No longer "play how you want"

DaveMoeDee · August 2015

Yattaq wrote: »

"Play how you want" does not equal "everyone is at the same level of effectiveness regardless of the choices they make about their character"

There were clearly more and less powerful builds in Skyrim. People just didn't realize (or care) when their build was crap because it was single player.

Kupoking · August 2015

Bromburak wrote: »

houimetub17_ESO wrote:

Ill try to run vet dsa with my nb tonite and upload a video. Might attempt the tanks all 4 miniboss by myself at stage 10 to prove my point.

There is no need to show if you are able to succeed vDSA with a specific class because we already out geared and out leveled the content ... One of the reason the block nerf is not a issue in the current state of the game but it will be as soon a role becomes more important like it should be from trinity and group perspective.

Thats exactly the problem, we need balanced content first to move on with pure skill that requires a tank and then compare the role with all classes. The class system failed before we out leveled things and now everyone thinks its fine.

How can the current state of difficulty (easy) be an excuse for mechanics? The content is way to easy because the only requirement is being over geared with proper CP to support insane hybrid builds.

Thats what makes us succeed group content solo, this kind of raiding is pretty much ridiculous.

I've tested the Templar tank on PTS wednesday. Yesterday I've tested the DK. I'll test the NB as soon as I can on White Gold Tower although it will be difficult because I just found out that characters were transfered before I fully leveled heavy armor so Ill have to use a template

. So far I must say that even though I felt less in control of fight in my templar, the group had overall better results than on my DK, even though I knew the fights a bit more.

But tbh a lot of people had the same comments when I started tanking with templar, that the class was not ''viable'' first en then ''on par with DKs'' to which i've proved wrong to both statements back when new content like SO / vDSA came out. Was able to complete both CoA and CoH the day patches came to live without practicing on PTS.

Note that back then, I watched Entropy Rising run SO with Atropos being a tank on a sorc and was impressed of how it went.

As far as ''Playing How You Want'', I'd say everything is viable if you have some reasoning behind it. You can randomly put abilities on a bar and wear random sets and expect to be viable, even less be dominant. The trick is to take an idea or mechanic and work from there. Find supporting armor sets, supporting abilities towards that idea.

dsalter · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Grapedragon wrote: »

I use whatever I want, I wear whatever I want and I do whatever I want.
This is a game and I'm not playing to win but to have fun. Not sure if I'm in the minority here but I'll go with whatever feels best to me

...

Did I say 'whatever' yet?

It's all about fashion anyway

If only I could justify Inner Mage Light and Bound Armaments. That combo looks seriously badass. Terrible for PvP or endgame content though.

both are awesome in pvp, just sorcs suck as stamina users compaired to all the other classes making bound armements weak.

try it with a lightning focused build and use heavy attacks, pretty fun.

VilhelmValhalla4 · August 2015

I dont mind so much the "play how you want" bit, but I wish there was more variety, maybe eschew templates and let players customize their "class skills" based on play style. Instead of classes, skills can be divided into disciplines, so you could learn a variety of skills from many disciplines, but committing to mastering one would allow for the use of powerful ultimates.

What bothers me more is the lack of "go where you want," everything feels so claustrophobic and on-rails. Players should be able to travel freely to some degree through alliances and even through the regions within each alliance. I'm not sure how levelling would work in the zones if everyone was free to travel, but I don't see why travel between cities couldn't be accomplished through other forms of transport.

Psychobunni · August 2015

"Play how you want" and "succeed at everything, no matter how you want to play" are never going to be the same.

I bet whoever @ZOS first uttered those words now cringes when players put that forth as an expectation of succeeding at everything in their chosen build(s)

It would be an incredibly boring, faceroll game if it was built that way because it would present no challenge whatsoever. Not that specific builds for specific things isn't boring to an extent as well, but if everyone could beat everything no matter their build....it would truly kill the game. (imo)

starkerealm · August 2015

dsalter wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Grapedragon wrote: »

I use whatever I want, I wear whatever I want and I do whatever I want.
This is a game and I'm not playing to win but to have fun. Not sure if I'm in the minority here but I'll go with whatever feels best to me

...

