Double Mundus Bug - A must have now?

Kupoking · August 2015

Well if some streamer wouldve not publicly demonstrated that he was using it and tried to explain himself by saying he "had" to in order to be "competitive" because members of a certain duel guild are all running it, it may have not be so socially accepted to use this exploit.

Just look at those guys who stream or put videos on youtube who masks their long term buffs on ftc or srrendar just for fun. Then wonder : if those guys had an opportinuty to cheat in this game (ap trade, 3rd party program, botting), would you think they would have the ethics to not do it?

Alcast · August 2015

BEZDNA wrote: »

Double mundoes stones?

Hahah, that's for noobs! Here you are - found a guy with 5 of them!

And he probably told you: "I dont know how i got them"

BEZDNA · August 2015

Winnamine wrote: »

BEZDNA wrote: »

Double mundoes stones?

Hahah, that's for noobs! Here you are - found a guy with 5 of them!

What addon is that?

ggFrames

Jules · August 2015

Winnamine wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

1) It's definitely possible
2) Everyones definitely doing it
3) Morals aside, it's pretty much a must have in terms of staying competitive
4) ZOS should handle bugs like this (&nirn) more seriously and more hastily

No one needs this bug to stay competitive. I kill the scrubs who use it on a daily, and I'm not using one damn exploit. I'm sorry, but I have to deeply disagree with you on this one and point out that that is really just a dumb thing to say. I know plenty of players who AREN'T using it, and are still some of the best players you can come across. Don't generalize everyone, please. Good players will always come out on top. Who needs exploits when you have git gud? As @Nifty2g would say.

It was enough to say you deeply disagree without also adding that it's a dumb thing to say. Your post makes me feel like you might want to have a productive conversation aside from that statement. So going forward, lets attempt to not insult one another with petty jabs.

I see and agree with your point to an extent. However, I think that for arguments sake, you need to separate opinion from fact.

- Using multiple mundus stones is a crappy thing to do. Opinion. This can be argued on either side.
- Using multiple mundus stones gives you better stats. Fact. This cannot be argued with any sound logic.

If a large number of players (a mix of good and bad) are using this bug, your character is at a statistical disadvantage to not do it. That is a fact. If you compare two identical characters with only this difference, the character that does not use this bug is weaker. Sure, plenty of other aspects come into the making of a good player, aside from stats. But that is besides the point.

I stand by the statement that it is pretty much a must have in terms of staying competitive. That does not mean I use it myself, or that I believe it is right to use it. This is where I separate opinions and morality from fact. In terms of staying competitive/comparable/ect, this bug is becoming widely mainstream. If it continues to go unchecked, much like nirn armor, it will saturate the community and become the meta.

A good friend of mine made excellent points recently. He said that though many of us prefer to play a clean, non-exploited game, the game does not reward you for playing honorably. And when exploits such as this go unchecked and unfixed for months on end, it only reinforces an "ends justify the means" thought process.

It was wrong to generalize and say "everyone" is definitely doing it. And I have already corrected myself if you read up. When I said "everyone's definitely doing it" I meant it hyperbolically so apologies for the misconception. I realize not everyone is, and I am included in that percentage.

I respect that you choose to play without this bug, and agree that it is not strong enough to be the end-all, be-all in fights. Im sure you are right in saying plenty who do not use it are very good players. However it is not "dumb" to make an observation that remaining competitive is hinged upon remaining in the relative neighborhood stat wise as other players. There's a reason why gear is so crucial. There's a reason why CP is so crucial. All of these elements add up to a statistically sound build. Your mundus stone(s) is just one more piece of this mathematical comparison.

Truth be told we, shouldn't even have to debate this, because in the time it took for me to type this out, it should've already been fixed.

I don't think nirn and the double mundus exploit are directly comparable. I would argue that nirn, like sharpened, and like many skills, has an unintentionally strong effect when used exactly as intended. Since these skills and traits remain in the game, most of the community has just accepted that that's how they work, that's just what nirn does, and it does it for everyone.
The double mundus exploit is a cheat plain and simple. It is not a broken mechanic, it is a mechanic that you break yourself, on purpose, to gain an advantage that others don't have access to. A lot of people here are trying to normalize it by saying everyone's doing it so you have to or whatever, but it's cheating, and not everyone is doing it.

They weren't compared in terms of being the same level of exploit. One is clearly more intentional and cheap than the other. They were compared in terms of being long-term, well known, and widely used. Just because you don't know many people who run this doesn't mean they aren't out there. Point being, if it's not fixed, this number will only grow.

