mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

I honestly STILL think shields should stay the same but ONLY last 5-10 secs. maybe just 5 secs, If someone is just spaming it I honestly FIND IT okay, but if they allow it to only last 5 secs they cant spam and then attack leaving openings,

This would actually not change anything. Come 1.7 the 1-shot combo wont exist and as soon as you land an opener on a sorc with no shields up his healing ward will hit for max shielding followed by hardened ward and you'll be in the same boat.

Meanwhile in PvE sorcs would be made even more useless.

You ever compare Steel Tornado to Impulse lately? It's just LOL. Can't believe I ever tried grinding on my sorc....

Don't. Don't even go there.

LOL. Why? Sore subject or something?

Ariak wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

I honestly STILL think shields should stay the same but ONLY last 5-10 secs. maybe just 5 secs, If someone is just spaming it I honestly FIND IT okay, but if they allow it to only last 5 secs they cant spam and then attack leaving openings,

This is short sighted Arax. These are/were mechanics that allow defense with some offense from a pvp perspective ...... think cloak and whatever skill, block casting, shields, and in some cases apparently there are persons that can attack while dodge rolling.

Do you care about balance? A little off topic but im questioning your intentions here: it would appear that your magicka NB is going to be sitting pretty after this patch. You and I had a 10 minute duel a couple of months ago where you engaged me in whispers after. You said you would be good with more sorc damage but less tankiness. The funny part of it is, I had maybe 3-4 opportunities to take the offensive between the flurry of fear/cloak/stuns etc.

Play some other classes and then maybe start talking about what game balance needs. This would be similar to Ezareth trying to give NBs advice 6 months ago. Cmon ...

.-. then the issue might just be sorcs wanting to tank all day, if the whole going on offense thing is true.

I have commented on a bunch of threads how cloak is gonna be really OP next patch, I do care alot about balance (which next patch magicka NB is gonna be powerful if they dont change something) but my magicka NB is already sitting pretty damn well this is a overall buff. But yeah overall I think sorcs have insane shield stacking, I persoanlly wanted sorcs to keep bolt escape and have less powerful shields. but they are nerfing bolt escape anyway so I ~guess~ that works.

you know one thing that could fix alot of these problems? bashing heavy attacks

out of all classes magicka sorc is pretty much good at moblity, defense and damage. Where other classes are good 2 outta 3.

Tankqull wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

sorry but the best shields are anulment and healing ward and both are available to everybody.
but i do agree lets wait for the PTS atleast to gather some first hand experience especially in regards of other changes (to abilities) that are applied.

Stamina: amount of possible dodge rolls is higher
Magicka: amount of possible Shield casts is higher

But the strength of roll stays the same, while shields are based on your magicka.
Both available for everybody, but the shields you named are only useful for Magicka builds and you're still able to roll and that as good as I do.
If you sacrifice some Magicka and invest some CP at the right spots you can achieve around 25 Dodge rolls per minute and that as Magicka build.
If I sacrifice my Stamina I could surely cast 25 shields, but it's not worth it at all.

Dodge is useful for everybody, shields are not.

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

You are way overvaluing shields. A dodge roll neutralizes all damage and secondary effects from most of the skills in the game. A templar with blazing shield who gets hit by my crystal frag will: 1) lose her shield, 2) suffer unmitigated overflow damage, 3) be stunned, 4) have to waste a significant portion of her stamina pool breaking it. A dodge rolling Templar will: completely evade the projectile for a small portion of her stamina pool.

How many magicka DKs and Templars solo roam out there relying on their shields as defense? Sypher just hops on his DK all the time now, right? A sorcerer can more reliably count on their shields somewhat because they are larger but mostly because they have the mobility to escape unplesant situations where their shields will not save them. A sorc who just stands there spamming shields will die - quickly - because they are still getting hit and CCed. A NB spamming dodge roll on the other hand will survive much longer and if there is no DK with fossilize / whip heard a bunch of pugs around and around their favorite rock or what not.