Did I say 'whatever' yet?

It's all about fashion anyway

If only I could justify Inner Mage Light and Bound Armaments. That combo looks seriously badass. Terrible for PvP or endgame content though.

both are awesome in pvp, just sorcs suck as stamina users compaired to all the other classes making bound armements weak.

try it with a lightning focused build and use heavy attacks, pretty fun.

Yeah, not what I meant. The specific combination is non-viable. Not that both abilities are crap. One's a stamina boost, and a rather nice one. The other is spell crit and magicka up, and a real workhorse ability. But, in giving up two bar slots, it's visual appeal far outstrips it's utility.

Seriously, if you haven't seen both of these turned on at once, you owe it to yourself to check it out. It looks amazing.

TequilaFire · August 2015

I just wish the game would get back to play as the developers intended, rather than what whiners want.
Sorry just too many knee jerk changes.

Audigy · August 2015

You can play as you want, I for instance play a sorcerer with pets and healing. No real damage spells used, yet I get along fine and even manage to kill boss monsters solo.
That said, if I would join a guild or dungeon group with that type of character, then people would believe I am responsible for a wipe and boot me.

MMO´s always give you freedom in what you want to do, just the players you play with don't.

Its the same story always, some pro gamer puts a guide into the net and if you don't follow this exact guide, then you are not wanted in any group related content, no matter how good you are with your own "build".

If we get spell crafting, new classes ... nothing will change. People will always cry for the perfect and most popular way, fix the people I say, but how do you want to fix that generation of gamers which is so entitled to their believe of telling others how to play video games.

TequilaFire · August 2015

Audigy wrote: »

You can play as you want, I for instance play a sorcerer with pets and healing. No real damage spells used, yet I get along fine and even manage to kill boss monsters solo.
That said, if I would join a guild or dungeon group with that type of character, then people would believe I am responsible for a wipe and boot me.

MMO´s always give you freedom in what you want to do, just the players you play with don't.

Its the same story always, some pro gamer puts a guide into the net and if you don't follow this exact guide, then you are not wanted in any group related content, no matter how good you are with your own "build".

If we get spell crafting, new classes ... nothing will change. People will always cry for the perfect and most popular way, fix the people I say, but how do you want to fix that generation of gamers which is so entitled to their believe of telling others how to play video games.

So true and those elite gamers are making money off twitch feeds, etc.

Kupoking · August 2015

EoTRampage wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

One of the selling points of this game was to be able to "play the way you want to play", but in the last year and a half the game has become meta driven and cookie cutter supreme.

In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.

The "Elder Scrolls" has a rich history of players being able to "play how they want to play", setting up their skills NOT by a predetermined set of abilities, but by bringing together skills and abilities that they like to use, and what works for them.

What this game needs is the "Spell Crafting" that was promised and showcased in July 2014, along with a custom class, not some "Dragon Knight" that has absolutely NOTHING to do with dragons, or a joke of a sorcerer that has predetermined spells. What if I want to be a Fire Sorcerer, or perhaps a Sorcerer that is a master of Frost and Alteration spells? The answer: I cant, and there is NOTHING even remotely close to choose from.

The only thing "Elder Scrolls" about ESO is the theme, the locales, and the title. Its not a game where you have the freedom to create your character and develop a uniqueness that sets you apart from everyone else, but instead, its a game where you get the exact same thing that everyone else does.

Try to cover that up by selling a few unique costumes in the crown store, but we all know that underneath that new "Ashlander Costume" is a player wearing the exact same gear as me, running the exact same skills and abilities, doing the exact same grinds over and over and over...

Im afraid I have to agree, so far that seemed like a hollow promise. Imo only 5 skills per bar also has a lot to do with the problem, not a single person will take a fun or random skill that is consider below top tier because there are no slots to waste without severly gimping yourself.

