Opinion on 1.7 after the 3 core changes (Block, Dodge, Blink)

k2blader · July 2015

Raizin wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Best advice: Wait for Live, since that's the only place where you can make a real judgement about 'the death of X or Y'.

Other than that, articulate post!

Thanks.

I agree, we'll certainly have to wait for live before we can make strong proclamations like that, but there's no denying their intentions.

They don't seem to really like people getting away or tanking for too long. All their changes are in that direction. And this is what perplexes me because in an open pvp game when you are outnumbered, doing hit & runs or kiting is all you got left really.

I haven't been on the PTS yet to check it out, but how is this working in IC? Does zerging win in there too?

Ofc.

'K. Just curious if Zeni made any considerations for solo or small group players. >_<

Raizin · July 2015

k2blader wrote: »

Raizin wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Best advice: Wait for Live, since that's the only place where you can make a real judgement about 'the death of X or Y'.

Other than that, articulate post!

Thanks.

I agree, we'll certainly have to wait for live before we can make strong proclamations like that, but there's no denying their intentions.

They don't seem to really like people getting away or tanking for too long. All their changes are in that direction. And this is what perplexes me because in an open pvp game when you are outnumbered, doing hit & runs or kiting is all you got left really.

I haven't been on the PTS yet to check it out, but how is this working in IC? Does zerging win in there too?

Ofc.

'K. Just curious if Zeni made any considerations for solo or small group players. >_<

they claim they did/do

.

SC0TY999 · August 2015

I say they bite the bullet roll back to 1.5 and start making small changes / adjustments in incremental patches, rather than clutching straws with the huge nerfs and buffs etc... which caused this whole mess!

Oh well one can only dream :P

Dyride · August 2015

The healing nerf is hitting stamina builds harder than magicka builds when you account for stamina's other defensive abilities being nerfed to oblivion.

I do wonder how things will change once ZOS correctly starts scaling Healing Ward to only +150% at low health rather than +250% currently on PTS.

I think they should have included a 20% reduction in all regeneration (Health, Magicka, and Stamina) and increased skill costs by 20% while in Cyrodiil maybe with having stamina regen halved while blocking @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno.

I think the Roll Dodge fatigue should be reduced to only +25% but have the cooldown increased to 8 secs. Sometimes you really need to roll twice quickly in succession to evade a large AOE or being focused by 2+ people but this would still prevent endless dodging due to the slightly longer cooldown.

This would have forced more people to make choices before just spamming skills and also forced more resource management styled play to provide outcomes to battles.

ToRelax · August 2015

infracanisub17_ESO wrote: »

The healing nerf is hitting stamina builds harder than magicka builds when you account for stamina's other defensive abilities being nerfed to oblivion.

I do wonder how things will change once ZOS correctly starts scaling Healing Ward to only +150% at low health rather than +250% currently on PTS.

I think they should have included a 20% reduction in all regeneration (Health, Magicka, and Stamina) and increased skill costs by 20% while in Cyrodiil maybe with having stamina regen halved while blocking @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno.

I think the Roll Dodge fatigue should be reduced to only +25% but have the cooldown increased to 8 secs. Sometimes you really need to roll twice quickly in succession to evade a large AOE or being focused by 2+ people but this would still prevent endless dodging due to the slightly longer cooldown.

This would have forced more people to make choices before just spamming skills and also forced more resource management styled play to provide outcomes to battles.

Why only PvP? In PvE I wowuld like having more use for a sustain focused build, too.
But we also have to remember where all those resources come from.
Just increasing skill costs and decreasing regen rates will make the gap between low vets and seasoned v14s/v16s even bigger.

Juraigr · August 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I'm going to try to articulate my thoughts on the 1.7 balance changes as best as I can. It might prove a challenge and a bit of a long post, so please bear with me.

In versions 1-1.5 we had a system of soft-caps. You couldn't dodge or blink or block or cloak forever. Likewise you couldn't attack forever. You had to balance the use of resources between offence and defense as you saw fit. But very importantly defensive and offensive strategy would cost similar amount of resources, so it was a valid strategy to play defensive trying to drive someone out of resources if you thought your sustain was superior.

With 1.6 (2.0) and the removal of soft caps, resource management in general went out the window. I think we can all agree that was not ideal. Something needed to be done.

In response, in 1.7 (2.1) most core defensive mechanics have got a huge cost. This might seem to some like it's bringing things back to a balanced level like in 1.5 and prior. You could probably only dodge 5-6 times in 1.5 and same now. You could probably only blink 6-7 times in 1.5 and the same is most likely the case now. So why do I feel that is not the case?

The reason is the lopsided approach to increasing resource costs. It's only going on the defense that costs you a bomb on resources. Going on the offense is cheaper than ever. For example, they actually decreased class-based stamina skill costs by 20% to bring them more in line with weapon skills.