Shields are better in "zerg" situations because you are not likely to be targeted and then have a passive form of mitigation that will defend against random effects. If you are being targeted by enemies, you want to avoid the damage and secondary effects altogether and shields, even the mighty sorc shields, do not do that.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

A sorc who just stands there spamming shields will die - quickly - because they are still getting hit and CCed. A NB spamming dodge roll on the other hand will survive much longer and if there is no DK with fossilize / whip heard a bunch of pugs around and around their favorite rock or what not.

In my opinion there are no real stuns in this game, just Stamina Drains. As long as you don´t get affected by a bug you will break any stun before you get the next hit. Only exception is the WW Fear, which seems to be buggy overall.
Mostly you need around two rotations to destroy an enemy shield, this takes around two seconds. The fact that you can break a stun instantly AND spam your shields proves that you´re basically immortal as long as you don´t do anything else.
There is no counter against shield, such things doesn´t exist.
Even if you break the stun a second later you´re mostly save, at least you won´t die in the next second since you still got some of your shield and your 100% Health left. -> Healing Ward + Hardened Ward -> safe.
Also keep in mind that you got unlimited Magicka if you also use Harness. It´s buggy and even returns ressources against stamina attacks. At least there is a cap now..

Now imagine a NB spamming dodge. If he gets stunned and breaks it a second later thanks to this wonderful and bugfree game, what will happen? He don´t have some of his "dodge" left to avoid dmg or stuff like that.
It completly depends on the situation, except that you can also spec for more Stamina and also dodge like a boss.
There are plenty of counters to Dodge, the main defense of stamina builds, but why is there no counter against shields?

Of course in group fights you´d say dodge is stronger, but keep in mind that they actually nerf it with the next patch. You can´t spam dodge anymore, but that doesn´t apply to shields.
Stamina got limited Defense, can barely hold block thanks to the missing stamina reg and magicka builds will stand there, shielding like a boss.

Also as non Sorc you could use Healing Ward in addition to Blazing Shield or whatever, it heals you, gets you out of execute range and in addition to that you gain an insane shield.

Overall you can just say that the balance in this game is crap.
Dodge is strong? Sure, but it got counters.

I rather fight Stamina Builds as Stamina Build, than Magicka Builds.
If i see any Sorc porting away and shield stack i will just ignore him, ain´t nobody got time for that.

Soulac wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

A sorc who just stands there spamming shields will die - quickly - because they are still getting hit and CCed. A NB spamming dodge roll on the other hand will survive much longer and if there is no DK with fossilize / whip heard a bunch of pugs around and around their favorite rock or what not.

In my opinion there are no real stuns in this game, just Stamina Drains. As long as you don´t get affected by a bug you will break any stun before you get the next hit. Only exception is the WW Fear, which seems to be buggy overall.
Mostly you need around two rotations to destroy an enemy shield, this takes around two seconds. The fact that you can break a stun instantly AND spam your shields proves that you´re basically immortal as long as you don´t do anything else.
There is no counter against shield, such things doesn´t exist.
Even if you break the stun a second later you´re mostly save, at least you won´t die in the next second since you still got some of your shield and your 100% Health left. -> Healing Ward + Hardened Ward -> safe.
Also keep in mind that you got unlimited Magicka if you also use Harness. It´s buggy and even returns ressources against stamina attacks. At least there is a cap now..

Now imagine a NB spamming dodge. If he gets stunned and breaks it a second later thanks to this wonderful and bugfree game, what will happen? He don´t have some of his "dodge" left to avoid dmg or stuff like that.
It completly depends on the situation, except that you can also spec for more Stamina and also dodge like a boss.
There are plenty of counters to Dodge, the main defense of stamina builds, but why is there no counter against shields?

Of course in group fights you´d say dodge is stronger, but keep in mind that they actually nerf it with the next patch. You can´t spam dodge anymore, but that doesn´t apply to shields.
Stamina got limited Defense, can barely hold block thanks to the missing stamina reg and magicka builds will stand there, shielding like a boss.

Also as non Sorc you could use Healing Ward in addition to Blazing Shield or whatever, it heals you, gets you out of execute range and in addition to that you gain an insane shield.

