Hi OP, Zeni has stated they're planning to add non-CP campaigns and would announce an ETA. It's great news, IMO. But probably a longish wait. Total guess but I would be surprised if they roll that out before the year's end.

And just so you know I think we're on the same page. Some people will try to claim "CPs don't matter" but that's not true. They will then say, "Catch up then, lazy person." So assuming one is willing to waste life grinding a game, how do you "catch up" to someone who grinds several more hours per day than you?

The thing is, it only matters in small scale fights for the most part, and Cyrodiil is primarily a group effort. I think its excelent incentive for players who really love the game to play and get an edge over their opponents. There is after all a cap.

Granted, a non CP campaign might be a good option.

Ezareth wrote: »

I've died to people with less CP than me and have killed people with hundreds more than me and I know people with CPs in the top .1% who have got neutered by people with 1/4 their CP.

CP gives you an advantage but you're still able to compete just fine without them. Soon it will be far easier to get the first few hundred and every hundred after that becomes increasingly less and less useful.

Devaluing the early CPs is ZoSs stated preference for allows players an option to "Catchup" and not fall complexly out of the picture.

This isn't nearly as big of an issue as people make of it.

You are right that not every situation will be drastic difference, but this will depend on where the point have been spent and what kind of build you are up against.

For example let's say 2 magicka NB's square off (which with IC incoming seems a likely scenario) but one has 300 points which are invested in Thaumaturge and Hardy(?) and the other guy has 0 CP. That is +25% more damage and -25% damage taken for the 300 CP guy all things being equal (since there will be almost exclusively magic damage being used in this fight). There are also another 100 points to go elsewhere, just for good measure.

The skill required to overcome this kind of disadvantage would have to be phenomenal. Generally speaking that 0 CP guy is as good as dead.

That's the kind of un-fun, un-fair scenario that should be addressed and I am glad to see ZoS looking to put forward some kind of device to keep the playing field closer to even.

It's a pretty significant deal, I wouldn't downplay it.

It's not only CP disparity, but the disparity between playstyles. A pure PvPer like myself who doesn't touch PvE unless he has to is at a severe disadvantage, even with equal time put in. CP is another example of PvPers getting the shaft, and another example of ZOS forcing players to play their, IMHO, boring PVE.

PvP in this game is good, when it works (that's a whole different discussion), but you're basically being forced to

A ) Spend money on crown scrolls (another shameful move by ZOS)
B ) Fish for Roe, because we all know we bought this game to fish.
C ) Grind without scrolls, which pulls pure PVPers away from the only part of the game they enjoy, and those players will still be playing catchup to people with xp bonuses.
D ) Accept the flawed game design and just ignore it, to your own disadvantage.
E ) Quit.

And not to mention a certain exploit EP players had where they were able to get tons of CP without even being at their computer.

I don't like the imbalances from the CS, but I am happy at least being on the lower end until there is a no cp campaign (or until I quit).

Ezareth wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I've died to people with less CP than me and have killed people with hundreds more than me and I know people with CPs in the top .1% who have got neutered by people with 1/4 their CP.

CP gives you an advantage but you're still able to compete just fine without them. Soon it will be far easier to get the first few hundred and every hundred after that becomes increasingly less and less useful.

Devaluing the early CPs is ZoSs stated preference for allows players an option to "Catchup" and not fall complexly out of the picture.

This isn't nearly as big of an issue as people make of it.

You are right that not every situation will be drastic difference, but this will depend on where the point have been spent and what kind of build you are up against.

For example let's say 2 magicka NB's square off (which with IC incoming seems a likely scenario) but one has 300 points which are invested in Thaumaturge and Hardy(?) and the other guy has 0 CP. That is +25% more damage and -25% damage taken for the 300 CP guy all things being equal (since there will be almost exclusively magic damage being used in this fight). There are also another 100 points to go elsewhere, just for good measure.

The skill required to overcome this kind of disadvantage would have to be phenomenal. Generally speaking that 0 CP guy is as good as dead.

That's the kind of un-fun, un-fair scenario that should be addressed and I am glad to see ZoS looking to put forward some kind of device to keep the playing field closer to even.

