Turn Rally into a Fighter's Guild Skill.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

Entropy is the exact opposite of Rally for Magicka user's. Yet Entropy is a Mage Guild Skill. Why is there no Weapon damage equivalent such as Rally in the fighter's guild skill line?

This would solve a lot of problem's DW/1H Sheild player's have because they don't have Rally.

Let's just make a new skill for 2H! A new 5th skill.. maybe a whirlwind? A channeled AoE where you swing your sword 360?

We could give 2H an AoE and solve other weapon class'es problem's at the same time!

Steel_Brightblade · July 2015

Lol talk about dog with a bone, your last suggestion to take away rally from 2 hander didn't meet your expected responses so you say the same thing in a different way here.

Lynx7386 · July 2015

I would not be entirely opposed to this. But I also want to see twin slash's bleed effect and the bleed effect from carve work against all enemies, regardless of type or whether or not they've got a damage shield or are blocking. This would make the bleeds actually somewhat useful, and would allow blood craze to continue providing healing to the player.
Additionally, whatever new skill that fills the fifth slot for 2h should be a high damage aoe skill competitive with whirlwind/steel tornado and it should also still provide the major brutality buff when used (as flying blade/throwing dagger is getting that improvement already).
Momentum/Forward Momentum/Rally could replace the beast trap ability in the fighter's guild, which is largely useless right now, opening it up for use by bow and 1h/shield builds.

As long as we're not going to have a negative impact to 2h, I dont mind giving access to rally to all weapon types. 2h is in desperate need of AoE damage boosts anyways.

Emma_Overload · July 2015

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Lol talk about dog with a bone, your last suggestion to take away rally from 2 hander didn't meet your expected responses so you say the same thing in a different way here.

No, I saw his old thread, and this isn't the same at all. This is actually a pretty good idea, and not much different from my own suggestion a while back to move Vigor into the FG or Undaunted lines.

The fact is that all Stamina builds need to be able to heal properly, not just 2H-ers. Also, it wouldn't cost 2H users ANYTHING for Rally to be moved to FG. On the contrary, 2H would BENEFIT because it would open a slot for yet another awesome ability.

Steel_Brightblade · July 2015

Surely if you think this through though 2 handed weapons would disappear as you would end up with 2 styles doing exactly the same thing except with dual wield you can have an additional weapon so additional enchant, additional trait and additional set piece, amounts to over 800 additional stamina any number of set perks as well as whatever additional enchant you choose.

Panth141 · July 2015

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I would not be entirely opposed to this. But I also want to see twin slash's bleed effect and the bleed effect from carve work against all enemies, regardless of type or whether or not they've got a damage shield or are blocking. This would make the bleeds actually somewhat useful, and would allow blood craze to continue providing healing to the player.
Additionally, whatever new skill that fills the fifth slot for 2h should be a high damage aoe skill competitive with whirlwind/steel tornado and it should also still provide the major brutality buff when used (as flying blade/throwing dagger is getting that improvement already).
Momentum/Forward Momentum/Rally could replace the beast trap ability in the fighter's guild, which is largely useless right now, opening it up for use by bow and 1h/shield builds.

As long as we're not going to have a negative impact to 2h, I dont mind giving access to rally to all weapon types. 2h is in desperate need of AoE damage boosts anyways.

I've been playing with 2H trying to get a nice PvE AoE build going with it and it comes up way short compared to DW imo... the only good thing for me is to spam brawler in groups for the damage shield (I'm a bit squishy) and switch to bow for the bombard snare, reposition, rinse and repeat.

The 2H splash damage passive really doesn't seem to do an awful lot... I just want to spin around with my enormous sword (lol) and not have to snare/roll to keep enemies in front of me. In terms of PvP, I'm yet to find a useful AoE 2H setup.

Back on topic though, I would have no problem with this change - especially given the real niche uses of many of the FG skills - though I guess adding Rally in there would break the trend of all FG skills being geared towards killing undead/daedra/WW

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Lol talk about dog with a bone, your last suggestion to take away rally from 2 hander didn't meet your expected responses so you say the same thing in a different way here.

No, I saw his old thread, and this isn't the same at all. This is actually a pretty good idea, and not much different from my own suggestion a while back to move Vigor into the FG or Undaunted lines.

The fact is that all Stamina builds need to be able to heal properly, not just 2H-ers. Also, it wouldn't cost 2H users ANYTHING for Rally to be moved to FG. On the contrary, 2H would BENEFIT because it would open a slot for yet another awesome ability.

