Add Major Brutality to Blade Cloak instead of Hidden Blade

Lynx7386 · July 2015

Upcoming changes state that dual wield's hidden blade ability (morphs being flying blade and shrouded daggers) will provide the major brutality buff to the player (+20% weapon damage for an unspecified duration). This change is obviously intended to help steer people away from the 2handed tree, which uses momentum/forward momentum/rally for the same buff. Currently a lot of players feel forced to use 2handed just for that buff so they can gain extra damage on their other weapon types. The idea behind adding major brutality to dual wield is a good one, but you're going about it the wrong way (@ZOS).

First off, one of the main reasons that people like momentum and it's morphs is because the buff can be applied to yourself outside of combat, and while in stealth. This means that a stealthing player in cyrodiil can gain 20% extra weapon damage for his sneak attack on another player (or similarly in pve). Currently, other forms of the major brutality buff (power extraction, for example) require you to hit a target first to get the damage bonus, which means you arent going to be using it for stealth attacks.
Adding Major brutality to hidden blade winds up with the same problem - it's a targeted attack that you cant use unless you have an enemy nearby. This will cause people to just continue using momentum instead of their own weapon line for the buff.

Second, Hidden blade is a very situational ability. It's a moderately ranged, single target attack. This is something that many builds arent even going to use in their everyday play. I'm not saying it's not used often, just that depending on the situation it isnt an ideal ability to have on your bar. Adding major brutality to such a situational ability is not going to promote it's use any more than what we have now.

Finally, there is a much better candidate in the dual wield line for this buff. Blade cloak provides 20% reduced damage from AoE effects for a moderate duration, and does a small amount of damage every few seconds to nearby enemies. This is a buff that can be activated in stealth without enemies around, which means it's good for problem #1.

Not a lot of builds use blade cloak right now, because it's frankly a crap skill unless you're in the middle of a pvp wrecking ball or fighting bosses in endgame pve, and even then 20% less aoe damage is not going to increase your lifespan all that much. Adding major brutality to blade cloak, however, would make the other perks stand out a bit more (in much the same manner as having it on momentum makes it that much more desirable as a snare removal tool or self heal).

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

I have made many thread's regarding this issue aswell.

Flying blade is the worst skill to recieve this. If im a bow user who want's to use DW aswell, i end up using a slot for a ranged attack when i have an entire bar for it already.

Blade cloak is a terrible skill to begin with though. Even if blade cloak got major brut, i would'nt use it.

I think they should just add more ability's that give Major Brut.

Im going to be stuck using potions for crit and major brut with my dw/bow setup when IC DLC goes live. So annoying.
.
.
.
I get since this is a class specific skill that they want to give dw major brut. However I think the only problem is Nb's. It's only Nb's that get stuck. Give Nb's Major Brut on Blur or Evasion and this is fixed.

Evasion would be nice since nobody use's it.

TheBull · July 2015

I like that idea.

CP5 · July 2015

Last I tried it blade cloak did kick me out of stealth. Usable out of combat yes, but does anyone know for sure if you stay hidden after using it?

Reeko · July 2015

Blade cloak does, indeed, kick you out of stealth momentarily. I'm currently useing it right now as i type this. It is rather annoying.

TheBull · July 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Last I tried it blade cloak did kick me out of stealth. Usable out of combat yes, but does anyone know for sure if you stay hidden after using it?

aah good point it does.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2015

IMO momentum does need re-work so ti isn't this crutch skill that you need to PvP with like mage light.

First it only applies to the 2H weapon when you have it equiped soon as you swap weapons it turns off you get what ever heals built up and no damage bonus tot eh other weapon. Second you become unstealthed when you use it in stealth since you brung that up.

Again these are my opinions about rally sure I use it to 2H tank but been expairamenting with brawler which side note they need to buff bleed damage. Sure 2200 something is good for bleed damage but over a course of 10 seconds not so much.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

IMO momentum does need re-work so ti isn't this crutch skill that you need to PvP with like mage light.

First it only applies to the 2H weapon when you have it equiped soon as you swap weapons it turns off you get what ever heals built up and no damage bonus tot eh other weapon. Second you become unstealthed when you use it in stealth since you brung that up.

Again these are my opinions about rally sure I use it to 2H tank but been expairamenting with brawler which side note they need to buff bleed damage. Sure 2200 something is good for bleed damage but over a course of 10 seconds not so much.

I agree, they gave rally to much.

Rally should take you out of stealth and only effect 2hand plus 2h skill's! This way DW is on par with 2h if you use nb abilities.

Lynx7386 · July 2015

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

IMO momentum does need re-work so ti isn't this crutch skill that you need to PvP with like mage light.

First it only applies to the 2H weapon when you have it equiped soon as you swap weapons it turns off you get what ever heals built up and no damage bonus tot eh other weapon. Second you become unstealthed when you use it in stealth since you brung that up.