On the other hand, think of all the op build that the majority of people are not using because it's not been featured by some popular streamer/youtuber/blogger. What if I told you that I know someone who uses a bash build that can litterally kill you by spamming back. You'd most likely ask for a nerf : P

I think that unless you want to main healer or be an heavy armor dps in a raid, you can use any class/weap/armor combo out there. You even gots dual wield/magika/heavy armor NB/Sorcs/Templar out there.

starkerealm · August 2015

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

EoTRampage wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

One of the selling points of this game was to be able to "play the way you want to play", but in the last year and a half the game has become meta driven and cookie cutter supreme.

In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.

The "Elder Scrolls" has a rich history of players being able to "play how they want to play", setting up their skills NOT by a predetermined set of abilities, but by bringing together skills and abilities that they like to use, and what works for them.

What this game needs is the "Spell Crafting" that was promised and showcased in July 2014, along with a custom class, not some "Dragon Knight" that has absolutely NOTHING to do with dragons, or a joke of a sorcerer that has predetermined spells. What if I want to be a Fire Sorcerer, or perhaps a Sorcerer that is a master of Frost and Alteration spells? The answer: I cant, and there is NOTHING even remotely close to choose from.

The only thing "Elder Scrolls" about ESO is the theme, the locales, and the title. Its not a game where you have the freedom to create your character and develop a uniqueness that sets you apart from everyone else, but instead, its a game where you get the exact same thing that everyone else does.

Try to cover that up by selling a few unique costumes in the crown store, but we all know that underneath that new "Ashlander Costume" is a player wearing the exact same gear as me, running the exact same skills and abilities, doing the exact same grinds over and over and over...

Im afraid I have to agree, so far that seemed like a hollow promise. Imo only 5 skills per bar also has a lot to do with the problem, not a single person will take a fun or random skill that is consider below top tier because there are no slots to waste without severly gimping yourself.

On the other hand, think of all the op build that the majority of people are not using because it's not been featured by some popular streamer/youtuber/blogger. What if I told you that I know someone who uses a bash build that can litterally kill you by spamming back. You'd most likely ask for a nerf : P

I think that unless you want to main healer, you can use any class/weap/armor combo out there. You even gots dual wield/magika/heavy armor NB/Sorcs/Templar out there.

I was watching a DW, Heavy Armor, Imperial NB wrecking people last night, while I was tinkering with that Sorc tank build.

kevlarto_ESO · August 2015

Play as you want is over rated, some folks want to play in a way that the game mechanics just do not allow, play as you want in any game has its limits, I think the fact in ESO any class can wear any armor and use any weapon, be magic or stamina or a little of both, sure some of these builds would not get you though the trials, or pvp, they never said play as want and all builds will be awesome sauce. Plus after b2p was announced anything said before that is pretty much out the window.

I have not heard them use the "Play as you want" selling point for a long time now, but I did not follow the console they may have used it there don't know.

Xendyn · August 2015

Audigy wrote: »

You can play as you want, I for instance play a sorcerer with pets and healing. No real damage spells used, yet I get along fine and even manage to kill boss monsters solo.
That said, if I would join a guild or dungeon group with that type of character, then people would believe I am responsible for a wipe and boot me.

MMO´s always give you freedom in what you want to do, just the players you play with don't.

Its the same story always, some pro gamer puts a guide into the net and if you don't follow this exact guide, then you are not wanted in any group related content, no matter how good you are with your own "build".

If we get spell crafting, new classes ... nothing will change. People will always cry for the perfect and most popular way, fix the people I say, but how do you want to fix that generation of gamers which is so entitled to their believe of telling others how to play video games.

I never wanted to play pets on my Sorc (came here to be a ranged caster) but you do. There is variety out there and I entirely agree that it's people that make the restrictions on themselves and others.
Just like RL, so not really a surprise.
This whole thing reminds me of all the flailing about pre 1.6 for Sorcs (some of which I did myself lol). Turned out ok in the end though. I learned my lesson on that one and now I'm in the "Keep calm and see how it plays out" camp.