Yeah but 300 CPs versus 0 CPs is the worst possible comparison.(And impossible since you're going to get 50-80 CPs just grinding from Vet1 to Vet14)

Comparing a 300CP vet versus a 600CP vet is a completely different scenario and that fight is going to be anyone's game. If they make the first 300-400CPs much easier to get then this really is going to be a non-issue.

Beyond 300 CPs your damage increasing abilities become much more limited and beyond 600 CPs basically nil.

Of course CP don't give you godmode but still its a big difference.

If your opponent is about as skilled as you playing the same build/class with a lot more CP it is very unlikely that you will win. The closer the skilllevel of both players is the higher the impact of CP. But the most enjoyable fights are against players that are about as skilled as you. Or you might lose against a player that is worse than you but has spend more time in CWC grinding.

Whatever way you put it, its just a bad game design.

Ezareth wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I've died to people with less CP than me and have killed people with hundreds more than me and I know people with CPs in the top .1% who have got neutered by people with 1/4 their CP.

CP gives you an advantage but you're still able to compete just fine without them. Soon it will be far easier to get the first few hundred and every hundred after that becomes increasingly less and less useful.

Devaluing the early CPs is ZoSs stated preference for allows players an option to "Catchup" and not fall complexly out of the picture.

This isn't nearly as big of an issue as people make of it.

You are right that not every situation will be drastic difference, but this will depend on where the point have been spent and what kind of build you are up against.

For example let's say 2 magicka NB's square off (which with IC incoming seems a likely scenario) but one has 300 points which are invested in Thaumaturge and Hardy(?) and the other guy has 0 CP. That is +25% more damage and -25% damage taken for the 300 CP guy all things being equal (since there will be almost exclusively magic damage being used in this fight). There are also another 100 points to go elsewhere, just for good measure.

The skill required to overcome this kind of disadvantage would have to be phenomenal. Generally speaking that 0 CP guy is as good as dead.

That's the kind of un-fun, un-fair scenario that should be addressed and I am glad to see ZoS looking to put forward some kind of device to keep the playing field closer to even.

Yeah but 300 CPs versus 0 CPs is the worst possible comparison.(And impossible since you're going to get 50-80 CPs just grinding from Vet1 to Vet14)

Comparing a 300CP vet versus a 600CP vet is a completely different scenario and that fight is going to be anyone's game. If they make the first 300-400CPs much easier to get then this really is going to be a non-issue.

Beyond 300 CPs your damage increasing abilities become much more limited and beyond 600 CPs basically nil.

I largely agree based on the last line. The biggest issue I see with cp is not the passives them selves, but the small resource boost you get with each one. Short term this is not a large boost, but over the course of the whole 3.6k cp it will add up.

I Looked at my resource pool stats with and without cp. I currently have 475. I looked at these numbers for a little while, but I could not find a obvious pattern as to how much they add. ( Curious if anyone knows the percentage each point adds or how they interact with things like racial passives, Battle Spirit Health Buff, and undaunted passives.)

No CP
Health: 23,424
Magicka: 8,117
Stamina: 29,074

With 475 Cp
Health: 25,512
Magic: 9,529
Stamina: 33,231

Differences
Health: 2,088
Magicka: 1,412
Stamina: 4,157

I will use the stamina as an example as it is the most extreme. If memory serves the 2 piece on my gold vr 14 sunder flame adds 933 stamina. 4,157/933 = apx 4.45

So in this particular example aside from the passives in the trees I am receiving about 4 and a half stamina set bonuses from my CP.

if you play the game 2 months and get to vr14 (realistic for nongrinder and casual) you can have like 50 champion points overall and enough resources to have crafted gold gear. You play 2 months so you expect to be atleast sometimes competitive at pvp, but you have ZERO chance, almost zero chance to have 1vs1 with someone with your power. The same after 3 months with 100 champion points. Noone can stay here with only zerging for more than 2 months, its not bearable

manny254 wrote: »

I largely agree based on the last line. The biggest issue I see with cp is not the passives them selves, but the small resource boost you get with each one. Short term this is not a large boost, but over the course of the whole 3.6k cp it will add up.

I Looked at my resource pool stats with and without cp. I currently have 475. I looked at these numbers for a little while, but I could not find a obvious pattern as to how much they add. ( Curious if anyone knows the percentage each point adds or how they interact with things like racial passives, Battle Spirit Health Buff, and undaunted passives.)

