Do I have to spell it out for you? Veteran Ranks will NEVER go away.

ontheleftcoast · July 2015

The single biggest reason is gear followed closely by consumables. If the developers take away "veteran ranks" they will either have to do something to striate/differentiate long time players from those just finishing the main quest or every item ranked VR1 thru VR13 (and soon VR15) will become worthless as Used Bait. I've seen this happen in Diablo III. Once your toon achieved level 60 then suddenly every top tier (then level 63) gear was available to you. And since even the worst roll of a level 63 set still ran rings around anything that was level 62 the entire economy of the game became "How do I get enough gold to buy that level 63 set?" Nobody, and I mean *NOBODY*, cared about level 61 and 62 gear.

Which means if they get rid of all the difference between VR1 and VR16 toons then all the materials and recipes for making what was VR7 gear or VR10 potions (they're coming out with VR15 consumables I've been told) will become vendor trash overnight. The howls from the community will be loud and long. Rage quitting will become the new "arrow to the knee" and what ESO will be known for. So the developers are going to have to find a way to make it so freshly minted toons aren't donning the gear of long time veterans. What ever that mechanism is called it will be the moral equivalent of veteran ranks. Which begs the question, "Why get rid of them in the first place?"

What they really need is a different way to get from VR1 to VR14 (and soon VR16). Right now your options are -- Cadwell's (which I happen to like but for some people it's like nails on a chalkboard while getting their teeth pulled without anesthetic) or getting your ass handed to you by gankers as you play thru PvP in Cyrodiil. Neither option works very well. There was this other way that they deemed unsuitable -- grinding -- that worked. They need to bring back grinding. It's that simple. It takes me about 8-10 hours to thoroughly complete each zone in Cadwell's. Say you're good at it and can do each one in 6 hours. Going thru all 10 zones (with the little noob islands tossed in) will take from 60 to 100 hours and you'll be VR10 to VR12 depending on how thorough you were. Grinding should be returned but be somewhat faster than going thru Cadwell's. Say 30-40 hours of grinding to get to VR10. Why give them an advantage in time? Because playing thru the quests could be tweeked to be more rewarding. Give those of us who quest thru Cadwell's something worth having, like 20 more skill points, and maybe some purple and gold items that don't reek of fetid guar droppings. (I'm calling you out, Meridia's Beacon)

By bringing back grinding the game would become more "play as you want" than it is now. People who want to rush to get competitive in Cyrodiil will have a path to do it and those of us who love to muddle thru and soak up all that Tamriel has to offer will still have something to look forward to as we hit VR4 or VR9. Anyways that's my thoughts on the midgame in ESO.

JDar · July 2015

I think you are right. Removing Veteran Ranks would be a lot more painful than it's worth, and would inevitably bug a lot of things out. May as well leave them in. If they came out and said, ok we're not doing it for this reason, I wouldn't even be mad. May as well raise it up to VR20 just to make it a nice round number too.

Akavir_Sentinel · July 2015

They stated at QuakeCon that they are trying to find a way to remove the veteran rank system, but can't do it until they find something to replace it with, because the veteran ranks are involved in absolutely every part of the game.

Personally, I'd rather they leave them in and just increase the cap every once in a while.

Paske · July 2015

You are right ...

ontheleftcoast · July 2015

VR20?! TWENTY! Why that's just crazy talk! ;D

I'm actually OK with them occasionally raising the VR levels. Maybe every 6 months or once a year add two more VR levels with a good sized DLC to deliver the new materials for crafting the gear.

Sausage · July 2015

Silver and Gold was never meant to be endgame progression, it was just meant for players who prefer to play one char. Im one myself, Ive my main and then alts. The way I see Silver and Gold was like emergency endgame fix, as there was no Craglorn, or CP system at launch. So I'd follow that plan.

MCMancub · July 2015

The simple solution is to just scale everything according to CP. We're all going after it anyways.

EDIT: I guess I can expand a little on my original response.

Without enlightenment, each Veteran Rank is equal to 8.5 CP after U7.
With enlightenment, each Veteran Rank is equal to 2.125 CP after U7.

Average it out to around 5 CP/Veteran Rank.

Break gear and consumables into 5 "tiers": 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 CP. Then, instead of having milestones at every Veteran Rank from VR1 to VR16 (16 total milestones), you get 5 total milestones, leveling through all averages about the same experience as going from VR1 to VR20, though this can be shortened with enlightenment to be more like 11 or 12 Veteran Ranks.

Mobs themselves don't need to follow this progression tier. Simply make them all level 50 with varying difficulties based on location and encounter.