A little something for you and your pets @Audigy. Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpI2CbPtyFA

Waffennacht · August 2015

His build is soooooo similar to mine. I use sword and shield, i notice he uses bound armor, I had traded it in for my shield. Now Im not sure if I should bring it back.

Tanky, Sorc, with Pets is what im all about, enjoyed that clip

Reminds me of in a dungeon and ur low level buddy dies and its all up to you to kill the boss

Of course you can mess a build up. Go all magicka and set up your bar with melee abilities, you'll do poorly.

Again, I do see a variety, and successful variety.

Of course you have staples, every card game, video game i have ever played has had staples, its the amount of staples that vary

Cathexis · August 2015

Yattaq wrote: »

"Play how you want" does not equal "everyone is at the same level of effectiveness regardless of the choices they make about their character"

@ This is a crappy argument because it is just denial that continues to promote cookie cutter play styles.

Let's say for a moment that everyone accepts this argument. Do I get into trials? Am I able to be successful in PvP? No. Because those groups demand cookie cutter styles.

So the reality of your unequal effectiveness argument is the exact same result as not being able to play how you want.

All this argument does is use semantics to justify continued cookie cutting and a lack of real development on the part of zenimax.

badmojo · August 2015

Some people want to play like they're the best thing to ever walk the face of Tamriel, then they complain when their random build can't do that. You want Max, but then complain the game is too min/max.

Gidorick · August 2015

Honestly... to me this sounds like a problem with the community and not ESO.

starkerealm · August 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Honestly... to me this sounds like a problem with the community and not ESO.

You know this one, you've been here long enough. We've got a large contingent of players who have latched on to the "one right way" to play each role, and then when they've looked at the other classes and saw that they filled the same roles differently said, "that can't be right," took out a mallet and started trying to pound round pegs into square holes.

Gidorick · August 2015

starkerealm wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Honestly... to me this sounds like a problem with the community and not ESO.

You know this one, you've been here long enough. We've got a large contingent of players who have latched on to the "one right way" to play each role, and then when they've looked at the other classes and saw that they filled the same roles differently said, "that can't be right," took out a mallet and started trying to pound round pegs into square holes.

lol @starkerealm, well put!

Azurulia · August 2015

Rosveen wrote: »

Skyrim crafting is stupidly broken. I don't know why anyone would want that Bethesda kind of balance in an MMO.

Because a lot of players don't want it in an MMO, they want it in "Skyrim 2" and "Skyrim with friends."

Let's not forget ESO is the first MMO for a LOT of people. They don't udnerstand MMO balance, and seem to greatly dislike it without realizing how their actions effect other players, unlike in the previous TES games when it only effects you. Whiohc is exactly why you could become a god. Your warpath wouldn't trample over anyone's flowerbeds.

In an MMO? yeah... not so much the same.

Xexpo · August 2015

spellcrafting may never come as the guy who was designing it no longer works at zos

Osteos · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.

Okay, this is utter shank. If someone tells you you need to run with "this specific loadout" or you can't succeed. Crack them across the head and find competent players to run with.

This includes the sites that write off a bunch of the skills as useless, or tells you that it's impossible to fill any role with any class. Yes, they crunched the numbers. Yes, they're also completely wrong.

Some combinations of skills aren't going to work, but there are very few truly worthless skills in the game. The worst case are skills that are very conditional in their uses.

See if your way of thinking can finish a DSA run in normal mode, or a no death run in COA. You are also dead wrong my friend, its meta gear & cookie cutter builds or nothing.

I recently had a very successful vDSA run with a nightblade healer. The options are there people just need to use them. If someone kicks you from a group or refuses to let you join find someone else.

Lito · August 2015

I'm around 25 with my DK and so far I'm playing how I want. Dual wielding and using bows with heavy armor? I'mdoing it and so far had zero problems. Pretty sure I must wait to reach endgame before I jump into any conclusions tho.