Overall you can just say that the balance in this game is crap.
Dodge is strong? Sure, but it got counters.

I rather fight Stamina Builds as Stamina Build, than Magicka Builds.
If i see any Sorc porting away and shield stack i will just ignore him, ain´t nobody got time for that.

In openworld counter to shield is easy: another dude and 2vs1 you can easily outdps the shieldstack, while to counter rolldodge, you need special abilities slotted and those arent usually the best dps abilities. Qo if youre very lucky, you can 1vs10 agaisnt 10 players who dont have those abilities slotted, while 10 players always have enough damages to outdps shieldstack (there is no 10 Mjollga on the server )
Duels shouldnt be included in the balance imo, because the game is balanced around the open pvp, not duel.

Tankqull wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

sorry but the best shields are anulment and healing ward and both are available to everybody.
but i do agree lets wait for the PTS atleast to gather some first hand experience especially in regards of other changes (to abilities) that are applied.

Magicka NB here
WTT my annulment for your hardened ward.

Soulac wrote: »

I rather fight Stamina Builds as Stamina Build, than Magicka Builds.
If i see any Sorc porting away and shield stack i will just ignore him, ain´t nobody got time for that.

Everyone should ignore the occasional "endlessly bolting sorc." It's too bad some are too dumb to. :-P

Sorcs that don't "shield stack" when necessary are doing it wrong. Are those the ones you wouldn't ignore? lol

k2blader wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Magicka NB here
WTT my annulment for your hardened ward.

Roll a sorc.

So tired of NBs crying they don't have a sorc skill. You have other skills! -_-

I'm not crying, I'm doing perfectly fine without hardened ward. But this one is all the way much better than annulment, you cant deny it. Was just an answer to the guy saying that annulment is "the best shield" with healing ward. Healing ward is probably the best shield indeed, annulment is very good but not close to hardened ward.

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

sorry but the best shields are anulment and healing ward and both are available to everybody.
but i do agree lets wait for the PTS atleast to gather some first hand experience especially in regards of other changes (to abilities) that are applied.

Stamina: amount of possible dodge rolls is higher
Magicka: amount of possible Shield casts is higher

But the strength of roll stays the same, while shields are based on your magicka.
Both available for everybody, but the shields you named are only useful for Magicka builds and you're still able to roll and that as good as I do.
If you sacrifice some Magicka and invest some CP at the right spots you can achieve around 25 Dodge rolls per minute and that as Magicka build.
If I sacrifice my Stamina I could surely cast 25 shields, but it's not worth it at all.

Dodge is useful for everybody, shields are not.

In theory you can, but in fact, at least for magicka NB, a build with 25 dodgeroll/min isnt a viable build. I tried a medium armor setup with drinks, was cool to dodgeroll a lot but I lost ~1k dmg TT (7k less magicka because you want 20k hp with drinks and 170 spell dmg because eyes of mara instead of martial knowledge) on my concelead weapon, no spell penetration from light armor and I couldnt kill anything.
Shields have a lot of advantages over rolldodge, rolldodge has a lot of advantages too... I dont think a discussion about which one is the more OP would end.

My theorycrafted build, even as khajiit, got a Concealed Tooltip of 6.223 Dmg while still using Drinks.
That´s more than I got on my DPS Stamina Build without Whitestrake..

Unbuffed?doubt it. The setup I tried was 4 eyes of mara 4 magnus 4 healers 5m 1l 1h. With this setup drinks, atronach and 3 reduc cost I was already running oom quite fast and 5.1k tooltip unbuffed (with 4mk instead of eyes of mara and food I got 6k). You could get more sd by switching healer for cyro light+adroitness or even sd glyph but then youre oom way too fast. I dont see any other setup that could give you more sd with a decent magicka managment and enough hp (imo you need at least 20k in cyrodiil, thats why magicka is so low with drinks: 27k)
If its buffed then youre doing something wrong on your dps build :P

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Magicka NB here
WTT my annulment for your hardened ward.