The numbers may not be exact, but I think it's a simple enough solution to work. The total time to get through all of the milestone would be shorter, each crafting component could fit into a tier, and gear/consumables could be scaled easily as well.

NOTE: It's important to realize that the CP "tiers" I talk about only refer to the requirements the gear/consumables may be at that tier. There may very well be content in the 100 CP "tier" that is not recommended for players under 300 CP, or whatever.

Psychobunni · July 2015

My personal hope is that they simply replace it with numbers. Least fuss scenario, easy to change VX to #X and keep going.

They can even say "look, we did get rid of vet ranks"

Zusia211 · July 2015

If you said you needed to spell it out for people should you at least given a space between each letter?

Cuyler · July 2015

Go watch the quakecon presentation again pls....they are COMITTED to removing them and replacing it with CP scaling but not until at least after Q1 2016.

ontheleftcoast · July 2015

Cuyler wrote: »

Go watch the quakecon presentation again pls....they are COMITTED to removing them and replacing it with CP scaling but not until at least after Q1 2016.

Then they're going to replace one system some people dislike with another system some people dislike and have either broken the game entirely or fixed nothing. VR levels aren't the problem, differentiation is the problem, if they take it away they *** of their most loyal customers, if they keep it they *** off new ones. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem for them. They can't make it fair for everyone because it can't be. At some point somebody at Zenimax will (hopefully) wake up and realize they're wasting their time. There are literally hundreds of bugs that could be fixed instead. And of those maybe a couple of dozen game breaking ones. Why the hell waste their time doing something pointless when they could be fixing the damn game? Or adding new content? Changing the veteran system won't help anything. Period.

Oh, and if they make it scale purely on CP then I want all my CP back they stole from me. I leveled multiple toons to VR12 before CP came along and getting only 70 CP for that was a kick in the crotch. If CP is the new VR then I want those points back, dammit.

egan_ESO · July 2015

I don't disagree with the OP that to change Veteran ranks now would be such a big drastic shift for the games system that it would require a massive adjustment to the game itself. I feel like if they were going to do that they would have done it before the console release, as now we've got all these people reaching veteran ranks it would be weird to just reset them.

How would they even do it?

MCMancub · July 2015

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Go watch the quakecon presentation again pls....they are COMITTED to removing them and replacing it with CP scaling but not until at least after Q1 2016.

Then they're going to replace one system some people dislike with another system some people dislike and have either broken the game entirely or fixed nothing. VR levels aren't the problem, differentiation is the problem, if they take it away they *** of their most loyal customers, if they keep it they *** off new ones. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem for them. They can't make it fair for everyone because it can't be. At some point somebody at Zenimax will (hopefully) wake up and realize they're wasting their time. There are literally hundreds of bugs that could be fixed instead. And of those maybe a couple of dozen game breaking ones. Why the hell waste their time doing something pointless when they could be fixing the damn game? Or adding new content? Changing the veteran system won't help anything. Period.

Oh, and if they make it scale purely on CP then I want all my CP back they stole from me. I leveled multiple toons to VR12 before CP came along and getting only 70 CP for that was a kick in the crotch. If CP is the new VR then I want those points back, dammit.

Under the system I proposed, VR12 would be equal to 60 CP, so getting 70 CP for VR12 is pretty good.

Akavir_Sentinel · July 2015

If they had kept track of veteran XP gained after VR14 like they said they were going to, I'd be VR31 right now. Instead, we got 70 CP as compensation.

Sausage · July 2015

Maybe thats the problem. Some people want to see Silver and Gold as endgame progression what everyone needs to go through, go through Main story, Silver and Gold. I'd prefer to see Craglorn, Orsinium, vet Dungeons and Cyrodil to be the endgame, then player can choose to start making alts or see Silver and Gold zones with their main.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2015

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

The single biggest reason is gear followed closely by consumables. If the developers take away "veteran ranks" they will either have to do something to striate/differentiate long time players from those just finishing the main quest or every item ranked VR1 thru VR13 (and soon VR15) will become worthless as Used Bait.

Of course. However, my understanding was this is the intended purpose of the Champion System. Instead of VR14 gear, we will have Champion Rank 500 gear, etc.

It's a long grind to get to the end, but in the meantime any new characters you make will instantly be able to use all your champion points and wear your highest champion rank gear as soon as you complete 1-50.

MCMancub wrote: »

The simple solution is to just scale everything according to CP. We're all going after it anyways.