Ezareth · August 2015

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/206355/hotfix-8-11-15-vampire-werewolf

Looks like Werepires are being fixed. That is another exploit I heard about people using but never bothered researching.

This past week has seen more exploits fixed or soon to be fixed than any other week in the history of ESO.

Fruitdog · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/206355/hotfix-8-11-15-vampire-werewolf

Looks like Werepires are being fixed. That is another exploit I heard about people using but never bothered researching.

This past week has seen more exploits fixed or soon to be fixed than any other week in the history of ESO.

it's too bad major updates like the upcoming one usually bring a whole host of new exploits

rich.magab14a_ESO · August 2015

I actually have this bug on one of my toons from when i was experimenting with the twice born set when it came out. Not sure what happened but all i know is when i removed the set the mundus effects stayed and for some reason it cant be removed. I tried to get rid of it by going to another mundus stone and applying it but it still wouldn't reset. the bug has existed since the set came out. When i reported the bug i just got the typical confirmation that the report has been recieved. This bug seems to be similar to the warrior stone bug from almost 10 months ago(where you couldnt get rid of it). I never confirmed if both buffs were actually working though, but it does show on the character sheet. That toon is relegated to crafting now

Xael wrote: »

Prabooo wrote: »

so, if you wear Twice Born... you get 3 stones?

The idea is you somehow manage to remove Twice Born and keep the double mundus without needing the set. I have yet to see any proof outside of bugged unit frames. So far I have seen several visual bugs with all the popular Unit Frame addons - FTC / Srrendar / LUIe/ etc. What I have not seen are videos showing the multiple mundus application without wearing Twice Born via the character sheet.

It is always "I know someone" or "I heard..." or "someone said they..." etc. I know that you can't remove armor during combat and you can't remove it when you are dead, so I don't see how the alleged way of doing it works. I can try again in Cyrodiil tonight but I think it's bs and predicated on misplaced trust in "he said, she said."

I am being objective about it and until I see some actual proof, I will remain skeptical. Yes Rich addressed the issue without actually admitting what the issue is, that doesn't confirm or deny it's existence, rather it could be a unit frame display issue or an actual exploit. Afterall, I have screenshots of people who are vamp when they are not, multiple vamp stages at the same time, vamp and ww at the same time, etc.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

Jules wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

1) It's definitely possible
2) Everyones definitely doing it
3) Morals aside, it's pretty much a must have in terms of staying competitive
4) ZOS should handle bugs like this (&nirn) more seriously and more hastily

No one needs this bug to stay competitive. I kill the scrubs who use it on a daily, and I'm not using one damn exploit. I'm sorry, but I have to deeply disagree with you on this one and point out that that is really just a dumb thing to say. I know plenty of players who AREN'T using it, and are still some of the best players you can come across. Don't generalize everyone, please. Good players will always come out on top. Who needs exploits when you have git gud? As @Nifty2g would say.

It was enough to say you deeply disagree without also adding that it's a dumb thing to say. Your post makes me feel like you might want to have a productive conversation aside from that statement. So going forward, lets attempt to not insult one another with petty jabs.

I see and agree with your point to an extent. However, I think that for arguments sake, you need to separate opinion from fact.

- Using multiple mundus stones is a crappy thing to do. Opinion. This can be argued on either side.
- Using multiple mundus stones gives you better stats. Fact. This cannot be argued with any sound logic.

If a large number of players (a mix of good and bad) are using this bug, your character is at a statistical disadvantage to not do it. That is a fact. If you compare two identical characters with only this difference, the character that does not use this bug is weaker. Sure, plenty of other aspects come into the making of a good player, aside from stats. But that is besides the point.

I stand by the statement that it is pretty much a must have in terms of staying competitive. That does not mean I use it myself, or that I believe it is right to use it. This is where I separate opinions and morality from fact. In terms of staying competitive/comparable/ect, this bug is becoming widely mainstream. If it continues to go unchecked, much like nirn armor, it will saturate the community and become the meta.

A good friend of mine made excellent points recently. He said that though many of us prefer to play a clean, non-exploited game, the game does not reward you for playing honorably. And when exploits such as this go unchecked and unfixed for months on end, it only reinforces an "ends justify the means" thought process.

It was wrong to generalize and say "everyone" is definitely doing it. And I have already corrected myself if you read up. When I said "everyone's definitely doing it" I meant it hyperbolically so apologies for the misconception. I realize not everyone is, and I am included in that percentage.