The fact is, the other thread's i have made didn't really offer a good solution. They basically were "nerf this because this dosent have it" or "buff this to compensate for this".

I wanted to start a new topic on how to offer a solution to greater all stamina build's as well as offering 2H something they have wanted as well.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

Surely if you think this through though 2 handed weapons would disappear as you would end up with 2 styles doing exactly the same thing except with dual wield you can have an additional weapon so additional enchant, additional trait and additional set piece, amounts to over 800 additional stamina any number of set perks as well as whatever additional enchant you choose.

Zos could scale up the enchant of 2h weapon's to make up for not having 2. I wouldn't be opposed to that.

Steel_Brightblade · July 2015

The set piece is important too but that point aside I disagree that the replacement skill be an aoe, my reason behind that its that duel is clearly a much better aoe weapon choice and that's good, weapons should be better at some things than others to give actual reasons to choose one over the other. Keep dual wield the king of stamina aoe, maybe give 2 hander even greater single target ability, its the differences that are important.

dsalter · July 2015

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Entropy is the exact opposite of Rally for Magicka user's. Yet Entropy is a Mage Guild Skill. Why is there no Weapon damage equivalent such as Rally in the fighter's guild skill line?

This would solve a lot of problem's DW/1H Sheild player's have because they don't have Rally.

Let's just make a new skill for 2H! A new 5th skill.. maybe a whirlwind? A channeled AoE where you swing your sword 360?

We could give 2H an AoE and solve other weapon class'es problem's at the same time!

i reckon swap the ulti generation morph of cleave for a 360 swing, give 2hand a new skill for protection, a parry mode of sorts which when activated reduced incoming damage by 20% and reduces block cost a bit but ONLY when using 2handers, wep swapping = dispels effect

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

The set piece is important too but that point aside I disagree that the replacement skill be an aoe, my reason behind that its that duel is clearly a much better aoe weapon choice and that's good, weapons should be better at some things than others to give actual reasons to choose one over the other. Keep dual wield the king of stamina aoe, maybe give 2 hander even greater single target ability, its the differences that are important.

The AoE doesn't have to copy the DW steel tornado dps. It could be used as more of a utility skill. A 360 degree spin which knock's all target's down for instance setting you up for wrecking blow.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

dsalter wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Entropy is the exact opposite of Rally for Magicka user's. Yet Entropy is a Mage Guild Skill. Why is there no Weapon damage equivalent such as Rally in the fighter's guild skill line?

This would solve a lot of problem's DW/1H Sheild player's have because they don't have Rally.

Let's just make a new skill for 2H! A new 5th skill.. maybe a whirlwind? A channeled AoE where you swing your sword 360?

We could give 2H an AoE and solve other weapon class'es problem's at the same time!

i reckon swap the ulti generation morph of cleave for a 360 swing, give 2hand a new skill for protection, a parry mode of sorts which when activated reduced incoming damage by 20% and reduces block cost a bit but ONLY when using 2handers, wep swapping = dispels effect

I don't think that's a good approach to a new skill. It sound's good don't get me wrong but your dipping to far into 1h Shield territory. You could potentially tank better with this skill and brawler since you would have more shield generation with 360 degree's.

When i think of 2 hand, i think brute strength. Knocking people off balance and hitting them with big hit's. So for me, i think the best skill would be a 360 degree spin which knock's player's off balance. So you could Critical charge, then use this new skill into a Wrecking Blow.

Let's call the skill "Sweep".

"Sweep"
-Spin your 2h in a 360 motion around you knocking all enemy's off balance for 0.5-1.5 second's.
-5-7 Meter Range.
-Low/Medium cost
-0.5-1 second channel time for animation.
-Cannot be interrupted.

Morph 1: Add a Snare
Morph 2: Add a bleed effect.

Extra Morph Example's:
-Armour Debuff
-Healing Debuff

These are just example's but this is something i wouldn't mind seeing on the battlefield.

I feel this skill would be great to counter stacked Group's. Jumping into a large crowd and setting everybody off balance possibly applying various debuff's.

Bloodgharm · July 2015

Yes! Yes! A million times yes. I understand that there need to be checks and balances/pros and cons to each weapon type and I have to say that 2h and dw don't really have distinguished roles.

1H & shield: great blocking and survivability
Bow: amazing ranged capabilities as well as a great opportunity for poisons.

DW doesn't fit well because they gave it bleeds, aoe and a ranged skill for some reason. It's a mish-mash of different roles. I think that dw should just focus on aoe and bleeds for the most part.