No CP
Health: 23,424
Magicka: 8,117
Stamina: 29,074

With 475 Cp
Health: 25,512
Magic: 9,529
Stamina: 33,231

Differences
Health: 2,088
Magicka: 1,412
Stamina: 4,157

I will use the stamina as an example as it is the most extreme. If memory serves the 2 piece on my gold vr 14 sunder flame adds 933 stamina. 4,157/933 = apx 4.45

So in this particular example aside from the passives in the trees I am receiving about 4 and a half stamina set bonuses from my CP.

pls explain how to increase primary stats with CP?

Jules wrote: »

We all know that CP is a crucial piece in the development of a build. If you want to be strong at this time, you must have decent CP. We're talking 300+ or gtfo realistically. And that's conservative. As time continues, the disparity between those with 300 and those with 1k+ grows tremendously. And the gap between current players and new/returning players is even more disgusting.

I just honestly wanted to get the general consensus on how people feel about this. Personally, I applaud/am jealous of those who have high cp. But I'm just not interested in grinding 5hrs a day to join those ranks.

My main concern is just balance; both between the current population and the potential population. Can we honestly expect anyone to start playing or returning to ESO knowing that they are this far behind? Is there a feasible way to balance these CP in Cyro without discouraging the progression of those with higher CP? I think a hard cap is somewhat harsh. A cap on how many CP are applicable in Cyro is also harsh, but the most equalizing. I've heard talks of quarterly caps or scaling them (ie: 1-100 takes less xp than 300-400) which I think is probably the most fair way to do it.

Not sure what the exact right answer is here though. Interested in hearing people's thoughts.

I think it is bad for the whole game, not just Cyrodiil. They should scrap the whole thing. It is a weird kind of carrot/stick retention thing that rewards addictive play and discourages new players from sticking around at the same time. It's almost like ZoS is struggling to hold on to what small usership they have at any cost, even if it means they can never hold a new customer again.

manny254 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I've died to people with less CP than me and have killed people with hundreds more than me and I know people with CPs in the top .1% who have got neutered by people with 1/4 their CP.

CP gives you an advantage but you're still able to compete just fine without them. Soon it will be far easier to get the first few hundred and every hundred after that becomes increasingly less and less useful.

Devaluing the early CPs is ZoSs stated preference for allows players an option to "Catchup" and not fall complexly out of the picture.

This isn't nearly as big of an issue as people make of it.

You are right that not every situation will be drastic difference, but this will depend on where the point have been spent and what kind of build you are up against.

For example let's say 2 magicka NB's square off (which with IC incoming seems a likely scenario) but one has 300 points which are invested in Thaumaturge and Hardy(?) and the other guy has 0 CP. That is +25% more damage and -25% damage taken for the 300 CP guy all things being equal (since there will be almost exclusively magic damage being used in this fight). There are also another 100 points to go elsewhere, just for good measure.

The skill required to overcome this kind of disadvantage would have to be phenomenal. Generally speaking that 0 CP guy is as good as dead.

That's the kind of un-fun, un-fair scenario that should be addressed and I am glad to see ZoS looking to put forward some kind of device to keep the playing field closer to even.

Yeah but 300 CPs versus 0 CPs is the worst possible comparison.(And impossible since you're going to get 50-80 CPs just grinding from Vet1 to Vet14)

Comparing a 300CP vet versus a 600CP vet is a completely different scenario and that fight is going to be anyone's game. If they make the first 300-400CPs much easier to get then this really is going to be a non-issue.

Beyond 300 CPs your damage increasing abilities become much more limited and beyond 600 CPs basically nil.

I largely agree based on the last line. The biggest issue I see with cp is not the passives them selves, but the small resource boost you get with each one. Short term this is not a large boost, but over the course of the whole 3.6k cp it will add up.

I Looked at my resource pool stats with and without cp. I currently have 475. I looked at these numbers for a little while, but I could not find a obvious pattern as to how much they add. ( Curious if anyone knows the percentage each point adds or how they interact with things like racial passives, Battle Spirit Health Buff, and undaunted passives.)