Yes, I believe that is the point of the Champion System, this was intended from the beginning. Instead of 14 ranks, now we have 3600 ranks (or as you mention, say CP Rank 300 gear, Rank 400, etc.) I would be surprised if that were not the case.
.

ontheleftcoast · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Go watch the quakecon presentation again pls....they are COMITTED to removing them and replacing it with CP scaling but not until at least after Q1 2016.

Then they're going to replace one system some people dislike with another system some people dislike and have either broken the game entirely or fixed nothing. VR levels aren't the problem, differentiation is the problem, if they take it away they *** of their most loyal customers, if they keep it they *** off new ones. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem for them. They can't make it fair for everyone because it can't be. At some point somebody at Zenimax will (hopefully) wake up and realize they're wasting their time. There are literally hundreds of bugs that could be fixed instead. And of those maybe a couple of dozen game breaking ones. Why the hell waste their time doing something pointless when they could be fixing the damn game? Or adding new content? Changing the veteran system won't help anything. Period.

Oh, and if they make it scale purely on CP then I want all my CP back they stole from me. I leveled multiple toons to VR12 before CP came along and getting only 70 CP for that was a kick in the crotch. If CP is the new VR then I want those points back, dammit.

Under the system I proposed, VR12 would be equal to 60 CP, so getting 70 CP for VR12 is pretty good.

For *ONE* VR12, but I had 3 of them. And several VR6 toons as well. All 8 of my slots were veteran ranked toons. That should've been something like 200-250 CP, not 70. But since it wasn't going to be a huge factor in differentiating characters it wasn't a big deal. But if they make this change it will be and that's not right.

MCMancub · July 2015

Sausage wrote: »

Maybe thats the problem. Some people want to see Silver and Gold as endgame progression what everyone needs to go through, go through Main story, Silver and Gold. I'd prefer to see Craglorn, Orsinium, vet Dungeons and Cyrodil to be the endgame, then player can choose to start making alts or see Silver and Gold zones with their main.

The problem is that Silver/Gold offer so much easy XP for CP and skill points that you'd have to be trying to handicap yourself to skip them.

Pallmor · July 2015

I knew when they launched the console version with them that they were never going away. The fact that they made a point of highlighting them as a feature in the console release trailer and that they are adding two more levels with IC only confirmed this even more.

Francescolg · July 2015

*not related to the posts before

Veteran Ranks should be removed. ZOS should start to be SINCERE and simply call them-what they really are-LEVELS

VR 14 = Level 64
VR 16 = Level 66
etc...

No explanations needed, everything would be "logical" and further more SINCERE!

MCMancub · July 2015

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Go watch the quakecon presentation again pls....they are COMITTED to removing them and replacing it with CP scaling but not until at least after Q1 2016.

Then they're going to replace one system some people dislike with another system some people dislike and have either broken the game entirely or fixed nothing. VR levels aren't the problem, differentiation is the problem, if they take it away they *** of their most loyal customers, if they keep it they *** off new ones. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem for them. They can't make it fair for everyone because it can't be. At some point somebody at Zenimax will (hopefully) wake up and realize they're wasting their time. There are literally hundreds of bugs that could be fixed instead. And of those maybe a couple of dozen game breaking ones. Why the hell waste their time doing something pointless when they could be fixing the damn game? Or adding new content? Changing the veteran system won't help anything. Period.

Oh, and if they make it scale purely on CP then I want all my CP back they stole from me. I leveled multiple toons to VR12 before CP came along and getting only 70 CP for that was a kick in the crotch. If CP is the new VR then I want those points back, dammit.

Under the system I proposed, VR12 would be equal to 60 CP, so getting 70 CP for VR12 is pretty good.

For *ONE* VR12, but I had 3 of them. And several VR6 toons as well. All 8 of my slots were veteran ranked toons. That should've been something like 200-250 CP, not 70. But since it wasn't going to be a huge factor in differentiating characters it wasn't a big deal. But if they make this change it will be and that's not right.

I gotcha. Sorry, I misread.

Akavir_Sentinel · July 2015

Either way they handle it, players are still going to have to grind and put in the time and effort required to get to max level, and there will still be players who will whine about having to do it.

Sausage · July 2015

MCMancub wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

Maybe thats the problem. Some people want to see Silver and Gold as endgame progression what everyone needs to go through, go through Main story, Silver and Gold. I'd prefer to see Craglorn, Orsinium, vet Dungeons and Cyrodil to be the endgame, then player can choose to start making alts or see Silver and Gold zones with their main.

The problem is that Silver/Gold offer so much easy XP for CP and skill points that you'd have to be trying to handicap yourself to skip them.

