"Zerg vs zerg PvP sucks"
AngelofAwe
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I've read complaints time and time again on these forums about how "PvP sucks" and "It's all zerging" and "The one with the largest zerg always wins" or "The side with the largest veteran group wins".
In response to these threads I've told people to stop mindlessly zerging and stop to think, use strategy and tactical advantages the game design allows and group up with a smaller amount of organized people, preferably with voice chat.
This will be a little bit of self-promotion here but it's not intended as such. I'm part of the PvP guild Crime Syndicate that plays on the EU server and in the Chrysamere campaign in Aldmeri dominion.
We PvP more or less every night with a couple of events every week and are truly able to change the battlefield despite our lower numbers.
Out of the 3 AD emperors in Chrysamere, all 3 have been Crime Syndicate.
Here are just 3 short clips I've saved of "more epic" moments from our PvP events that should show the people mentioned in the beginning how to actually make an impact without zerging in practice.
The groups we have in these videos are not veteran rank groups. about half of the players are veteran ranks and only 1-2 are VR10.
Video 1: The oil trap.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=UDTfAOf6yzs
Organized and competent players know of this strategy and WILL use it against you. Zerging pugs keep experiencing the same thing over and over the hard way.
50 people outside, 23 inside.
Video 2: Never surrender.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CYeMuupxfZU
Use any means necessary and take everybody you can with you, even if the situation is hopeless.
Video 3: Ambush and organization.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DO6POyNmRNw
This is from last night's event. Our group of 20 (17 present) encounter a ... rather large red zerg and take them on.
Sorry about the freezes, so many of them showed up all of a sudden that my game just froze.
Edited by AngelofAwe on April 21, 2014 9:53AM In response to these threads I've told people to stop mindlessly zerging and stop to think, use strategy and tactical advantages the game design allows and group up with a smaller amount of organized people, preferably with voice chat.
This will be a little bit of self-promotion here but it's not intended as such. I'm part of the PvP guild Crime Syndicate that plays on the EU server and in the Chrysamere campaign in Aldmeri dominion.
We PvP more or less every night with a couple of events every week and are truly able to change the battlefield despite our lower numbers.
Out of the 3 AD emperors in Chrysamere, all 3 have been Crime Syndicate.
Here are just 3 short clips I've saved of "more epic" moments from our PvP events that should show the people mentioned in the beginning how to actually make an impact without zerging in practice.
The groups we have in these videos are not veteran rank groups. about half of the players are veteran ranks and only 1-2 are VR10.
Video 1: The oil trap.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=UDTfAOf6yzsOrganized and competent players know of this strategy and WILL use it against you. Zerging pugs keep experiencing the same thing over and over the hard way.
50 people outside, 23 inside.
Video 2: Never surrender.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CYeMuupxfZUUse any means necessary and take everybody you can with you, even if the situation is hopeless.
Video 3: Ambush and organization.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DO6POyNmRNwThis is from last night's event. Our group of 20 (17 present) encounter a ... rather large red zerg and take them on.
Sorry about the freezes, so many of them showed up all of a sudden that my game just froze.
Angel of Awe (Aldmeri Dominion EU)
Imperial DK - VR10
Aldmeri Trinity/ Crime Syndicate
Sanguine's beta tester
Warrior of the Chrysamere campaign
Imperial DK - VR10
Aldmeri Trinity/ Crime Syndicate
Sanguine's beta tester
Warrior of the Chrysamere campaign
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ElSlayer✭✭✭I don't see any videos.
Oh... you've added links after edit. Now that makes sense ^^Edited by ElSlayer on April 21, 2014 9:44AM0 -
AngelofAwe✭✭✭Videos now added directly to the topic.
Angel of Awe (Aldmeri Dominion EU)
Imperial DK - VR10
Aldmeri Trinity/ Crime Syndicate
Sanguine's beta tester
Warrior of the Chrysamere campaign0 -
danteafk✭✭Well, so? And? We do the same blob busting *** and the game is still Zerg vs Zerg.
Killing 100 with just 24 people? It`s still Zerg.2 -
Izatar✭✭✭It is not still zerg except you follow the zerg.
The zerg is disastrously stupid. I guest on Auriel's Bow and every time I am blown away at the pure ignorance of the zergs there. Time after time, zerg a castle's walls, wipe, meet then enemy at your own walls and wipe them, then,repeat the sequence. I really don't get it, doing the same failed thing over and over all night long?
Small organized groups can easily destroy zergs in this game. It is scary how easy, it is disturbing to see into the abyss of humanity's weaknesses.
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lao✭✭✭✭Well, so? And? We do the same blob busting *** and the game is still Zerg vs Zerg.
