Why are PvE players so upset PvP players are getting something

Etharian · July 2015

its like when you were little and you went shopping with mom for new clothes and your sister was there but she didnt get anything for the new school year, she will cry and pout all the way home. A few days later she will get over it.... this is the exact same thing..

Sister = PVE'ers

JMadFour · July 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Are people like that who are complaining about IC purely because it's not a PVE DLC in the minority? Maybe. Heck, I'll even say probably. But they do exist.

OK I stand corrected. MOST of the complaining is about the TV Stone looting.

would you agree though, that the entire system seems to me built to encourage PVErs to come to Cyrodiil to get their VR16 stuff, so that PVPers have more targets?

Etharian · July 2015

Anhedonie wrote: »

It's not about PVPers getting something. It's about PVErs getting nothing.

thats got to be one of the brattiest thing ive heard yet on this whole debacle... LOL

Samadhi · July 2015

JMadFour wrote: »

As someone who roams in both worlds (PVP and PVE), this is my opinion on the OP's question.

The real reason that PVErs are upset, is this, in all honesty:

The Tel Var Stone looting system *appears* to be designed solely to bring PVE "Carebears" into Cyrodiil to be fodder for experienced PVPers.

there is nothing in the system that really suggests that its purpose is to encourage PVPers to fight each other. and if so, it's a secondary goal. the primary goal, APPEARS to be to get more bodies into Cyrodiil PVP zones, by dangling Loot for PVErs to covet, and to provide more (and easier) targets for PVPers.

that's it. really. that's why there are PVErs that are mad. They aren't mad that PVPers are getting content. They just don't want to be the content.

which is why I suggest that they simply save their money and don't buy Imp City.

also note, that the Tel Var Stone looting system is literally the ONLY THING any PVEr has complained about in regards to this DLC.

So the real reason that PvErs are upset is a misperception about the system being catered to them when it is not?

Here is a simple point to consider:
The system still functions, in its entirety, if no PvEr ever enters Imperial City.

PvP players will do the PvE content, because they know that doing it will result in PvP with other players trying to get their stones.

The Tel Var system is the primary mechanic that distinguishes the PvP in Imperial City from the PvP in Cyrodiil.

UrQuan · July 2015

JMadFour wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Are people like that who are complaining about IC purely because it's not a PVE DLC in the minority? Maybe. Heck, I'll even say probably. But they do exist.

OK I stand corrected. MOST of the complaining is about the TV Stone looting.

would you agree though, that the entire system seems to me built to encourage PVErs to come to Cyrodiil to get their VR16 stuff, so that PVPers have more targets?

I wouldn't quite agree with that, but I almost would. I would say that the system is built to encourage PVEers to come to Imperial City to get their VR16 stuff, in the hopes that they'll end up having to engage in some PVP on a smaller scale than what you usually see in Cyrodiil, enjoy it, and start doing some PVP.

Will it work out that way? Maybe, maybe not. Probably some PVEers will find that they enjoy the PVP, while others will never have any interest in it. I strongly suspect that's the idea behind it all though.

Farorin · July 2015

markt84 wrote: »

Violynne wrote: »

I'm not upset. I just started the game for console, so there's plenty to keep me busy for a while. During this time, perhaps another DLC for more PvE quests will be added.

I will eventually try the PvP arena, but not for a while. I want to continue playing the game solo (mostly) because it's wicked fun.

I see this game being a better investment than Destiny, so I will remain patient. Besides, November isn't that far away, where I take a break from ESO.
:P

Well don't worry they already added a bunch of content for PvE and the next dlc will be PvE as well. Zos loves PvEers, they decided to throw PvP a bone, and has PvEers in a uproar

This. This is what is bugging me about all the PVEers raging and crying.

I love both PVE and PVP.

ZOS up until now has only ever seemed to have any care for PVE players.

Finally, we get some PVP content, after over a year of PVE updates and content, and the PVE only players are trying to wreck it.

WillhelmBlack · July 2015

[/quote]
sho imagine how the other person feels..
[/quote]

I'd feel like finding you and tea-bagging you.

