or 5 pieces of Martial Knowledge for the spell damage, but it offers no regen. Sure, you can wear 4 piece Martial and 5 piece Seducer at the same time if you want, but that's all your armor and sword/shield or dual wield. That's why your gear choice matters. Then again, you can always swap out gear for different roles.
If you want to gank pvp, max mp/spell power is ideal, so you can kill targets before they can mount a defense. If you want to do larger scale pvp and sieges, you may run out of mp quickly and be useless for long periods if you don't have good regen.
Neither of these points clearly define Breton or High elf being better; you can stack regen with High Elf, stack Reduced Cost with Breton, or balance the racials out with equipment and food/drink by stacking regen with Breton or reduced cost with High Elf.
I personally like Bretons because of their passive mdef (which will actually matter next update with the fixes to nirnhoned and piercing effects), and you specifically said you don't plan on doing elemental damage, so the final high elf passive won't benefit you as much.Edited by Ipsius on August 16, 2015 7:30PM0 -
barbarian340✭✭✭Depends What gear set do you want to use? Do you want to PVP? If you want to pvp, do you want to do gank-style small scale pvp or siege/defense? Do you plan on using drink or food buffs?
All of these things matter if you're trying to "optimize". Many magicka-based people use crafted Seducer set for the 5 piece -8% cost bonus. But the 2, 3, and 4 piece bonuses do not add spell damage (besides a bit from increased max mp). Many magicka dps use 4 or 5 pieces of Martial Knowledge for the spell damage, but it offers no regen. Sure, you can wear 4 piece Martial and 5 piece Seducer at the same time if you want, but that's all your armor and sword/shield or dual wield. That's why your gear choice matters. Then again, you can always swap out gear for different roles.
If you want to gank pvp, max mp/spell power is ideal, so you can kill targets before they can mount a defense. If you want to do larger scale pvp and sieges, you may run out of mp quickly and be useless for long periods if you don't have good regen.
Neither of these points clearly define Breton or High elf being better; you can stack regen with High Elf, stack Reduced Cost with Breton, or balance the racials out with equipment and food/drink by stacking regen with Breton or reduced cost with High Elf.
I personally like Bretons because of their passive mdef (which will actually matter next update with the fixes to nirnhoned and piercing effects), and you specifically said you don't plan on doing elemental damage, so the final high elf passive won't benefit you as much.
yea...i was more focusing on pve, sorry0 -
Ipsius✭✭✭✭PVE, reduced cost will get you more mileage. Most enemies will die quickly, and the biggest baddest bosses still won't take TOO long. If you end up running out of mp, you can always do some heavy attacks with a resto/destro staff to regain it, then cast more spells with the returned mp because of reduced cost. Always a good idea to slip regen in where you can though.0
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danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lets see.. Just throwing up some math. (I am sure some other pencil sharpener will correct me where I am wrong.)
Base
Magicka pool of 1000
Magica regen of 20 per tick
Spell costs 100
Nothing:
Magicka Pool 1000
Cast Spell -100 Magica Pool 900
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 920
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 940
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 960
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 980
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Plus to Magica Regen 10%
Magicka Regen increases to 22 per tick
Cast Spell -100 Magica Pool 900
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 922
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 944
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 966
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 988
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Magica Reduction 10%
Cast Spell -90 Magica Pool 910
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 930
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 950
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 970
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 990
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Not much difference for one spell. But, lets look at casting that spell 9 times.
Nothing:
Magicka Pool 1000
Cast Spell -100x9 Magica Pool 100
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 120
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 140
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 160
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 180
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 200
.......
Tick 44 Magicka Pool 980
Tick 45 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Plus to Magica Regen 10%
Magicka Regen increases to 22 per tick
Cast Spell -100x9 Magica Pool 100
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 122
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 144
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 166
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 188
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 210
....
Tick 40 Magicka Pool 980
Tick 41 Magicka Pool 1000 full
Magica Reduction 10%
Cast Spell -90x9 Magica Pool 1000-810=190
Tick 1 Magicka Pool 210
Tick 2 Magicka Pool 230
Tick 3 Magicka Pool 250
Tick 4 Magicka Pool 270
Tick 5 Magicka Pool 290
Tick 6 Magicka Pool 310
....
Tick 40 Magicka Pool 990
Tick 41 Magicka Pool 1000 full
So, again about the same. But, notice. The Magicka reduction leaves the pool with enough magicka to cast that spell 2 more times. The guy with regen can only cast it once more. HOWEVER the flip side is, once their pools are down to ten, the guy with magicka regen will be able to cast the spell again sooner at four ticks instead of five for the spell reduction guy.
As long as they dont do something silly, like make you not regen magicka while blocking, it all depends on your playstyle.
One thing you missed, is every skill has a 1s GCD. So while you are casting you are still gaining back magicka every 2 seconds. It's not much at 10% increased regeneration (you would start at ~110 compared to 100 for reduction in your example), but it's there.
I think the general rule of thumb is short fight cost reduction is better, long fight regeneration is better. Also, reduction has diminishing returns, whereas regeneration does not. So you see better results with reduction immediately, regeneration takes longer to notice results.
Cost of the spell also matters, with bigger cost spells working better with cost reduction, but low cost spells working better with regeneration.
Like has been said, it depends on your build/skills. Maybe someone one day will make a calculator where you can plug in your build and it can make a recommendation.0 -
Morbash✭✭✭✭Cost of the spell also matters, with bigger cost spells working better with cost reduction, but low cost spells working better with regeneration.
This and Darlgon's comparison only apply when we're dealing with percents. If it's a comparison between jewelry enchants, cost reduction wins every time.
I don't know about you guys, but 200 cost reduction sounds far better than 64 regen. And considering regen ticks are every two seconds, cost reduction is that much more appealing.Edited by Morbash on August 17, 2015 3:15AM"War doesn't build character; it reveals it."0 -
Anorak✭✭✭Honestly lowering cost is better in my mind because every single thing you cast is effected vs every 2 seconds you get a bit more resource. Also you always need to consider that your resources are split in half as you get a tick every 2 seconds. This means in the new patch with regen of ring enchants being around 200 you are still only getting 100 more stam that you can spend every second which isnt any better from having 200 stam saved every time you cast an ability per second.0