Roll a sorc.

So tired of NBs crying they don't have a sorc skill. You have other skills! -_-

I'm not crying, I'm doing perfectly fine without hardened ward. But this one is all the way much better than annulment, you cant deny it. Was just an answer to the guy saying that annulment is "the best shield" with healing ward. Healing ward is probably the best shield indeed, annulment is very good but not close to hardened ward.

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

sorry but the best shields are anulment and healing ward and both are available to everybody.
but i do agree lets wait for the PTS atleast to gather some first hand experience especially in regards of other changes (to abilities) that are applied.

Stamina: amount of possible dodge rolls is higher
Magicka: amount of possible Shield casts is higher

But the strength of roll stays the same, while shields are based on your magicka.
Both available for everybody, but the shields you named are only useful for Magicka builds and you're still able to roll and that as good as I do.
If you sacrifice some Magicka and invest some CP at the right spots you can achieve around 25 Dodge rolls per minute and that as Magicka build.
If I sacrifice my Stamina I could surely cast 25 shields, but it's not worth it at all.

Dodge is useful for everybody, shields are not.

In theory you can, but in fact, at least for magicka NB, a build with 25 dodgeroll/min isnt a viable build. I tried a medium armor setup with drinks, was cool to dodgeroll a lot but I lost ~1k dmg TT (7k less magicka because you want 20k hp with drinks and 170 spell dmg because eyes of mara instead of martial knowledge) on my concelead weapon, no spell penetration from light armor and I couldnt kill anything.
Shields have a lot of advantages over rolldodge, rolldodge has a lot of advantages too... I dont think a discussion about which one is the more OP would end.

My theorycrafted build, even as khajiit, got a Concealed Tooltip of 6.223 Dmg while still using Drinks.
That´s more than I got on my DPS Stamina Build without Whitestrake..

Unbuffed?doubt it. The setup I tried was 4 eyes of mara 4 magnus 4 healers 5m 1l 1h. With this setup drinks, atronach and 3 reduc cost I was already running oom quite fast and 5.1k tooltip unbuffed (with 4mk instead of eyes of mara and food I got 6k). You could get more sd by switching healer for cyro light+adroitness or even sd glyph but then youre oom way too fast. I dont see any other setup that could give you more sd with a decent magicka managment and enough hp (imo you need at least 20k in cyrodiil, thats why magicka is so low with drinks: 27k)
If its buffed then youre doing something wrong on your dps build :P

6.3k buffed Concealed tool tip
30k Magicka as Khajiit, around 34k as Dunmer.
20k Health
2.2k Stamreg as Khajiit
2.5k Magreg

In total you get more resources per minute than my current Stamina Build gets.
Also no bufffood usage, so tooltip is ofc much lower since I need to spend points on health as well.

My surprise attack tooltip on my Stamina whitestrake build is 5.3k buffed, with skirmisher and flawless dawnbreaker instead I get to around 6.3k as well.

In order to get defense I sacrifice dmg and in my opinion 6.3k tooltip is enough since nirn gets nerfed.

Out of curiousity, what gear setup do you use to reach that? I guess you calculated with ~500cp, I dont see how you can get 20k hp 30k magicka otherwise (without emp hp bonus). Also give unbuffed tooltip and regen pls, idk which buffs you include (relentless focus,major sorcellery, invis bonus with/without khajiit passive, pots...) and I only remember my tool tips unbuffed anyway.

Edit: I dont think 6.3k buffed is enough with a magicka dw build btw. I guess its around 5.4-5.5k unbuffed which is less than what I got on my sb setup. Even agaisnt non-nirn players I have trouble to kill with sb, because harness, cp passive agaisnt magick dmg and all the crap. Also, keep in mind your light attacks hit for 600 instead of 2-3k and your bash for 400 instead of 1.5k-2k + you have no spell penetration. Basically your rotation with a stam whitestrake setup deals much more dmg than this hybrid setup, even if you dont use bash cancel.

Erondil wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Magicka NB here
WTT my annulment for your hardened ward.