ThyIronFist · July 2015

Simple. Because they're entitled crybabies, apparently after all the content ZOS has showered them with (compared to absolute nothing that the PvPers have been getting) they still dare to whine and complain. It's so sad, really.

Anhedonie wrote: »

It's not about PVPers getting something. It's about PVErs getting nothing.

And this is what I mean, god I can't believe it... Craglorn, Trials, Upper Craglorn, Dungeons, Undaunted, Justice System... even the Imperial City will have some PvE to make you carebears happy. But I guess that's not enough right?

JMadFour · July 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

So the real reason that PvErs are upset is a misperception about the system being catered to them when it is not?

Here is a simple point to consider:
The system still functions, in its entirety, if no PvEr ever enters Imperial City.

PvP players will do the PvE content, because they know that doing it will result in PvP with other players trying to get their stones.

The Tel Var system is the primary mechanic that distinguishes the PvP in Imperial City from the PvP in Cyrodiil.

I wouldn't call being made into PVP fodder "being catered to."

as to your point, that remains to be seen, given how many PVPers actively claim to disdain PVE, and spend so much forum time belitting PVE and everyone who actually likes PVE content.

are they really gonna go "pick flowers" and "mindlessly bash mindless boring easy npcs"? we'll see.

Elephant42 · July 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

JMadFour wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Are people like that who are complaining about IC purely because it's not a PVE DLC in the minority? Maybe. Heck, I'll even say probably. But they do exist.

OK I stand corrected. MOST of the complaining is about the TV Stone looting.

would you agree though, that the entire system seems to me built to encourage PVErs to come to Cyrodiil to get their VR16 stuff, so that PVPers have more targets?

I wouldn't quite agree with that, but I almost would. I would say that the system is built to encourage PVEers to come to Imperial City to get their VR16 stuff, in the hopes that they'll end up having to engage in some PVP on a smaller scale than what you usually see in Cyrodiil, enjoy it, and start doing some PVP.

Will it work out that way? Maybe, maybe not. Probably some PVEers will find that they enjoy the PVP, while others will never have any interest in it. I strongly suspect that's the idea behind it all though.

Like you I think that IC is an attempt to improve the PVP population by "encouraging" people to PVP who would otherwise not. I have _never_ appreciated this form of "encouragement", never will and refuse to be a part of it. As a consequence I will miss out on some content - no biggie.

IMHO it's not the TV stones or level cap raise or missing out on content that are the issues here. TV stones are no different to AP points apart from the loot on death aspect - they both provide exclusive gear and one can choose to care about getting the gear or not. It also seems that there will be several options in the PVE areas to get V16 loot/XP.

If you are like me and don't ever want to set foot in a PVP zone then the following ARE big issues:
1. If you are a crafter who likes to gather their own resources you are screwed.
2. If you are a master crafter who wants to be able to craft all available sets you are screwed.
3. If you are an alchemist who likes to gather their own solvents you are screwed.

So I won't be getting IC, and unless my points 1. - 3. turn out to be unfounded once the thing hits the PTS, I will not maintain a sub. This will put a bit of a sour taste on what has up to now been a fairly sweet experience.

TLDR: If I can get the new mats and solvents in the old PVE areas and craft the new sets in the old PVE areas then I will continue my sub, ignore Cyrodil as I have been doing up to now and happily carry on with my Tamriel adventure.

technohic · July 2015

JMadFour wrote: »

As someone who roams in both worlds (PVP and PVE), this is my opinion on the OP's question.

The real reason that PVErs are upset, is this, in all honesty:

The Tel Var Stone looting system *appears* to be designed solely to bring PVE "Carebears" into Cyrodiil to be fodder for experienced PVPers.

there is nothing in the system that really suggests that its purpose is to encourage PVPers to fight each other. and if so, it's a secondary goal. the primary goal, APPEARS to be to get more bodies into Cyrodiil PVP zones, by dangling Loot for PVErs to covet, and to provide more (and easier) targets for PVPers.

that's it. really. that's why there are PVErs that are mad. They aren't mad that PVPers are getting content. They just don't want to be the content.

which is why I suggest that they simply save their money and don't buy Imp City.

also note, that the Tel Var Stone looting system is literally the ONLY THING any PVEr has complained about in regards to this DLC.