2H has great survivability, but you don't think that when you look at big sword or axe wielders. 2h should focus on brute strength with great damage potential with stuns and knockbacks for damage mitigation and survivability.

Rally is so out of place on 2h atm. No one weapon line should have such an OP damage buff and burst heal all rolled into one. I understand ZOS needed to buff up 2h, but they went a little far, imo. Giving that same skill to a guild skill line could allow for more diversity and possibilities in builds and I think that it would help out immensely.

xaraan · July 2015

I've always thought they should have gotten rid of Trap Beast in FG and added Vigor there and put something else in the AW skill line more central to just pvp.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

Bloodgharm wrote: »

Yes! Yes! A million times yes. I understand that there need to be checks and balances/pros and cons to each weapon type and I have to say that 2h and dw don't really have distinguished roles.

1H & shield: great blocking and survivability
Bow: amazing ranged capabilities as well as a great opportunity for poisons.

DW doesn't fit well because they gave it bleeds, aoe and a ranged skill for some reason. It's a mish-mash of different roles. I think that dw should just focus on aoe and bleeds for the most part.

2H has great survivability, but you don't think that when you look at big sword or axe wielders. 2h should focus on brute strength with great damage potential with stuns and knockbacks for damage mitigation and survivability.

Rally is so out of place on 2h atm. No one weapon line should have such an OP damage buff and burst heal all rolled into one. I understand ZOS needed to buff up 2h, but they went a little far, imo. Giving that same skill to a guild skill line could allow for more diversity and possibilities in builds and I think that it would help out immensely.

I agree 100%.

Just the ability to have a 33 second HoT is godly. Anyone in stealth will eventaully heal up.

As someome who has attempted to use Dw/Dw Dw/Bow. You have no sustain what so ever. It dosent help im a vampire with aweful hp regen either. After one fight im sitting around marking target's for my allie's so i can eventually heal.

Zos should not lower Vigor to assault level 5. Leave it at 10 so people have a goal to achieve. I've got around 3.5 million AP total sonce console release. Half way to unlocking Vigor. i wanted to earn it.

If they changed rally to a fighter's guild skill, Vigor could stay where it is.

Lynx7386 · July 2015

I think they initially wanted dual wield to be more sustained damage, while two handed is designed to be bursty. A dual wield build gets a lot of little hits in really quickly, while a two handed build relies on slow, intermittent, but extremely high damage hits... Then they went and screwed it all up by throwing in aoe and ranged abilities that really dont fit the dual wield skill line.

Ideally, every weapon skill line should have at least one single target damage ability and one aoe damage ability, but the rest of the tree should focus on what that weapon is supposed to be good at. Dual wield needs to get in faster, more consistent hits. Two handed is fairly good on single target burst, but needs AoE burst added. 1h/shield needs a better AoE and a better single target damage option for soloing, and the defensive abilities need to be updated to reflect rebalancing done on other skill lines (everything in the 1h/shield tree is out of whack cost-wise right now). Bow is fairly decent, but doesnt have anything that really stands out.

Bloodgharm · July 2015

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I think they initially wanted dual wield to be more sustained damage, while two handed is designed to be bursty. A dual wield build gets a lot of little hits in really quickly, while a two handed build relies on slow, intermittent, but extremely high damage hits... Then they went and screwed it all up by throwing in aoe and ranged abilities that really dont fit the dual wield skill line.

Ideally, every weapon skill line should have at least one single target damage ability and one aoe damage ability, but the rest of the tree should focus on what that weapon is supposed to be good at. Dual wield needs to get in faster, more consistent hits. Two handed is fairly good on single target burst, but needs AoE burst added. 1h/shield needs a better AoE and a better single target damage option for soloing, and the defensive abilities need to be updated to reflect rebalancing done on other skill lines (everything in the 1h/shield tree is out of whack cost-wise right now). Bow is fairly decent, but doesnt have anything that really stands out.

I'd like to amend my previous statement to reflect this. In no way do I believe that each weapon skill line should only contain single target/aoe/survivability/sustained dots. They all still need to have at least some potential in each of these areas, however that's not to say each can't have a clear advantage over the others.

DW fits as a whirling dervish type of style--inflicting cuts and [relatively] slowly killing your enemies with bleed damage. It still needs to be able to survive during that time it takes to whittle your foe's health down, though. I think that more abilities granting evasion or dodge chance are needed. I like blade cloak, but it's much too situational and doesn't mitigate enough damage considering it only works on aoe. Imo, it should have a morph that provides the 20% aoe immunity as well as a minor evasion buff.