Again these are my opinions about rally sure I use it to 2H tank but been expairamenting with brawler which side note they need to buff bleed damage. Sure 2200 something is good for bleed damage but over a course of 10 seconds not so much.

I agree, they gave rally to much.

Rally should take you out of stealth and only effect 2hand plus 2h skill's! This way DW is on par with 2h if you use nb abilities.

If by "on par" you mean "vastly better", I'd agree. Dual wield pulls off roughly the same single target damage that 2h does right now, even without major brutality in the dw tree. In ideal circumstances, dual wield easily outperforms 2h for even single target damage. However, dual wield -vastly- outperforms 2h when it comes to AoE damage.

So right now we have 2h, which used to be the worst melee weapon line, only being used to buff other weapons with momentum/rally. Take that away, and two handed becomes bottom tier again. Unless you're going to counter any changes to rally with other improvements to the 2h tree, dont go messing with it.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2015

Lynx7386 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

IMO momentum does need re-work so ti isn't this crutch skill that you need to PvP with like mage light.

First it only applies to the 2H weapon when you have it equiped soon as you swap weapons it turns off you get what ever heals built up and no damage bonus tot eh other weapon. Second you become unstealthed when you use it in stealth since you brung that up.

Again these are my opinions about rally sure I use it to 2H tank but been expairamenting with brawler which side note they need to buff bleed damage. Sure 2200 something is good for bleed damage but over a course of 10 seconds not so much.

I agree, they gave rally to much.

Rally should take you out of stealth and only effect 2hand plus 2h skill's! This way DW is on par with 2h if you use nb abilities.

If by "on par" you mean "vastly better", I'd agree. Dual wield pulls off roughly the same single target damage that 2h does right now, even without major brutality in the dw tree. In ideal circumstances, dual wield easily outperforms 2h for even single target damage. However, dual wield -vastly- outperforms 2h when it comes to AoE damage.

So right now we have 2h, which used to be the worst melee weapon line, only being used to buff other weapons with momentum/rally. Take that away, and two handed becomes bottom tier again. Unless you're going to counter any changes to rally with other improvements to the 2h tree, dont go messing with it.

I have to dis-agree that taking away rally able to buff any weapon that's the only reason players are using 2H (next to WB but that skill is just OP). Making it only applie to the 2H is only IMO gonna benifit it cause it means that they have to use the actual weapon and not just it's bonus that's the point of a weapon skill. But yes some 2H skills do need some love such as carve and it's morphs some passives too

asteldian · July 2015

I disagree with the idea that no one would use Hidden Blade for the brutality buff. Outside of PvP hidden blade is superior to Rally because it does damage and applies the buff whereas Rally doesn't and is a bigger dps loss when using it. 20% damage buff with a skill that does damage is awesome and for pve is far better than adding it to a skill like the one you suggest.
Now, PvP wise you are right that Rally has an edge thanks to heals and out of combat usage. But 2h needs to be useful somewhere

R0M2K · July 2015

@Zos @OP

Make it so it PASIVELY while skill is equiped adds the Major Brutality bonus = Problem solved.

Jar_Ek · July 2015

Unless blade cloak was substantially improved, even with brutality added, it still wouldn't be used.

The reason rally / momentum is so good is that it is a stamina heal that does not require a high PvP rank that is both a hot and a burst heal... and it also provide a weapon buff!

Blade cloak is a poor pbaoe dot, with some aoe mitigation (why this was ever considered a good idea eludes me - don't stand in the red!). If you add a weapon buff to it then you end up with one reason to take it... the buff.

It would be a helluva lot better if the aoe mitigation was dropped in favour of a more general protection buff (8%) and the dot was scaled up. Then adding brutality and it becomes a choice rather than a no-brainer in favour of momentum.

One other thing whilst we're on the subject of dw, please fix bleeds so they actually tick on everything and add them to the list of triggers for ruffian (the dw passive that increase damage vs impaired targets).

Leandor · July 2015

CP5 wrote: »

Last I tried it blade cloak did kick me out of stealth. Usable out of combat yes, but does anyone know for sure if you stay hidden after using it?

This. Blade cloak will take you out of stealth.

Can we get that fixed, ZOS?

RavenSkylord · July 2015

Just throwing in 2 cents, since concensus is blade cloak is useless, and seems they want the ability bottom tree, then why not drop blade cloak and rewrite it to mirror Momentum, i.e, Major Brutality and healing effects?

Leandor · July 2015

Don't touch my blade cloak.

Edit: well, you may make it stronger, of course. Add brutality is fine.

P3ZZL3 · July 2015

Ok, so an obvious question from someone who is not a Min/Maxer PVP specialist.

Why should a class, have a passive/armour buff whilst being stealthed, and then have the ability to have an additional shield which can be enhanced heavily from CP, which would then given them another buff in brutality.

Seems somewhat OP'd to be *shrugs*.

If they are going to have that capability (of the shield and the buff) then at the very minimum they should be pulled out of stealth mode.