I respect that you choose to play without this bug, and agree that it is not strong enough to be the end-all, be-all in fights. Im sure you are right in saying plenty who do not use it are very good players. However it is not "dumb" to make an observation that remaining competitive is hinged upon remaining in the relative neighborhood stat wise as other players. There's a reason why gear is so crucial. There's a reason why CP is so crucial. All of these elements add up to a statistically sound build. Your mundus stone(s) is just one more piece of this mathematical comparison.

Truth be told we, shouldn't even have to debate this, because in the time it took for me to type this out, it should've already been fixed.

First, I'm sorry if you were offended by me saying it was a dumb thing to say. It's not calling you dumb, it's just the statement is still, in my opinion, senseless. To say that to stay competitive one must exploit just boggles my mind. You say that mathematically a character with two mundus stones is stronger than one with only one; yes, this is true. But does that mean a player needs to exploit to stay competitive? No, it does not.

This bug isn't going unchecked any longer, this bug is getting fixed, they've stated it numerous times now (though they're late as usual to fixing crap). So anyone who is actively using it now to be "competitive" is going to be at a severe disadvantage when it's fixed and they have to learn to play again without their mathematical advantage over a player who had not been exploiting the entire time. So, in reality, I think that this bug is moreso hurting players who wish to be competitive because they'll have a lot more to worry about once its fixed, and the good players who never needed it will continue to be good players. Mathematics may have a large thing to do with builds, damage, etc. etc, we all know this, but you cannot expect it to have the final say in anything competitive when you take into account that the individual playing this seemingly flawless mathematically built character is, in fact, flawed. It really does come down to skill, not an extra bonus to stats.

Your observations do have a point, however, in that using the double mundus exploit has allowed players who never stood a chance against dominant ones to have a possible chance of beating those better players. So if that's what people mean by being competitive, I suppose it gives people with less skill a false image of a bit more skill? I don't know.

But you're right, debating this is ridiculous as it's going to be fixed soon, and SHOULD have been fixed the moment it was brought to ZoS' attention. But we all know how they handle bugs

Gilliamtherogue · August 2015

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

First, I'm sorry if you were offended by me saying it was a dumb thing to say. It's not calling you dumb, it's just the statement is still, in my opinion, senseless. To say that to stay competitive one must exploit just boggles my mind. You say that mathematically a character with two mundus stones is stronger than one with only one; yes, this is true. But does that mean a player needs to exploit to stay competitive? No, it does not.

This bug isn't going unchecked any longer, this bug is getting fixed, they've stated it numerous times now (though they're late as usual to fixing crap). So anyone who is actively using it now to be "competitive" is going to be at a severe disadvantage when it's fixed and they have to learn to play again without their mathematical advantage over a player who had not been exploiting the entire time. So, in reality, I think that this bug is moreso hurting players who wish to be competitive because they'll have a lot more to worry about once its fixed, and the good players who never needed it will continue to be good players. Mathematics may have a large thing to do with builds, damage, etc. etc, we all know this, but you cannot expect it to have the final say in anything competitive when you take into account that the individual playing this seemingly flawless mathematically built character is, in fact, flawed. It really does come down to skill, not an extra bonus to stats.

Your observations do have a point, however, in that using the double mundus exploit has allowed players who never stood a chance against dominant ones to have a possible chance of beating those better players. So if that's what people mean by being competitive, I suppose it gives people with less skill a false image of a bit more skill? I don't know.

But you're right, debating this is ridiculous as it's going to be fixed soon, and SHOULD have been fixed the moment it was brought to ZoS' attention. But we all know how they handle bugs

I think you two are arguing two different stances. Double Mundus is not needed to stay competitive in PvP. Does it help a lot? Of course it does, but PvP is a much larger system that has many variables that go into it to dictate whether a player will be deemed "good" or not. PvE is a much more controlled system where stats are much more important than in PvP since there really isn't any breathing room. You know what an NPC is going to do if you've fought them enough, you know their attacks are scripted, there is little element of surprise compared to PvP. Arbitrary stats HEAVILY influence competitive play in PvE, where a player with 5% more DPS will always beat another player who doesn't have it, assuming skill levels are the same. CP and double mundus heavily alter who and who cannot fall in the top tier PvE groups, while PvP has much more breathing room.
Double Mundus is unfortunately a must to keep up with someone else who has it, there is no doubt about it. That's the state of many trials and DSA atm, where if you're up against a group who has this exploit and is at a similar level of play, you're going to lose if you don't have it too.