I keep reading this and I don't get the same feeling that it is meant to draw "PvEers" in. Are we talking about people how ONLY PvE? Because the reality is, PvPers generally are PvEers that have a taste for PvP as well usually more so than just being "PvP ONLY."

A lot of PvE only people seem to think we want to bait them in and kill them. I will admit there will be joy in it when people whine, but I personally want people to fight with a purpose and fight hard. I'd just assume players who do not want that, do not come. Without it being a risk, you would get people who just grind, then just stand there to take their beating and just roll over until they get whatever this gear is that everyone is certain they want yet have no idea what it is.

The Tea Bag Stones themselves are what are there to fight over. We will kill mobs and fight hard when we see an enemy to get their stones as well, or at least fight like hell to keep our own and thats part of the exciting part of it. Cyrodiil is essentially a PvP server within a purely PvE game and I know the most fun I have PvPing in games is when it has occured naturally while leveling in the open world. Essentially; Tea Bag Stones will be the leveling and there will be those natural encounters to be had and even seeked out. It's not a typical feature, and that is what makes it exciting.

I'm sorry that pure PvE only players still feel starved for content as I do as well as far as my love outside of PvP in solo PvE; but all I can tell the PvE only players is how much this is right up my alley and hope they at least understand that and I hope they get content up theres soon

Samadhi · July 2015

JMadFour wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

So the real reason that PvErs are upset is a misperception about the system being catered to them when it is not?

Here is a simple point to consider:
The system still functions, in its entirety, if no PvEr ever enters Imperial City.

PvP players will do the PvE content, because they know that doing it will result in PvP with other players trying to get their stones.

The Tel Var system is the primary mechanic that distinguishes the PvP in Imperial City from the PvP in Cyrodiil.

I wouldn't call being made into PVP fodder "being catered to."

as to your point, that remains to be seen, given how many PVPers actively claim to disdain PVE, and spend so much forum time belitting PVE and everyone who actually likes PVE content.

My post referenced that you claimed PvE players feel the system is designed to lure them into PvE.
It is not. The system functions if no PvE players participate.

PvP players in Cyrodiil kill mobs on a regular basis every time they siege a castle or capture a resource.
Doing so also triggers PvP, such as when people rush to defend a castle; or, in the case of Imperial City, when they try to steal stones.
Grinding Veteran zone quests or doing Undaunted Pledges carries no such threat, and no such interest.

Having World Bosses in PvP zones for players to fight over who gets the prize is another example of this style of PvP that is being included in Imperial City.
Bosses having higher drop rates than regular mobs is highly similar to other games where the bosses with the best loot spawn in open PvP areas.
People have to battle to kill the boss and receive the drops, but they also have to battle other players. The most coordinated guilds would have dedicated PvE players doing the damage with dedicated PvP players acting as body guards, then have formalized systems determining who gets gears at what rate as a result.

There are a number of PvP playstyles out there. Cyrodiil provided one. The Tel Var system provides another (a modification of full loot PvP), and its implementation also includes further forms.

UrQuan · July 2015

technohic wrote: »

The Tea Bag Stones themselves are what are there to fight over.

Oh man, as much disdain as I have for the immature folk who engage in tea bagging, I hope that from now on this is the name that everyone uses for these stones...

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · July 2015

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

markt84 · July 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

That does nothing to make PvP more intense, all it is is more content. PvEers want more and harder content. PvPers want a more rewarding PvP experience. And this makes deaths matter and add to the thrill of victory. People were wanting to players to lose gear when they died to add punishment to death and reward to victory, so zos added a new currency that is specifically to do this without making the punishment too high. I think zos did an exect job of figuring out a way to reward killing players, while not really punishing players. I mean why cry about losing stones that aren't really yours until you bank them. PvP in IC will have a constant risk/reward dynamic going on at all times. Battles now have an element of fear of death...sounds great can't wait

Samadhi · July 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

So rather than Imperial City being a different PvP system, it would basically be Cyrodiil junior.