Killing 100 with just 24 people? It`s still Zerg.
this.
u could do the exact same thing in warhammer. 24vs100+ no problem, if ur competent ur gonna win most of the time but its still zzZzZ. its not killing 4-5 times ur own numbers that makes it fun. if ur own performance makes an impact equal to 4% of the teams success (mathematically spoken) its just boring.
its 1000 times more intense and fun if u win 5vs25 than 25vs100. ur own performance matters much more when ur only 5 and every mistake counts alot more.
for example if u run 24 ppl and 4 screw up and die it doesnt rly make u that much weaker.
if 1 guy out of the 5 dies ur team is already 20% weaker (again mathematically spoken, if the guy who died is ur healer ur much more than 20% weaker)
u also need much better teamplay and coordination in the 5 man group than in the 24 man group. might sound paradox to some less experienced pvpers but its true.
bottom line: in order to make pvp fun ur own performance has to make a noticable difference. that means if one guy of ur set 5 man group cant play a night and u have to pug a replacement u should feel a massive difference in the entire performance.
in DAoC there have been times when one guy in our set group wouldnt be able to play one night. the whole group wouldnt play that night cos ppl cba to get a replacement cos everyone knew it would just suck. when stuff like that happens and one guy out of 8 makes such a huge difference that the other 7 refuse to play without him u know pvp is in the right place.
this might sound weird for some ppl but think about it. if one different person in the group has such a huge impact on the groups performance (doesnt even matter who it is) then the skill ceiling is pretty damn high and u have to work a long time to get ur teamplay right which means everyone in the group knows exactly how the other guys play and what they do in which situation.
perfect communication is mandatory in small groups while in a 24 man zerg its more like an ant queen commanding worker ants. (who wants to be a worker ant rly?)
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fyendiarb16_ESO✭✭✭(who wants to be a worker ant rly?)
Hehe, people like me that want to enjoy pvp at low lvl. I love to roam around in the pve world most, but have my build set up for healing and survival even at lvl 16 now. Big groups is where people like me belong. We are not strong enough to join the small well organized teams or able to gank newbies (duh!) so healing and trying to save as many as I can in big zergs and using the numbers to create a wall between the enemy and me... yup, I want to be a worker for the time being.
Maybe in a couple of months I get strong enough for specialized work, but for now being a worker bee in a zerg is where my fun is found when I pvp.
For now I am not afraid to admit that in pvp I fear every single enemy I encounter, the most scary are the rides back to the zerg after getting killed. Some of us love zergs, need zergs and some of us, myself included respect and fear the more experienced players (unless they are on my side, then I stick to them like a bee on honey!)
Btw nice tactics in those vids.0 -
RaZaddha✭✭✭Well, so? And? We do the same blob busting *** and the game is still Zerg vs Zerg.
Killing 100 with just 24 people? It`s still Zerg.
perfect communication is mandatory in small groups while in a 24 man zerg its more like an ant queen commanding worker ants. (who wants to be a worker ant rly?)
Thats just your personal opinion, there's both sides to this and none is "the right one", you calling people in big groups worker ants is rather... Ofensive, the point of the OP is that large scale pvp can be fun, rewarding and more strategic than the current "tug of war" pugs keep doing.1 -
lao✭✭✭✭Well, so? And? We do the same blob busting *** and the game is still Zerg vs Zerg.
Killing 100 with just 24 people? It`s still Zerg.
perfect communication is mandatory in small groups while in a 24 man zerg its more like an ant queen commanding worker ants. (who wants to be a worker ant rly?)
Thats just your personal opinion, there's both sides to this and none is "the right one", you calling people in big groups worker ants is rather... Ofensive, the point of the OP is that large scale pvp can be fun, rewarding and more strategic than the current "tug of war" pugs keep doing.
yea you like it now and nothing wrong with that. to each his own afterall. however im experienced enough to know that the vast majority will get bored of it in max 2 months. thats why modern mmos lose 75% of their population within the first 2 months. in order to bind ppl longer to a game u need to make it much more challenging than current mmos are.
best example for this would be DAoC. that game wouldnt have survived 13 years if it wasnt for the highly competitive 8v8 scene. the majority of the zergers didnt even make it past year 2. why? cos zerging is boring and not challenging at all. u might not agree with that now cos the game is still new but u will agree with it in a couple of months, trust me.0 -
Zintair✭✭✭✭Agree 100% OP. The zerg is NOT the most effective strategy and they CAN be stopped by fewer more organized defenders at Keeps.
Working on videos from the past two weekends as well.0 -
Humanistic✭✭✭✭I have seen many battles in PvP both in the long term test, and in the live game.