2H is supposed to be the powerhouse, dealing massive damage and knocking everything back with deft swings, but that's not to say you couldn't swing your blade in a wide arc, taking down all in your path. It would still need another form of survivability due to boss knockback/stun immunity. It just seems that with rally, you can get almost more survivability with 2h than with 1h & shield. I agree that it needs a better aoe skill, but its sustain puts everything else to shame. I hate using a giant broadsword on my nb, but I need it if I'm going to stay alive fighting bosses and such solo.

Bow and 1h & shield are pretty on par, though sword and board could use a little love.

Lynx7386 · July 2015

I think part of the problem with dual wield is the wide use of weapon types. When you think of dual wield, you almost immediately think of dual daggers, and daggers are not a weapon that lend well to an AoE slashing combat style - they're designed for quick jabs and stabs, not cutting. At the same time, when you think of two handed, you imagine a big cleaver-like greatsword cutting a swathing path through hordes of enemies. At least, these are the pictures that come to mind for me.

This is why some of the passives and abilities have never really made sense to me. For example, my two handed line has the passive "Forceful" which causes my light and heavy attacks to deal 25% of their damage to up to 2 additional enemies within melee range. I'm swinging a massive greatsword, why am I only hitting two random enemies out of the horde in front of me? Why are those additional enemies only taking 25% damage? Why does it only apply to my light and heavy attacks, and not to my two handed weapon abilities? These are all things that seem to be kind of half-assed by the developers, rather than having everyone on the team sit down and decide what each weapon should be focused on.

You have a similar situation with cleave and twin slashes. I think their intent behind the bleed portion of these abilities was "well, you're giving the enemy a big gashing cut, so they're gonna bleed out". On paper, that looks fine, but when you put it into practice the abilities just do not work. There are a lot of enemies in the game immune to bleed effects - most notably constructs and undead. Additionally, bleed effects do not apply to targets that are blocking or protected by a damage shield. So, we go from these abilities that are supposed to feel like powerful cleaving/gashing attacks to... weak attacks with an ineffective damage over time slapped on.

This has always been the story with ESO, even back in beta. The developers do things that dont really make any sense, and then proceed to ignore feedback from the players on those abilities because they think everything they crap out into the live version is pure gold.

dsalter · July 2015

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Entropy is the exact opposite of Rally for Magicka user's. Yet Entropy is a Mage Guild Skill. Why is there no Weapon damage equivalent such as Rally in the fighter's guild skill line?

This would solve a lot of problem's DW/1H Sheild player's have because they don't have Rally.

Let's just make a new skill for 2H! A new 5th skill.. maybe a whirlwind? A channeled AoE where you swing your sword 360?

We could give 2H an AoE and solve other weapon class'es problem's at the same time!

i reckon swap the ulti generation morph of cleave for a 360 swing, give 2hand a new skill for protection, a parry mode of sorts which when activated reduced incoming damage by 20% and reduces block cost a bit but ONLY when using 2handers, wep swapping = dispels effect

I don't think that's a good approach to a new skill. It sound's good don't get me wrong but your dipping to far into 1h Shield territory. You could potentially tank better with this skill and brawler since you would have more shield generation with 360 degree's.

When i think of 2 hand, i think brute strength. Knocking people off balance and hitting them with big hit's. So for me, i think the best skill would be a 360 degree spin which knock's player's off balance. So you could Critical charge, then use this new skill into a Wrecking Blow.

Let's call the skill "Sweep".

"Sweep"
-Spin your 2h in a 360 motion around you knocking all enemy's off balance for 0.5-1.5 second's.
-5-7 Meter Range.
-Low/Medium cost
-0.5-1 second channel time for animation.
-Cannot be interrupted.

Morph 1: Add a Snare
Morph 2: Add a bleed effect.

Extra Morph Example's:
-Armour Debuff
-Healing Debuff

These are just example's but this is something i wouldn't mind seeing on the battlefield.

I feel this skill would be great to counter stacked Group's. Jumping into a large crowd and setting everybody off balance possibly applying various debuff's.

i did say only the other morph tho, the one that generates ultimate. give more incentive to take it then due to the 360, and whats wtong with alittle extra defensiveness in a skill like? it being able to help tankers would be a blessing from akatosh since we need more tank builds floating around

Lynx7386 · July 2015

Another interesting option would be an aoe with a similar damage increase to wrecking blow, but applied per use.