So in 1.7 you can for example dodge roll 6-7 times only, which might sound fine. But it's not when someone can spam Ambush 20+ times without any regard for his resources. In 1.5 you could probably only gap-close 7-8 times before running out of resources, while now that never happens. Similarly, blocking will have a huge stamina cost (well cost, but no regen) but somebody spamming light attack + crushing shock can keep it up forever and never drop below 80% magicka.

This change hugely favours going on the offense and hugely discourages people from going on the defense. However being defensive is only natural when you're outnumbered. It's natural to hold block if you're a tank surrounded by enemies. It's natural to start dodge-rolling or blinking when chased by 5 times your numbers.

This is an open PvP game where local combat population is never balanced. You will often outnumber enemies and often be outnumbered but rarely (if ever) will there be exact population balance in any field of combat.

When the cost of attacking is negligible but the cost of defending is massive, it's harder to survive as an outnumbered party than it ever was. In 1.7, you can't drive 2-3 players out of resources while they are attacking and you are defending. However silly they are being and however smartly you manage your own resources. That's why they call it the death of 1vX.

In my opinion this will only encourage people to get in bigger and bigger groups where you can always go on the offense and not be outnumbered. This will further hinder server performance in time, as more and more people choose the safety of numbers.

For the above reasons I believe soft-caps was a far better solution. You had to manage your offensive and defensive potential better. It gave small groups a more even change to outmaneuver and out-sustain bigger groups. It was imho more balanced and rewarded intelligent gameplay more.

TL;DR; Escaping or defending now costs more, but going on the offensive is cheaper than ever. The lopsided approach to resource costs favours bigger groups and punishes smaller groups who maintain a more defensive stance. This will potentially lead to more zerging as people will seek the safety of numbers. It's also less balanced than 1.5.

Thank you for your time

Soft caps were horrible for PvE, especially for solo players. Dying to a boss because you ran out of stamina or magicka after 2 minutes SUCKED and nobody in their right mind would want to go back to those dark days.

Bringing back soft caps now would also cause three HUGE problems:

1) Soft caps would break the Champion System, which is built around helping players improve their stats through progression... the same stats you are trying to NERF.

2) EVERY single dungeon, quest and mob encounter would have to be re-balanced to take the soft caps into account. I don't want to see Orsinium delayed by 6 months just to satisfy PvP whiners.

3) The removal of soft caps would bring back the insanity of POTION CHUGGING. Now that potions are available in the Crown Store, this would open the door to PAY-TO-WIN.... No thanks!

Only a pver would have such a stupid post rofl

vichoi · August 2015

reften wrote: »

what this does is stop players from hit and runs...basically being able to attack an entire group, take one guy down, then be invincible in getting away back to safety.

Not that I've ever done that before *cough

They're going to buff NB for doing what you said.

Armitas · August 2015

With light armor already having nothing in the way of Stamina management, coupled with a break free every 5 seconds, a dodge roll from root between every CC immunity, and blocking giving no stamina I am a little worried about the changes to block.

Ezareth · August 2015

hamon wrote: »

i somewhat agree with what you say,

however i think you need to blame all the tryhards who designed builds to farm lowbies... em i mean 1vX

then post videos all over the forums to stroke their ego's

if i was running a business and a small minority were deliberately altering their behaviour to do soemthing that could potentially lose me a load of customers . I would take similar action

would you not?

This is the same drivel you post in virtually every forum post you make. Get over it. So you were killed in someone's 1vX video. Big deal. Not even relevant to this subject.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

TL;DR; Escaping or defending now costs more, but going on the offensive is cheaper than ever. The lopsided approach to resource costs favours bigger groups and punishes smaller groups who maintain a more defensive stance. This will potentially lead to more zerging as people will seek the safety of numbers. It's also less balanced than 1.5.

Thank you for your time

First with respect to small group versus large groups. Before in Cyrodiil death had no real penalty....now with TV Stones death will have a penalty. Small groups are going to have to reconsider their position as there is even less incentive for them to not zerg. They really need to implement a large TV collection penalty for large groups or something to discourage this behavior. Hell I'd be happy if they made the entire IC zone a sort of dungeon where large groups were impossible.

Second, Defensive abilities versus offensive. I agree although for different reasons.

ZoS decided to single out specific behaviors that they didn't think were good things for nerfing instead of correcting the issue that enabled those behaviors: Insane resource generation and sustainability.

Now instead of pure offense I think many people are going to go maxmimum healing and passive defense in order to protect their TV stones. Who is going to want to charge into that group and maybe take one out but die if it means you're going to lose all of your stones in the process (or even part of them). Instead why not spam heals on yourself and your group until you can slowly wear them down and kill them....leading to some boring styles of play.

Also for the record people could dodge roll, bolt escape and block almost as much in 1.5 as they can now. Sure people can do it more now, but you never needed to do it that much to begin with. The real issue is the fact that actions no longer have a cost in live and in PTS only those 3 actions have a real cost. People are just going to exclude those actions from their combat array and instead find other abilities that they will spam to replace them.