I wouldn't buy a DLC that just rehashes Cyrodiil minus Keep control. I already get that for free, a different appearance for the map it takes place on would not sell me on it.
I would not need to buy it to get the gears from it; there would be no point to it.

If we were talking small-scale dedicated PvP arena, you could sell me on that. There is no semblance of that design in Imperial City though.

ESO PvP needs something new.
Tel Var system provides that.

OzJohnD · July 2015

markt84 wrote: »

OzJohnD wrote: »

okay, because you asked ...

I am forced to download a patch that is functionally useless to me as a casual PvE player. I have very limited data plans for internet where I live.

You aren't forced to get IC

and I won't be, but I will be forced to download the patch that includes it to allow my ESO to continue to run.

*sigh*

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · July 2015

OzJohnD wrote: »

markt84 wrote: »

OzJohnD wrote: »

okay, because you asked ...

I am forced to download a patch that is functionally useless to me as a casual PvE player. I have very limited data plans for internet where I live.

You aren't forced to get IC

and I won't be, but I will be forced to download the patch that includes it to allow my ESO to continue to run.

*sigh*

You get a lot of stuff without buying it. Glass motif I believe for example is for everyone. Ill just wait for the next DLC whenever that is. Meanwhile I guess I will continue what I have been doing. Playing SWTOR.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · July 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

So rather than Imperial City being a different PvP system, it would basically be Cyrodiil junior.

I wouldn't buy a DLC that just rehashes Cyrodiil minus Keep control. I already get that for free, a different appearance for the map it takes place on would not sell me on it.
I would not need to buy it to get the gears from it; there would be no point to it.

If we were talking small-scale dedicated PvP arena, you could sell me on that. There is no semblance of that design in Imperial City though.

ESO PvP needs something new.
Tel Var system provides that.

You dont need to fight people who cant fight back to have fun. If you do thats the very definition of sociopathic behavior. Why on earth would it matter if you get the stones like AP or steal the ones from other people. I thought the point was PVP not looting? Just shows it is NOT about pvp but about killing people who you know cant fight back so you can take what they earned instead of earning it yourself. Its silly and mark my words will be one unmitigated disaster for ZOS.

OzJohnD · July 2015

yeah, I'm looking forward to Orsinium DLC ... personally finding it frustrating as a solo casual PvE'er finding nothing to do outside Craglorn and that's a nasty place for a V10 glass cannon. Can't group well on PS4 ... working on alts but stonewalled by some major quest bugs that haven't been fixed since day 1 PC ESO ... claimed to be fixed "next patch"... yeah right, when I see it I will believe it

Samadhi · July 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

So rather than Imperial City being a different PvP system, it would basically be Cyrodiil junior.

I wouldn't buy a DLC that just rehashes Cyrodiil minus Keep control. I already get that for free, a different appearance for the map it takes place on would not sell me on it.
I would not need to buy it to get the gears from it; there would be no point to it.

If we were talking small-scale dedicated PvP arena, you could sell me on that. There is no semblance of that design in Imperial City though.

ESO PvP needs something new.
Tel Var system provides that.

You dont need to fight people who cant fight back to have fun. If you do thats the very definition of sociopathic behavior. Why on earth would it matter if you get the stones like AP or steal the ones from other people. I thought the point was PVP not looting? Just shows it is NOT about pvp but about killing people who you know cant fight back so you can take what they earned instead of earning it yourself. Its silly and mark my words will be one unmitigated disaster for ZOS.

I do not even need them to enter Imperial City for me to have fun.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · July 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

So rather than Imperial City being a different PvP system, it would basically be Cyrodiil junior.

I wouldn't buy a DLC that just rehashes Cyrodiil minus Keep control. I already get that for free, a different appearance for the map it takes place on would not sell me on it.
I would not need to buy it to get the gears from it; there would be no point to it.