For example:

Activate the ability and you spin in a circle damaging all nearby enemies for 100% weapon damage.
Each successive time you activate the ability, the damage is increased by 20%, stacking up to 5 times.

So:
Activation 1: 100% damage
Activation 2: 120% damage
Activation 3: 140% damage
Activation 4: 160% damage
Activation 5: 180% damage
Activation 6: 200% damage
Activation 7+: 200% damage

This gives you the idea that you're building up momentum as you swing this big weapon around, and it just gets more and more energy behind it, almost ramping up like an execute.

In dragon age: inquisition, the whirlwind ability for 2handed warriors works similarly, with each successive spin dealing more damage.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

I don't want to see another AoE spammed like Steel Tornado. Which is why i went the CC route. I also don't think in Pvp you could spin that often without needed to self heal. In Pve it work's.

Lynx7386 · July 2015

Not every ability has to be equally useful in both aspects of the game =P Just a suggestion.

Another skill I liked from DA:I was block and counter. You'd hold the button to raise your 2hander in a defensive position, and the next enemy that hit you would have the attack blocked and you'd retaliate with a high damage knockdown attack. Something similar could be done as a toggled ability here: toggle it on, it drains stamina each second while it's active, and the next time you get hit the ability is toggled off and you do the retaliatory strike for no cost.

Another option would be an "Overpower" type skill, that works through blocking (to help deal with some of the blocking spam we see in pvp). A heavy overhead attack that smashes down into the target, breaking past their defenses and knocking them down. Could ignore blocking, gain armor penetration, and deal additional damage to damage shields.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

I would'nt mind the counter ability you mentioned. However i dont want it to be a toggle. A skill that can be clicked and for 2 second's counter's abilitys would work better, aswell add more skill when used. The counter would have to be a knockback and not deal to much dps to setup for burst. If it was a toggle you could go pure stamina and never get hit.

The overpower would be to much. Critical charge to overpower then wrecking blow would be way to OP.

Good suggestion's but keep in mind you cant give 1 weapon class everything. The 5th skill would have to be utility with no damage. Also it should be AoE since 2H has plenty of 1v1 ability's.

MaxwellC · July 2015

People act like the 2H rally ability is such a game changer when it really isn't. The heal bursts its self is so easy to combat unless you're severely under-leveled. It's not like the shield stacking where you have to fight off one layer before damaging them.
There are other game mechanics/skills that need to be addressed in-comparison to Rally.

MaxwellC · July 2015

accidentally quoted myself lol..

Bloodgharm · July 2015

Why does the 5th ability need to be a utility? Bow and dw don't have a strictly utilitarian skill and the defensive posture skill in 1h & shield can be used to deal damage by reflecting. I just don't know why out of all the stamina based weapon skill lines, they decided to give 2h the burst-healing, damage-buffing utility skill. It just doesn't seem to fit well. I feel like 1h & shield could've used rally more, considering that your dps output is lower with s&b.

Steel_Brightblade · July 2015

Also don't forget with rally duel wield would become the most health sustainable set up as they would not only have a damage boost and heal in rally but also a damage attack and heal from blood craze. The problem with moving out changing any skills is the unchosen effects it will have on other classes and set ups. Personally I hope it all gets left alone as there are far more game breaking issues that need to be looked at first.

FrostGolem · July 2015

agree

Shunravi · July 2015

Actually, why doesnt fighters guild have a self heal? That would have been great for stamina builds and prevented the vigor drama.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

Shunravi wrote: »

Actually, why doesnt fighters guild have a self heal? That would have been great for stamina builds and prevented the vigor drama.

Exactly why i've suggested Rally to become one. Rally is a great stamina heal for any stamina build.

If Rally was a FG skill, you may see the other Morph be Taken. As a DW Nb, Talon's from DK are very annoying. If i use Blood Craze and Vigor with Momentum. I may take Forward Momentum instead of the burst heal.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2015

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

People act like the 2H rally ability is such a game changer when it really isn't. The heal bursts its self is so easy to combat unless you're severely under-leveled. It's not like the shield stacking where you have to fight off one layer before damaging them.
There are other game mechanics/skills that need to be addressed in-comparison to Rally.

Run DW/Bow in Pvp. Watch as you end up standing around waiting for your Hp to regen when the 2h guy spam's rally and get's right back in the action.

It's true Vigor will help DW/Bow DW/DW build's a lot. However i would rather have Rally for all stamina build's then give everyone access to Vigor at Assault level 5. There will literally be no point being a healer after IC patch.