Roll a sorc.

So tired of NBs crying they don't have a sorc skill. You have other skills! -_-

I'm not crying, I'm doing perfectly fine without hardened ward. But this one is all the way much better than annulment, you cant deny it. Was just an answer to the guy saying that annulment is "the best shield" with healing ward. Healing ward is probably the best shield indeed, annulment is very good but not close to hardened ward.

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

sorry but the best shields are anulment and healing ward and both are available to everybody.
but i do agree lets wait for the PTS atleast to gather some first hand experience especially in regards of other changes (to abilities) that are applied.

Stamina: amount of possible dodge rolls is higher
Magicka: amount of possible Shield casts is higher

But the strength of roll stays the same, while shields are based on your magicka.
Both available for everybody, but the shields you named are only useful for Magicka builds and you're still able to roll and that as good as I do.
If you sacrifice some Magicka and invest some CP at the right spots you can achieve around 25 Dodge rolls per minute and that as Magicka build.
If I sacrifice my Stamina I could surely cast 25 shields, but it's not worth it at all.

Dodge is useful for everybody, shields are not.

In theory you can, but in fact, at least for magicka NB, a build with 25 dodgeroll/min isnt a viable build. I tried a medium armor setup with drinks, was cool to dodgeroll a lot but I lost ~1k dmg TT (7k less magicka because you want 20k hp with drinks and 170 spell dmg because eyes of mara instead of martial knowledge) on my concelead weapon, no spell penetration from light armor and I couldnt kill anything.
Shields have a lot of advantages over rolldodge, rolldodge has a lot of advantages too... I dont think a discussion about which one is the more OP would end.

My theorycrafted build, even as khajiit, got a Concealed Tooltip of 6.223 Dmg while still using Drinks.
That´s more than I got on my DPS Stamina Build without Whitestrake..

Unbuffed?doubt it. The setup I tried was 4 eyes of mara 4 magnus 4 healers 5m 1l 1h. With this setup drinks, atronach and 3 reduc cost I was already running oom quite fast and 5.1k tooltip unbuffed (with 4mk instead of eyes of mara and food I got 6k). You could get more sd by switching healer for cyro light+adroitness or even sd glyph but then youre oom way too fast. I dont see any other setup that could give you more sd with a decent magicka managment and enough hp (imo you need at least 20k in cyrodiil, thats why magicka is so low with drinks: 27k)
If its buffed then youre doing something wrong on your dps build :P

6.3k buffed Concealed tool tip
30k Magicka as Khajiit, around 34k as Dunmer.
20k Health
2.2k Stamreg as Khajiit
2.5k Magreg

In total you get more resources per minute than my current Stamina Build gets.
Also no bufffood usage, so tooltip is ofc much lower since I need to spend points on health as well.

My surprise attack tooltip on my Stamina whitestrake build is 5.3k buffed, with skirmisher and flawless dawnbreaker instead I get to around 6.3k as well.

In order to get defense I sacrifice dmg and in my opinion 6.3k tooltip is enough since nirn gets nerfed.

Out of curiousity, what gear setup do you use to reach that? I guess you calculated with ~500cp, I dont see how you can get 20k hp 30k magicka otherwise (without emp hp bonus). Also give unbuffed tooltip and regen pls, idk which buffs you include (relentless focus,major sorcellery, invis bonus with/without khajiit passive, pots...) and I only remember my tool tips unbuffed anyway.

Edit: I dont think 6.3k buffed is enough with a magicka dw build btw. I guess its around 5.4-5.5k unbuffed which is less than what I got on my sb setup. Even agaisnt non-nirn players I have trouble to kill with sb, because harness, cp passive agaisnt magick dmg and all the crap. Also, keep in mind your light attacks hit for 600 instead of 2-3k and your bash for 400 instead of 1.5k-2k + you have no spell penetration. Basically your rotation with a stam whitestrake setup deals much more dmg than this hybrid setup, even if you dont use bash cancel.