Waylander · August 2015

When studying fraud one statistic that stood out to me was:

10% of people will look for ways to commit a fraud
80% of people might commit a fraud if the opportunity is there and they think they can get away with it
10% of people will never commit fraud, regardless of opportunity

What we should try to do is protect the 80% of people who might by reducing the opportunity and/or making the consequences too high to take the risk.

Zos should act faster to reduce the opportunity or if resources don't allow that, increase the consequences.

If you are part of the 80%, don't give in to temptation. Your integrity as a player is worth more than a 5% stat increase.

Kobaal · August 2015

Waylander wrote: »

When studying fraud one statistic that stood out to me was:

10% of people will look for ways to commit a fraud
80% of people might commit a fraud if the opportunity is there and they think they can get away with it
10% of people will never commit fraud, regardless of opportunity

What we should try to do is protect the 80% of people who might by reducing the opportunity and/or making the consequences too high to take the risk.

Zos should act faster to reduce the opportunity or if resources don't allow that, increase the consequences.

If you are part of the 80%, don't give in to temptation. Your integrity as a player is worth more than a 5% stat increase.

I read somewhere that 80% of all statistics are made up.

DisgracefulMind · August 2015

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

First, I'm sorry if you were offended by me saying it was a dumb thing to say. It's not calling you dumb, it's just the statement is still, in my opinion, senseless. To say that to stay competitive one must exploit just boggles my mind. You say that mathematically a character with two mundus stones is stronger than one with only one; yes, this is true. But does that mean a player needs to exploit to stay competitive? No, it does not.

This bug isn't going unchecked any longer, this bug is getting fixed, they've stated it numerous times now (though they're late as usual to fixing crap). So anyone who is actively using it now to be "competitive" is going to be at a severe disadvantage when it's fixed and they have to learn to play again without their mathematical advantage over a player who had not been exploiting the entire time. So, in reality, I think that this bug is moreso hurting players who wish to be competitive because they'll have a lot more to worry about once its fixed, and the good players who never needed it will continue to be good players. Mathematics may have a large thing to do with builds, damage, etc. etc, we all know this, but you cannot expect it to have the final say in anything competitive when you take into account that the individual playing this seemingly flawless mathematically built character is, in fact, flawed. It really does come down to skill, not an extra bonus to stats.

Your observations do have a point, however, in that using the double mundus exploit has allowed players who never stood a chance against dominant ones to have a possible chance of beating those better players. So if that's what people mean by being competitive, I suppose it gives people with less skill a false image of a bit more skill? I don't know.

But you're right, debating this is ridiculous as it's going to be fixed soon, and SHOULD have been fixed the moment it was brought to ZoS' attention. But we all know how they handle bugs

I think you two are arguing two different stances. Double Mundus is not needed to stay competitive in PvP. Does it help a lot? Of course it does, but PvP is a much larger system that has many variables that go into it to dictate whether a player will be deemed "good" or not. PvE is a much more controlled system where stats are much more important than in PvP since there really isn't any breathing room. You know what an NPC is going to do if you've fought them enough, you know their attacks are scripted, there is little element of surprise compared to PvP. Arbitrary stats HEAVILY influence competitive play in PvE, where a player with 5% more DPS will always beat another player who doesn't have it, assuming skill levels are the same. CP and double mundus heavily alter who and who cannot fall in the top tier PvE groups, while PvP has much more breathing room.
Double Mundus is unfortunately a must to keep up with someone else who has it, there is no doubt about it. That's the state of many trials and DSA atm, where if you're up against a group who has this exploit and is at a similar level of play, you're going to lose if you don't have it too.

Correct, in the stance of PvE, I see this argument entirely.

I'm discussing the stance of it in PvP, however.

Saturn · August 2015

Grampa_Smurf wrote: »

I here a lot saying Equip Twice born star, go get 2 mundus bug ....should just remove the set bla bla. I have never used the set and have 4 just from levelling. Don't know how just know I have 4 on my bar.

There are some players that have not done anything and getting the bug and now have the exploiter tag.

I heard there was a bug where swapping mundus stones often before hitting veteran levels could do it. Were you the kind of player that picked up a mundus stone every time you found a new one?

WRX · August 2015

I am just glad people are finely realizing how often people are exploiting this stuff and, yes I agree, essentially cheating.

The funny part is the people who say "How dare they!", and then run it along with 10-12+ other guildies including GM's and officers.