I can tell you with absolute certainty, that zerging doesn't always work - and in most cases, it doesn't work at all.
A particular guild I was in had about a 150-player zerg running across the map, taking keeps, resources, etc. After taking a wall down at a keep, we were stopped dead in our tracks by about 12-15 extremely well-coordinated players of the opposite team. They killed all of us, every single person, none of us survived. At that point, I felt so incredibly foolish that I left that guild to join another. The primary reason was because the guild leader was big on 'zerging' and 'numbers'.
It doesn't matter if you have 1,000 players in your zerg, if none of them know how to pvp, you're going to get facerolled.
That being said, I can't tell you how many times I've seen a small strike team with an Emperor leading that has just killed everyone in their way, even though they were outnumbered.0 -
RaZaddha✭✭✭Well, so? And? We do the same blob busting *** and the game is still Zerg vs Zerg.
Killing 100 with just 24 people? It`s still Zerg.
perfect communication is mandatory in small groups while in a 24 man zerg its more like an ant queen commanding worker ants. (who wants to be a worker ant rly?)
Thats just your personal opinion, there's both sides to this and none is "the right one", you calling people in big groups worker ants is rather... Ofensive, the point of the OP is that large scale pvp can be fun, rewarding and more strategic than the current "tug of war" pugs keep doing.
yea you like it now and nothing wrong with that. to each his own afterall. however im experienced enough to know that the vast majority will get bored of it in max 2 months. thats why modern mmos lose 75% of their population within the first 2 months. in order to bind ppl longer to a game u need to make it much more challenging than current mmos are.
best example for this would be DAoC. that game wouldnt have survived 13 years if it wasnt for the highly competitive 8v8 scene. the majority of the zergers didnt even make it past year 2. why? cos zerging is boring and not challenging at all. u might not agree with that now cos the game is still new but u will agree with it in a couple of months, trust me.
You have no way of proving you first pharagraph, it's all personal preference.
DAoC survives because it had no real competition for such a long time, even then it's population is very small.
My point was that this isn't a small scale vs large scale thread, but a thread showing how zerging is way more effective if you put coordination into it.0 -
beravinprb19_ESO✭✭✭People zerg because ESO PvP is based on taking objectives, and those objectives are often defended by large amounts of players and NPCs. You don't see small groups taking down keeps, because they cant. Like it or not, if you plan on attacking a keep, then you need the numbers behind you to make it happen. Thus, people complain as the only way to take down these major objectives is to have enough players behind you to do so.Edited by beravinprb19_ESO on April 22, 2014 9:11PM0
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lao✭✭✭✭Well, so? And? We do the same blob busting *** and the game is still Zerg vs Zerg.
Killing 100 with just 24 people? It`s still Zerg.
perfect communication is mandatory in small groups while in a 24 man zerg its more like an ant queen commanding worker ants. (who wants to be a worker ant rly?)
Thats just your personal opinion, there's both sides to this and none is "the right one", you calling people in big groups worker ants is rather... Ofensive, the point of the OP is that large scale pvp can be fun, rewarding and more strategic than the current "tug of war" pugs keep doing.
yea you like it now and nothing wrong with that. to each his own afterall. however im experienced enough to know that the vast majority will get bored of it in max 2 months. thats why modern mmos lose 75% of their population within the first 2 months. in order to bind ppl longer to a game u need to make it much more challenging than current mmos are.
best example for this would be DAoC. that game wouldnt have survived 13 years if it wasnt for the highly competitive 8v8 scene. the majority of the zergers didnt even make it past year 2. why? cos zerging is boring and not challenging at all. u might not agree with that now cos the game is still new but u will agree with it in a couple of months, trust me.
You have no way of proving you first pharagraph, it's all personal preference.
DAoC survives because it had no real competition for such a long time, even then it's population is very small.
My point was that this isn't a small scale vs large scale thread, but a thread showing how zerging is way more effective if you put coordination into it.
regarding the first paragraph. just remember that paragraph when it has actually happened in about 2 months from now. nothing else to say rly.
and DAoC survived every single mmo that was released during the last 13 years which mind you, were quite alot so ur statement makes 0 sense. the reason it survived was simply cos it had the most competitive scene ever to be seen in an mmo. that scene also only existed cos the game had an extremely high skill ceiling for beeing an mmo.0 -
snuspresten✭✭✭Ok so well done for making up these strategies. It still doesn't take away from the fact that in my eyes this is not a real PvP engagement. Throwing oil on the floor is fun to you? I don't see the appeal.
I want to use all my toolkits in a battle vs other players who know their characters. Not getting killed by some goofy tactic. I can see how some enjoy this experience as it is shared with many people, but I'd rather have close quarter pvp. It is still zerg fest with larger scale strategies which is not not at all my cup of tea.