494 CP, correct.
I got 430 right now, probably around 500 until patch lunches.

6.3k Tool Tip after Nirn nerf should be enough in my opinion.
Stamina/Magicka Reg bit less than i got in my memory.. :P

4 pc Magnus
4 pc Healer
4 pc Martial

2450 Buffed, but unstealthed/cloaked Spelldmg
2085 Stamina Reg
2417 Magicka Reg
30538 Magicka
6247 Tooltip Concealed

Keep in mind that these stats don´t include any good racials. My Racials are probably the worst ever for Magicka Builds since i ain´t got anything except 10% dmg boost, which is good for burst but overall just a DPS loss (except invis bats)

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Im seriously wondering if anyone could tell me how sorcs should survive in fights against decent players without our strong Hardened Ward (because this apparently needs to scale of my 18k health pool) and Bolt Escape (because sorcs shouldnt have a skill to flee from fights).

Im kinda confused because I tried tanking 10+ enemies with Bound Armor and Lighting Form but that didnt go so well. Ive also tried self-healing with Dark Magic skills and pets but that didnt do the trick for me.

Could someone please tell me how to make a more tanky sorc without using Hardened Ward and Bolt Escape?

You would have to make a choice, as any other non-sorc player in Cyrodiil: be a tank or be glass canon, and not both at the same time. For instance, you would not have only 18k HP and a large magicka pool, but you would have more HP and less magicka. Of course you would deal less damage.

I'm seriously wondering if you could tell me how as a stamina DK I can survive a fight against a sorc in its current form if:
- I don't regen my stam while blocking the damage of the sorc
- I have to spend more stamina to dodge the damage dealt by the sorc
- I have less spell resistance against a sorc due to the nerf of the nirnhorned trait

Just seriously tell me....

Use reflective scale, S&B reflect, fossilize, GDB, Vigor (alliance rank 5 soon), Rally etc.
You dont have to block much as a stamina DK, you dodge or reflect 95% of the spells back and counter your opponent after a successful reflect.

Still no suggestion for a usable class skill (beside Hardened Ward and Bolt Escape) to survive in PVP. With more health and less magicka I wont survive much longer if I dont have a skill I can use actively to increase my defense.

The same goes for magicka Temps btw, they increase magicka AND/OR spell damage = stronger heals and more damage. Only their damage shield doesnt scale off magicka but their heals and damage abilities do. Sorcs dont get anything defensive for increasing spell damage.

Ahzek wrote: »

@Ezareth vemon arrow acts like destructive reach in that the CC/interrupt only applies if it actually damages the enmies healthbar. So VAing a temp with blazing shield/sorc with hardened wont do anything to protecr you unless you have enough damage to break the remaining shield.

This is utter stupidity. Shields should not grant users immunity to CCs, dots, procs, and secondary effects.

Ahzek wrote: »

@Ezareth vemon arrow acts like destructive reach in that the CC/interrupt only applies if it actually damages the enmies healthbar. So VAing a temp with blazing shield/sorc with hardened wont do anything to protecr you unless you have enough damage to break the remaining shield.

@Ahzek

Are you sure about that? I swear I interrupt Templars spamming radiant on me all the time with Blazing shield up but I suppose you could be correct. I've always considered the bow the worst weapon, the only weapon skill I ever enjoyed on it was Venom Arrow.

I swear I used to be interrupted by NBs with bows all the time while channeling one ability or another and I never let my shields down.

Regardless I enjoy Sword & Board more as it has far more utility in most situations.

Erondil wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Magicka NB here
WTT my annulment for your hardened ward.

Roll a sorc.

So tired of NBs crying they don't have a sorc skill. You have other skills! -_-

I'm not crying, I'm doing perfectly fine without hardened ward. But this one is all the way much better than annulment, you cant deny it. Was just an answer to the guy saying that annulment is "the best shield" with healing ward. Healing ward is probably the best shield indeed, annulment is very good but not close to hardened ward.

Soulac wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

maysonet_ESO wrote: »

In 1.7 (as far as we can tell):
No more permablock.
No more spamming dodge roll.
Shields can still be spammed.