WAITWUT

Takllin · August 2015

yodased wrote: »

The thing is though, this is cheating.

Call it whatever you want to justify the use, but it is what it is.

Whoever uses these bugs:

1. Camo Hunter
2. Overload bar
3. 2 Mundus
4. Going Through Keep Doors
5. Intentional Lag Switching

Plus about 5 more that I haven't seen brought up on the forums so I'm not about to, you are cheaters.

Saying that "zenimax doesn't fix it" is hilarious to me because it's actually accepting the fact that this is cheating, but because other people do it and it hasn't been removed it's ok.

I guess all you guys are Tom Brady fans, with your underinflated footballs and multiple championships.

Meh, whatever. I don't use them and won't use them. I feel sorry for the "ultra competitive" who must cheat to win at a video game.

I agree with everything you've said here, It's laughable when people try to justify exploiting. Just accept that you are doing it because you want to gain an unfair advantage over others.

Except about Tom Brady. Just stop while you think your ahead on that one.

Jules · August 2015

yodased wrote: »

I guess all you guys are Tom Brady fans with your multiple championships.

Edited to reduce salt. Really just concerned about your health bro.

FMonk · August 2015

The number of people doing this and not even trying to hide it is disgusting. I really hope the new PTS patch actually fixed it.

yodased · August 2015

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

QuebraRegra · August 2015

If ya can't beat em, join em?

Seriously, has this been patched for the consoles yet?

thanks,

Jules · August 2015

yodased wrote: »

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

YES OFC. Check the sig bro. We are both in hot beautiful love with him.

JDar · August 2015

yodased wrote: »

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

He's a cheater and so is the team he plays for. They were caught cheating. It's that simple.

yodased · August 2015

DisGunBGoodYall

Ezareth · August 2015

Jules wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

YES OFC. Check the sig bro. We are both in hot beautiful love with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT9pygVQwgk

Jules · August 2015

JDar wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

He's a cheater and so is the team he plays for. They were caught cheating. It's that simple.

Fite me IRL

Jules · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

YES OFC. Check the sig bro. We are both in hot beautiful love with him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT9pygVQwgk

Lol best thing ever.

k2blader · August 2015

Supernovas wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

1) It's definitely possible
2) Everyones definitely doing it
3) Morals aside, it's pretty much a must have in terms of staying competitive
4) ZOS should handle bugs like this (&nirn) more seriously and more hastily

Not everyone is doing it , but everything else is completely true.

Even though I obviously strongly dislike the CP system (:-P), I would rather know whether or not opponents are using exploits and/or macros than how many CPs they have. As it is I basically try to stay out of reach of known abusers as they already get enough free AP.

k2blader · August 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Supernovas wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

1) It's definitely possible
2) Everyones definitely doing it
3) Morals aside, it's pretty much a must have in terms of staying competitive
4) ZOS should handle bugs like this (&nirn) more seriously and more hastily

Not everyone is doing it , but everything else is completely true.

Right you are, sry to generalize. many**

Yeah I don't run it and none of the people I group with run it. I've never even considered it, nor is it a requirement to stay competitive.

The way I look at it is if I'm tearing it up when I'm not using it against people who are, how screwed are they when this finally is fixed? It's just shameful that people feel the need to purposefully exploit this to gain an advantage.

Honestly? The people who benefit most from fixes are the "non-leets" just trying to play the game to have some good ol' fashioned fun and PvP competition without having to deal with cheaters.

GRxKnight · August 2015

JDar wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

He's a cheater and so is the team he plays for. They were caught cheating. It's that simple.

I cannot wait for the judge to exonerate Tom for this. The league has nothing more than a "we think he was generally aware of the situation". All of the slugs in the world will become extinct from the salt coming out of Patriots haters.

Ya hate us 'cause ya ain't us!

Kobaal · August 2015

Ezareth · August 2015

GRxKnight wrote: »

JDar wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

@jules @Takllin You guys pats fans much?

LoL I was wondering if that small comment would rustle some jimmies. I kid Tom Brady, I'm sure he is an amazing person.

He's a cheater and so is the team he plays for. They were caught cheating. It's that simple.

I cannot wait for the judge to exonerate Tom for this. The league has nothing more than a "we think he was generally aware of the situation". All of the slugs in the world will become extinct from the salt coming out of Patriots haters.

Ya hate us 'cause ya ain't us!

Actually it's kind of funny because there are probably more Patriots "fans" than not these days. Can't understand why that could be...( =