I'm quite experienced in item based building games (arpgs in general), and no matter how much devs try to balance, there will ALWAYS exist a optimum build that performs better then everything else. It's impossible to run away from that. The key thing is making lots of builds viable. For example, my heavy armor bow dk obviously won't be the best at endgame, and I actually expect that, but it should be viable. It should be playable. I think this is what the OP rant went about.

arena25 · August 2015

You can play however you want. You can experiment with different abilities, different gear, different weapons...the possibilities are endless.

I play with 2 pieces of heavy armor and 3 pieces of light armor, and I do just fine. I can play however I want.

There's freedom.

Also, I've only used one set of abilities, and I've only died once (due to lag). Cookie cutter argument is invalid, I can probably still beat someone with only light armor and no shield and one one-handed weapon (makes me wonder why there is no one-handed skill line).

That's my $.02 on this.

Signed,
Arena25

starkerealm · August 2015

paleobonesb14_ESO wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Goldie wrote: »

In order to play a viable class a player must run a certain build, in specific gear, and have a nearly identical skill rotation as every other player. This makes for players all running around in the same gear, with the same skills, spamming nearly the exact same abilities in order to be successful.

Okay, this is utter shank. If someone tells you you need to run with "this specific loadout" or you can't succeed. Crack them across the head and find competent players to run with.

This includes the sites that write off a bunch of the skills as useless, or tells you that it's impossible to fill any role with any class. Yes, they crunched the numbers. Yes, they're also completely wrong.

Some combinations of skills aren't going to work, but there are very few truly worthless skills in the game. The worst case are skills that are very conditional in their uses.

See if your way of thinking can finish a DSA run in normal mode, or a no death run in COA. You are also dead wrong my friend, its meta gear & cookie cutter builds or nothing.

I recently had a very successful vDSA run with a nightblade healer. The options are there people just need to use them. If someone kicks you from a group or refuses to let you join find someone else.

Honestly, the people that say NBs can't be healers really baffle me. All I can assume is, they've never seen the morphs for Soul Shred and Strife.

bigcj1983188 · August 2015

Reeko wrote: »

Think about it. There WILL ALWAYS BE A MIN/MAX META IN ANY RPG YOU PLAY. The fact you play by yourself in other TeS games means you just never learn about it. You CAN play however you want. Does 3% extra hp make that big a deal?

Vahrokh · August 2015

Goldie wrote: »

VoidBlue wrote: »

Lol you need spellcrafting because no one will want to copy the best spell craft spells that everyone else uses.

There are over 600 variations of spells with the spell crafting that was showcased, its essentially a 'custom' build, as it should be for any game that claims to be "Elder Scrolls" which ESO is not.

Out of these 600 there is ONE that is better than any others. Everyone SHALL use it and every party / raid leader SHALL demand it.

The Uninvited · August 2015

PBpsy wrote: »

I found it quite funny that the pts test gear bags provide all of the necessary gear to fit only the current build meta for all builds though.

Has anybody noticed that?

Thanks for the nice MK,Adroit and Cyro light pieces ZOS.

Yeah, I noticed. Thought it was funny that they copied the meta's for magicka or stamina users and tanks (bag has Whitestrake, Yokuda and Footman).

RDMyers65b14_ESO · August 2015

The Uninvited wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

I found it quite funny that the pts test gear bags provide all of the necessary gear to fit only the current build meta for all builds though.

Has anybody noticed that?

Thanks for the nice MK,Adroit and Cyro light pieces ZOS.

Yeah, I noticed. Thought it was funny that they copied the meta's for magicka or stamina users and tanks (bag has Whitestrake, Yokuda and Footman).

Could it be possible that they put those sets because those are the ones that are the most popular and they don't want to hear the 'I wanna test my armor' like they did before? Just wait until the EU copy goes on the PTS and at least one thread will pop up complaining about not being able to use the character or armor they have on live.

UltimaJoe777 · August 2015

If you let the metas persuade you from playing how you want that's your problem but I will ALWAYS play how I want regardless of how it goes or what people think. All I will do if need be is focus on improving my way rather than taking their highway.

#PeerPressure

#HashTagsAreLame

#GimmeBackMySweetRoll

#Renegade4Life

#Kamehamehokayimdone