Shield strength is only getting a very minor reduction in proportion to the health/damage nerfs. However, Healing Ward is taking a big hit, so it's unknown how large of an effect that will end up being.

wich health nerfs?

the changes make armor much more worthwhile (if they manage to get pierce to a proper but still worthwhile value) as health in cyrodiil is not touched maximising your healthpool via passiv mitigation wich light armor doesent provide at all survivability is massivle pushed away from light armor users...

Soulac wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

All shields in the game should scale off maximum health. If you want large shields put points into health. If you want more damage put points into magicka. You shouldn't get the best offence and defence in the game from one stat.

how would that work for stamina.... they use the stamina for defense also
I agree but it wouldnt really be fair then.

Of course it's not fair, but these defense mechanics are available for everyone, get a nerf with the next patch and got skills bypassing it.
Also if you get to stun him, he won't have any defense stuff up, unlike shields which stay until they're broken.

you would then need to negate any armor mitigation while beeing stunned too.

Okay, then I want to be immune to critical hits as well.
Shields: Precast defense, still active if stunned
Dodge: active defense, not active if stunned

Dodge is available for everyone, good shields are not.
Of course Stamina builds are able to use dodge quite often, but with the next patch you won't be able to spam dodge anymore, the only defense of stamina builds.
Magicka Builds can dodge as well, not as often but still enough and in addition to that you can spam shields without any penalty. Also you probably have some of your Shield left while stunned and you're basically immune to critical hits.

In 1v1 or even 1v2: Shields > roll
In larger fights it depends on the enemy zerg I'd say. Sometimes I die in mid roll since dodge is such a reliable defense ability.
I stopped counting how often I got hit by something in the middle of a roll and now tell me how often your shields doesn't work and I don't mean a visual bug..

Let's wait for the next patch first tho.

sorry but the best shields are anulment and healing ward and both are available to everybody.
but i do agree lets wait for the PTS atleast to gather some first hand experience especially in regards of other changes (to abilities) that are applied.

Stamina: amount of possible dodge rolls is higher
Magicka: amount of possible Shield casts is higher

But the strength of roll stays the same, while shields are based on your magicka.
Both available for everybody, but the shields you named are only useful for Magicka builds and you're still able to roll and that as good as I do.
If you sacrifice some Magicka and invest some CP at the right spots you can achieve around 25 Dodge rolls per minute and that as Magicka build.
If I sacrifice my Stamina I could surely cast 25 shields, but it's not worth it at all.

Dodge is useful for everybody, shields are not.

In theory you can, but in fact, at least for magicka NB, a build with 25 dodgeroll/min isnt a viable build. I tried a medium armor setup with drinks, was cool to dodgeroll a lot but I lost ~1k dmg TT (7k less magicka because you want 20k hp with drinks and 170 spell dmg because eyes of mara instead of martial knowledge) on my concelead weapon, no spell penetration from light armor and I couldnt kill anything.
Shields have a lot of advantages over rolldodge, rolldodge has a lot of advantages too... I dont think a discussion about which one is the more OP would end.

My theorycrafted build, even as khajiit, got a Concealed Tooltip of 6.223 Dmg while still using Drinks.
That´s more than I got on my DPS Stamina Build without Whitestrake..

Unbuffed?doubt it. The setup I tried was 4 eyes of mara 4 magnus 4 healers 5m 1l 1h. With this setup drinks, atronach and 3 reduc cost I was already running oom quite fast and 5.1k tooltip unbuffed (with 4mk instead of eyes of mara and food I got 6k). You could get more sd by switching healer for cyro light+adroitness or even sd glyph but then youre oom way too fast. I dont see any other setup that could give you more sd with a decent magicka managment and enough hp (imo you need at least 20k in cyrodiil, thats why magicka is so low with drinks: 27k)
If its buffed then youre doing something wrong on your dps build :P

6.3k buffed Concealed tool tip
30k Magicka as Khajiit, around 34k as Dunmer.
20k Health
2.2k Stamreg as Khajiit
2.5k Magreg

In total you get more resources per minute than my current Stamina Build gets.
Also no bufffood usage, so tooltip is ofc much lower since I need to spend points on health as well.