It needs balancing. Two vision basically mash into each other so no wonder its so popular topic. But everyone gotta remember its Zen's choice in the end.

ontheleftcoast · July 2015

Sausage wrote: »

It needs balancing. Two vision basically mash into each other so no wonder its so popular topic. But everyone gotta remember its Zen's choice in the end.

"Two visions basically mash into each other..."

Man, you just described everything wrong with ESOTU in seven words. It's a single-player game that very rarely forces you to play with a group. It's a PvP game that's really AvA that doesn't work because of lag. It's long term role playing without housing. It's a war in Cyrodiil that you never have to fight while also being a battle against Molag Bal that you can completely ignore.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2015

f

Francescolg wrote: »

*not related to the posts before

Veteran Ranks should be removed. ZOS should start to be SINCERE and simply call them-what they really are-LEVELS

VR 14 = Level 64
VR 16 = Level 66
etc...

No explanations needed, everything would be "logical" and further more SINCERE!

Do you really care about changing numbers from something with a V to something else?

I imagine the reason most people dislike the veteran ranks is not because it has a V in front, but because it takes too long to level from V1 to V14, especially leveling your second and third alt, etc.

The Champion System replacing Veteran Ranks will address this in a way because it is account wide and it is easy to level from 1 - 50 in a day or two.

However, I hope they improve the enlightenment mechanic to stack longer than 12 days, as many players who take a break from the game for whatever reason may become hesitant to return if it seems impossible to catch up. Same goes for people who just bought the game. If their first experience in Cyrodiil is getting REKT by players wearing Champion Rank 3,600 gear, etc., they might get frustrated and quit when they realize it would take years to catch up.

Uriel_Nocturne · July 2015

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

They stated at QuakeCon that they are trying to find a way to remove the veteran rank system, but can't do it until they find something to replace it with, because the veteran ranks are involved in absolutely every part of the game.

Personally, I'd rather they leave them in and just increase the cap every once in a while.

Quoted for truth as I cannot agree with it more.

Well said.

However, I hear talk of the "console N00bs" being miffed about having to grind out all of those VR levels when PC players just transferred their existing VR10+ characters as is.

Personally, I don't care about the Veteran Ranks. They can stay (which is probably what will happen considering that the IC DLC is going to launch with two additional Ranks), and the grind to get through the Veteran Ranks is part of the experience.

Since ESOTU launched on the consoles, I've now hit level 43.5 and am working on the Pact Hero achievement. I cannot wait to hit the Veteran Ranks so that I can get really involved in creating just the armor/weapons I want, as the grind (like most every other MMO has...) means that I will be wearing the same armor for a while, so I may as well make armor/weapons I love.

And it is very true in a way; the saying that once you hit the "end game Epic" levels, that the game really opens up. I believe that it's true here in the same way it's true for other MMO's.

Personally, I think the Veteran ranks should stay. They're already implemented, ingrained in every aspect of the game from what I can tell, and many people have already committed many avatars to getting to VR12-14. The other reason I want them to stay is fear. Fear that since the VR's are so ingrained into the game, that removing and replacing them with something else may irrevocably break this game.

Frankly; I enjoy this game way too much (*coughaddictioncough*) to want to even take the chance of having it get broken to the realm of unplayability.

Just my opinion.

Tamanous · July 2015

ZOS recently game the time line for removal of vet ranks. Confirmed. Look it up.

ontheleftcoast · July 2015

Tamanous wrote: »

ZOS recently game the time line for removal of vet ranks. Confirmed. Look it up.

LOL, from the company that has the patent on "Soon". Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it.

Pallmor · July 2015

Tamanous wrote: »

ZOS recently game the time line for removal of vet ranks. Confirmed. Look it up.

Yeah, the timeline is "At some point in the future we will announce that at some point in the future they will be removed (probably)."

OrangeTheCat · July 2015

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

They stated at QuakeCon that they are trying to find a way to remove the veteran rank system, but can't do it until they find something to replace it with, because the veteran ranks are involved in absolutely every part of the game.

Personally, I'd rather they leave them in and just increase the cap every once in a while.

Wasn't the Champion System originally billed as the replacement of which you speak?

Akavir_Sentinel · July 2015

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

They stated at QuakeCon that they are trying to find a way to remove the veteran rank system, but can't do it until they find something to replace it with, because the veteran ranks are involved in absolutely every part of the game.

Personally, I'd rather they leave them in and just increase the cap every once in a while.

Wasn't the Champion System originally billed as the replacement of which you speak?

Yes, but it didn't turn out that way.

Do I have to spell it out for you? Veteran Ranks will *NEVER* go away.

Do I have to spell it out for you? Veteran Ranks will NEVER go away.