No CP
Health: 23,424
Magicka: 8,117
Stamina: 29,074

With 475 Cp
Health: 25,512
Magic: 9,529
Stamina: 33,231

Differences
Health: 2,088
Magicka: 1,412
Stamina: 4,157

I will use the stamina as an example as it is the most extreme. If memory serves the 2 piece on my gold vr 14 sunder flame adds 933 stamina. 4,157/933 = apx 4.45

So in this particular example aside from the passives in the trees I am receiving about 4 and a half stamina set bonuses from my CP.

I'm really glad you were able to articulate this mathematically. Because I think this is one of the most concerning issues with the CP disparity; the resource pool gains. I'm not sure exactly why it happens but I think the gains you make from the passives alone are completely sufficient. To include these resource pool gains on top of it is just absolutely ridiculous.

I mean, of course @Ezareth is right and your damage causing passives arent just stacking exponentially. Once mighty/thaumaturge/ele expert are maxed (still stupid there's 2 for magicka, 1 for stam btw) your damage is essentially "capped". However, with the resource pool gains, it's obviously not really capped. It's going to continue to grow in small increments as you approach 3600.

The other issue with CP disparity is that even though you may not get actual damage from them once your 3 passives are maxed, we all know that damage is not the only name of the game in cyro. Sustain baby. Sustain. These 25% reductions, 25% regen to Magicka and stamina, 25% block cost reduction, 25% cc break/dodge roll reduction, these things add up. Chances are a new player walking on to the field with 75 CP is not only dwarfed in experience, he will now also be dwarfed in damage and sustain. Chances are, that guys not sticking around to get rekt every day. That's my concern.

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

It's a pretty significant deal, I wouldn't downplay it.

It's not only CP disparity, but the disparity between playstyles. A pure PvPer like myself who doesn't touch PvE unless he has to is at a severe disadvantage, even with equal time put in. CP is another example of PvPers getting the shaft, and another example of ZOS forcing players to play their, IMHO, boring PVE.

PvP in this game is good, when it works (that's a whole different discussion), but you're basically being forced to

A ) Spend money on crown scrolls (another shameful move by ZOS)
B ) Fish for Roe, because we all know we bought this game to fish.
C ) Grind without scrolls, which pulls pure PVPers away from the only part of the game they enjoy, and those players will still be playing catchup to people with xp bonuses.
D ) Accept the flawed game design and just ignore it, to your own disadvantage.
E ) Quit.

And not to mention a certain exploit EP players had where they were able to get tons of CP without even being at their computer.

Psyjic Ambrosia can be bought for as low as 3350 each (I bought 30 on an auction house in singles at that price) buying crown store scrolls is just stupid. When I solo/duo grind I average 15-20K gold an hour after repairs, easily enough to afford the cost of ambosia. Fishing for Roe is something only people who enjoy....fishing....should do.

If you're a PvPer you'll easily get your champion point a day from PvP just from kills and kill quests. It has been 160 days since the release of 1.6.5 which means if you had a VR14 you should have at least 230 champion points which is maybe 100 CPs behind players who do a good bit of grinding yet dont go crazy over it.

Yes as time goes on that 100 gap will become 200 in another 6 months, yet the benefit provided by those champion points will stay relatively the same. (The 380 champion point mark I feel represents the pinnacle of efficiency with everything beyond that diminishing far more rapidly.

Jules wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I've died to people with less CP than me and have killed people with hundreds more than me and I know people with CPs in the top .1% who have got neutered by people with 1/4 their CP.

CP gives you an advantage but you're still able to compete just fine without them. Soon it will be far easier to get the first few hundred and every hundred after that becomes increasingly less and less useful.

Devaluing the early CPs is ZoSs stated preference for allows players an option to "Catchup" and not fall complexly out of the picture.

This isn't nearly as big of an issue as people make of it.

You are right that not every situation will be drastic difference, but this will depend on where the point have been spent and what kind of build you are up against.

For example let's say 2 magicka NB's square off (which with IC incoming seems a likely scenario) but one has 300 points which are invested in Thaumaturge and Hardy(?) and the other guy has 0 CP. That is +25% more damage and -25% damage taken for the 300 CP guy all things being equal (since there will be almost exclusively magic damage being used in this fight). There are also another 100 points to go elsewhere, just for good measure.

The skill required to overcome this kind of disadvantage would have to be phenomenal. Generally speaking that 0 CP guy is as good as dead.