Seems like a case of wanting cake and eating it.

Leandor · July 2015

@P3ZZL3, what is this shield you are talking of?

EDIT to respond to another post:

R0M2K wrote: »

@Zos @OP

Make it so it PASIVELY while skill is equiped adds the Major Brutality bonus = Problem solved.

This would make DW mandatory for every stamina class since it would be the only way to constantly get brutality. Bad idea. Do not make changes that change from one must-have to another.

And another one:

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Unless blade cloak was substantially improved, even with brutality added, it still wouldn't be used.

The reason rally / momentum is so good is that it is a stamina heal that does not require a high PvP rank that is both a hot and a burst heal... and it also provide a weapon buff!

Blade cloak is a poor pbaoe dot, with some aoe mitigation (why this was ever considered a good idea eludes me - don't stand in the red!). If you add a weapon buff to it then you end up with one reason to take it... the buff.

It would be a helluva lot better if the aoe mitigation was dropped in favour of a more general protection buff (8%) and the dot was scaled up. Then adding brutality and it becomes a choice rather than a no-brainer in favour of momentum.

One other thing whilst we're on the subject of dw, please fix bleeds so they actually tick on everything and add them to the list of triggers for ruffian (the dw passive that increase damage vs impaired targets).

World not revolving around PvE. Blade Cloak is an impenetrable armor against zergs. Leave this skill as it is, it is a perfect and very valued addition to my arsenal. It is one of the few skills that was designed with PvP in view and without any influence on PvE.

P3ZZL3 · July 2015

Blade Cloak taking you out of stealth.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · July 2015

How about, instead of trying to stomp on a move that will make PVE dps a little more interesting for the sake of your precious PVP, you just pop a weapon damage potion for major brutality in stealth and gtf over it. Or stick to using rally.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · July 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Unless blade cloak was substantially improved, even with brutality added, it still wouldn't be used.

The reason rally / momentum is so good is that it is a stamina heal that does not require a high PvP rank that is both a hot and a burst heal... and it also provide a weapon buff!

Blade cloak is a poor pbaoe dot, with some aoe mitigation (why this was ever considered a good idea eludes me - don't stand in the red!). If you add a weapon buff to it then you end up with one reason to take it... the buff.

It would be a helluva lot better if the aoe mitigation was dropped in favour of a more general protection buff (8%) and the dot was scaled up. Then adding brutality and it becomes a choice rather than a no-brainer in favour of momentum.

One other thing whilst we're on the subject of dw, please fix bleeds so they actually tick on everything and add them to the list of triggers for ruffian (the dw passive that increase damage vs impaired targets).

As a PVE skill it's actually quite fantastic - if you go with the deadly cloak you get 1: a relatively obscene damage per cast ratio (like 10k damage on an instant cast ability compared to 4.5k damage from a standard instant cast ST ability) and an obscenely efficient stamina/damage ratio with the two casts totaling ~ 15k tooltip damage for about 20% more cost than a single cast of say... surprise attack.

Leandor · July 2015

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about, instead of trying to stomp on a move that will make PVE dps a little more interesting for the sake of your precious PVP, you just pop a weapon damage potion for major brutality in stealth and gtf over it. Or stick to using rally.

Weapon Damage pots take you out of stealth.
All abilities are usefull in PvE, stop trying to have everything only useful in PvE and taking away from us PvPers everything that actually does make sense for us
Spare me this high ground attitude of "just use 2h". That is the same as me saying "Why don't you stick to destruction staff and leave DW for us?" It is okay to reduce PvP to a single valid weapon choice (for stamina) but god beware if we limit PvE to just one less than all? And how would DW (which is the highest DPS in PvE as well in its current state) suffer from changing anything from blade cloak?

Posts like yours make me go confrontational. I really need to work on my self control.

Xantaria · July 2015

NO! Keep it with Flying Blade!

dsalter · July 2015

if anything they should make brutal on rally apply only to the 2handed weapon. lets face it 2handed NEEDED brutality. currently people only use it to buff sneak attacks, which btw is a bit of an issue as it is.

P3ZZL3 · July 2015

^^ Yup. Exactly what I've been advised to use on my Stam Temp

Sithisvoid · July 2015

Blade cloak needs reworking either way it's a horrible skill. Replace with an actual damage shield

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2015

YES!

Molag_Crow · August 2015

Good. NBs shouldn't be using 2h swords.

UltimaJoe777 · August 2015

So Hidden Blade and its morphs are going to gain a Major Brutality buff eh? Seems like alot of Dual Wield skills are going that route lol

Even without this buff though I still love Flying Blade

I just wish I could see the shuriken others do rather than a line...

GrimlyJr · April 2016

Waaaay late to the party here, but just want to throw my lot in with you. I think moving Major Brutality from Hidden Blade to Blade Cloak would be a great move, but then Hidden Blade would need some other buff - Minor/Major Fracture or a short stun perhaps?