I don't see why so many people are fighting this. What are you so afraid of? That people will stop attending cyrodiil? Frankly I'm not playing this game any more until there is some changes made because right now the end game is non-existent and it is a huge grind to nothing. The PVP is great on large scales if you got a structured group, but lets be real... the consoles have no communication tools and you need a machine nearby with TS/Mumble etc to make it work. It is a sad affair, but it is the truth. It is all just very tedious... this does apply to most console games. Very few prefer to team up or communicate to make things playable.Edited by snuspresten on July 19, 2015 8:11AM0 -
Sypher✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭snuspresten wrote: »Ok so well done for making up these strategies. It still doesn't take away from the fact that in my eyes this is not a real PvP engagement. Throwing oil on the floor is fun to you? I don't see the appeal.
I want to use all my toolkits in a battle vs other players who know their characters. Not getting killed by some goofy tactic. I can see how some enjoy this experience as it is shared with many people, but I'd rather have close quarter pvp. It is still zerg fest with larger scale strategies which is not not at all my cup of tea.
I don't see why so many people are fighting this. What are you so afraid of? That people will stop attending cyrodiil? Frankly I'm not playing this game any more until there is some changes made because right now the end game is non-existent and it is a huge grind to nothing. The PVP is great on large scales if you got a structured group, but lets be real... the consoles have no communication tools and you need a machine nearby with TS/Mumble etc to make it work. It is a sad affair, but it is the truth.
This is over a year old.
DC Dragonknight 'Sypher - AD Nightblade Sypher Ali - AD Sorcerer Sypher Sensei - EP Sorcerer Sypharian - DC Templar Ali Sypher
Youtube: www.youtube.com/SypherPK
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/SypherPK1 -
snuspresten✭✭✭snuspresten wrote: »Ok so well done for making up these strategies. It still doesn't take away from the fact that in my eyes this is not a real PvP engagement. Throwing oil on the floor is fun to you? I don't see the appeal.
I want to use all my toolkits in a battle vs other players who know their characters. Not getting killed by some goofy tactic. I can see how some enjoy this experience as it is shared with many people, but I'd rather have close quarter pvp. It is still zerg fest with larger scale strategies which is not not at all my cup of tea.
I don't see why so many people are fighting this. What are you so afraid of? That people will stop attending cyrodiil? Frankly I'm not playing this game any more until there is some changes made because right now the end game is non-existent and it is a huge grind to nothing. The PVP is great on large scales if you got a structured group, but lets be real... the consoles have no communication tools and you need a machine nearby with TS/Mumble etc to make it work. It is a sad affair, but it is the truth.
This is over a year old.
I'm an ass. I apologise I didn't even see the date haha!! Plus the PS4 experience is probably nothing like what it is on the pc version. Derp didn't mean to bump a year old post.... Edited by snuspresten on July 19, 2015 10:11AM0 -
themdogesbite✭✭✭✭✭
✭ah wtf Deaths Proxys in there, *** would always go "afk" after we defended a keep.. Now we all know why
:]0 -
Dalglish✭✭✭Haha think he was one of the first guys to lead the pugs out to resources, Angel used to get so much abuse too.Victrix EU - EP & AD -
Xbox EU - DalglishUK0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The OP was my guild mate from beta, back in Feb '14. The lighting improvement update (aka the FPS bug update, or 1.2) got the better of him and he quit never to come back again.
This necro hits right in the feels. He was a great player too
EU | PC | AD0 -
Phoenix99✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Lol
Nostalgia post necro.
I miss ground oils.
Ground oils, best oils, but now even them would have problems with the current VR14s blobs...0 -
revonine✭✭✭✭That ping pong between two keeps taking turns mindless wiping got so bad last night between DC (my faction) and EP that no-one noticed AD take two keeps open the gates and steal an elder scroll right from under us. At that point I was so ashamed of my faction I left Cyrodill for the night 0 -
drzycki_ESO✭✭✭Well, so? And? We do the same blob busting *** and the game is still Zerg vs Zerg.
Killing 100 with just 24 people? It`s still Zerg.
perfect communication is mandatory in small groups while in a 24 man zerg its more like an ant queen commanding worker ants. (who wants to be a worker ant rly?)
Thats just your personal opinion, there's both sides to this and none is "the right one", you calling people in big groups worker ants is rather... Ofensive, the point of the OP is that large scale pvp can be fun, rewarding and more strategic than the current "tug of war" pugs keep doing.
This is a war and we are supposed to kill each other in any manner we find enjoyable. Obviously, lots of us prefer the zerg play style. The bigger, the better in my opinion. Long live the zerg!
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