That's the kind of un-fun, un-fair scenario that should be addressed and I am glad to see ZoS looking to put forward some kind of device to keep the playing field closer to even.

Yeah but 300 CPs versus 0 CPs is the worst possible comparison.(And impossible since you're going to get 50-80 CPs just grinding from Vet1 to Vet14)

Comparing a 300CP vet versus a 600CP vet is a completely different scenario and that fight is going to be anyone's game. If they make the first 300-400CPs much easier to get then this really is going to be a non-issue.

Beyond 300 CPs your damage increasing abilities become much more limited and beyond 600 CPs basically nil.

I largely agree based on the last line. The biggest issue I see with cp is not the passives them selves, but the small resource boost you get with each one. Short term this is not a large boost, but over the course of the whole 3.6k cp it will add up.

I Looked at my resource pool stats with and without cp. I currently have 475. I looked at these numbers for a little while, but I could not find a obvious pattern as to how much they add. ( Curious if anyone knows the percentage each point adds or how they interact with things like racial passives, Battle Spirit Health Buff, and undaunted passives.)

No CP
Health: 23,424
Magicka: 8,117
Stamina: 29,074

With 475 Cp
Health: 25,512
Magic: 9,529
Stamina: 33,231

Differences
Health: 2,088
Magicka: 1,412
Stamina: 4,157

I will use the stamina as an example as it is the most extreme. If memory serves the 2 piece on my gold vr 14 sunder flame adds 933 stamina. 4,157/933 = apx 4.45

So in this particular example aside from the passives in the trees I am receiving about 4 and a half stamina set bonuses from my CP.

I'm really glad you were able to articulate this mathematically. Because I think this is one of the most concerning issues with the CP disparity; the resource pool gains. I'm not sure exactly why it happens but I think the gains you make from the passives alone are completely sufficient. To include these resource pool gains on top of it is just absolutely ridiculous.

I mean, of course @Ezareth is right and your damage causing passives arent just stacking exponentially. Once mighty/thaumaturge/ele expert are maxed (still stupid there's 2 for magicka, 1 for stam btw) your damage is essentially "capped". However, with the resource pool gains, it's obviously not really capped. It's going to continue to grow in small increments as you approach 3600.

The other issue with CP disparity is that even though you may not get actual damage from them once your 3 passives are maxed, we all know that damage is not the only name of the game in cyro. Sustain baby. Sustain. These 25% reductions, 25% regen to Magicka and stamina, 25% block cost reduction, 25% cc break/dodge roll reduction, these things add up. Chances are a new player walking on to the field with 75 CP is not only dwarfed in experience, he will now also be dwarfed in damage and sustain. Chances are, that guys not sticking around to get rekt every day. That's my concern.

You can use this to calculate the base stat gain.

http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/

I think there is some kind of CP scaling logic with stat points needs adjusted. I'm only getting 2200 from 100 points myself but I'm only using drink and my "base" Stamina is only 18000. I think it is stupid if CP stat benefits are multiplicative with food buffs and armor enchants. It should only scale off of base stats.

And yes as far as sustain goes I think there are gains to be made beyond 300 CP but regen in your primary stat is going to be king with the rest being relative "fluff". Is 25% more magicka regen going to make a huge difference to stamina nightblade? At some point resources become infinite anyways so I don't think this is as big of a deal.

Still if you can maintain 50% of the CPs of the person you're fighting then you'll still get ~2/3rds the stats they get from their CPs.

A very smart friend of mind has a really interesting take on CP Imbalance. He told me that yes at times fighting someone and encountering someone with alot of CP can be annoying but he doesnt mind it much becuase fighting these people is all chance and in the grand scheme of things anyone who pvps seriously is at avarage in their own regard.

sadowink, do you not think people who have been playing the game for a while now should have an advantage over new players? lets be honest anyone thinking they are just going to pick up a game an dominate is not really a smart person, thats not just this game either in all games be it mmo/fps/ whatever you wanna pick.

This mindset of everything has to be fair and equal no matter what is killing games in general. Keep it out of my pvp please. These people grind/craft/level so that they have an advantage over people who don't. If there is no advantage to obtain why even play an mmo at all? Like everything in life Time Spent = Success.