My surprise attack tooltip on my Stamina whitestrake build is 5.3k buffed, with skirmisher and flawless dawnbreaker instead I get to around 6.3k as well.

In order to get defense I sacrifice dmg and in my opinion 6.3k tooltip is enough since nirn gets nerfed.

Out of curiousity, what gear setup do you use to reach that? I guess you calculated with ~500cp, I dont see how you can get 20k hp 30k magicka otherwise (without emp hp bonus). Also give unbuffed tooltip and regen pls, idk which buffs you include (relentless focus,major sorcellery, invis bonus with/without khajiit passive, pots...) and I only remember my tool tips unbuffed anyway.

Edit: I dont think 6.3k buffed is enough with a magicka dw build btw. I guess its around 5.4-5.5k unbuffed which is less than what I got on my sb setup. Even agaisnt non-nirn players I have trouble to kill with sb, because harness, cp passive agaisnt magick dmg and all the crap. Also, keep in mind your light attacks hit for 600 instead of 2-3k and your bash for 400 instead of 1.5k-2k + you have no spell penetration. Basically your rotation with a stam whitestrake setup deals much more dmg than this hybrid setup, even if you dont use bash cancel.

494 CP, correct.
I got 430 right now, probably around 500 until patch lunches.

6.3k Tool Tip after Nirn nerf should be enough in my opinion.
Stamina/Magicka Reg bit less than i got in my memory.. :P

4 pc Magnus
4 pc Healer
4 pc Martial

2450 Buffed, but unstealthed/cloaked Spelldmg
2085 Stamina Reg
2417 Magicka Reg
30538 Magicka
6247 Tooltip Concealed

Keep in mind that these stats don´t include any good racials. My Racials are probably the worst ever for Magicka Builds since i ain´t got anything except 10% dmg boost, which is good for burst but overall just a DPS loss (except invis bats)

Basically its the same setup as mine but you use drinks thanks to cp^^ but no medium armor so you cant really offer much dodgerolls, you got 9k stamina and you want to always save 4k stam in case you got cced. With such magicka regen you can go reduce rolldodge cost glyphs tho... The problem with a low stamina pool is that you cant spam dodgeroll 3-4 times in a row (what you sometimes have to do as NB) even with a high regen.

Anyway this kind of build starts to be viable when you're close to 500 cp, a number reached by very few yet, and at some point, anything works with enough cp anyway Thats why I said it doesnt work : sure, it does for those who grinded all day for months and it will work for the average pvp player when those will have reached this cap, but atm it doesnt.
You make it sounds like any magicka player can dodgeroll 25times/min with a viable build, no they cant lol, they gotta grind 200 hours before.

I think with enough CP Medium armor becomes by far the best choice for Most classes with the way things stand. You can craft a build that is magicka based with "unlimited" stamina regen or you can craft a build that is stamina based with "unlimited" magicka regen. I say unlimited because you'll never run out of either in any situation where you manage the resource.

The real power of dodge roll is the fact it has its own GCD. You can cast an ability, cancel it with dodge roll and then cast another ability without a hitch. No other defensive ability is like this.

In a world of infinite resources, GCDs end up defining your overall potential. You'll want every action you take to have as much impact as possible and you'll design your build around that. Right now maxing weapon/spell power and shield size are symptoms of this.

Erock25 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

@Ezareth vemon arrow acts like destructive reach in that the CC/interrupt only applies if it actually damages the enmies healthbar. So VAing a temp with blazing shield/sorc with hardened wont do anything to protecr you unless you have enough damage to break the remaining shield.

This is utter stupidity. Shields should not grant users immunity to CCs, dots, procs, and secondary effects.

As a vocal "sorc is not OP" person, I can say that I completely agree with the above.

Eric said issues with this are all bugs and something they'd like to fix with an overhaul of the shields themselves.

Personally I think magical dots should tick against shields, but bleed effects and such should not be able to hit a player with a shield.