If we were talking small-scale dedicated PvP arena, you could sell me on that. There is no semblance of that design in Imperial City though.

ESO PvP needs something new.
Tel Var system provides that.

You dont need to fight people who cant fight back to have fun. If you do thats the very definition of sociopathic behavior. Why on earth would it matter if you get the stones like AP or steal the ones from other people. I thought the point was PVP not looting? Just shows it is NOT about pvp but about killing people who you know cant fight back so you can take what they earned instead of earning it yourself. Its silly and mark my words will be one unmitigated disaster for ZOS.

I do not even need them to enter Imperial City for me to have fun.

Ah ok nice so you dont mind turning off looting of stones then. Good show.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · July 2015

OzJohnD wrote: »

yeah, I'm looking forward to Orsinium DLC ... personally finding it frustrating as a solo casual PvE'er finding nothing to do outside Craglorn and that's a nasty place for a V10 glass cannon. Can't group well on PS4 ... working on alts but stonewalled by some major quest bugs that haven't been fixed since day 1 PC ESO ... claimed to be fixed "next patch"... yeah right, when I see it I will believe it

They are so busy trying to balance pvp and add things for pvp pve has taken a back seat basically since upper craglorn almost 10 months ago.

Samadhi · July 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

So rather than Imperial City being a different PvP system, it would basically be Cyrodiil junior.

I wouldn't buy a DLC that just rehashes Cyrodiil minus Keep control. I already get that for free, a different appearance for the map it takes place on would not sell me on it.
I would not need to buy it to get the gears from it; there would be no point to it.

If we were talking small-scale dedicated PvP arena, you could sell me on that. There is no semblance of that design in Imperial City though.

ESO PvP needs something new.
Tel Var system provides that.

You dont need to fight people who cant fight back to have fun. If you do thats the very definition of sociopathic behavior. Why on earth would it matter if you get the stones like AP or steal the ones from other people. I thought the point was PVP not looting? Just shows it is NOT about pvp but about killing people who you know cant fight back so you can take what they earned instead of earning it yourself. Its silly and mark my words will be one unmitigated disaster for ZOS.

I do not even need them to enter Imperial City for me to have fun.

Ah ok nice so you dont mind turning off looting of stones then. Good show.

If people are not capable PvPers, and have no desire to even try to learn to PvP, I would prefer if they stayed out of the way, and did not bother trying to farm the PvP currency.

Any capable PvPer, or player interested in learning is welcome with open arms.
It is important for any new learner to respect that Imperial City has a higher risk/reward factor than Cyrodiil though.

Anyone unwilling to participate with the mechanic of looting stones is free not to participate in the system.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · July 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My solution was instead of taking the player's stones you killed maybe you get a certain amount of stones per kill like you get AP right now. Would solve all the problems. PVP would still happen. Youd still get stones for killing other players. Just they wouldnt lose their stuff.

So rather than Imperial City being a different PvP system, it would basically be Cyrodiil junior.

I wouldn't buy a DLC that just rehashes Cyrodiil minus Keep control. I already get that for free, a different appearance for the map it takes place on would not sell me on it.
I would not need to buy it to get the gears from it; there would be no point to it.

If we were talking small-scale dedicated PvP arena, you could sell me on that. There is no semblance of that design in Imperial City though.

ESO PvP needs something new.
Tel Var system provides that.

You dont need to fight people who cant fight back to have fun. If you do thats the very definition of sociopathic behavior. Why on earth would it matter if you get the stones like AP or steal the ones from other people. I thought the point was PVP not looting? Just shows it is NOT about pvp but about killing people who you know cant fight back so you can take what they earned instead of earning it yourself. Its silly and mark my words will be one unmitigated disaster for ZOS.

I do not even need them to enter Imperial City for me to have fun.

Ah ok nice so you dont mind turning off looting of stones then. Good show.

If people are not capable PvPers, and have no desire to even try to learn to PvP, I would prefer if they stayed out of the way, and did not bother trying to farm the PvP currency.

Any capable PvPer, or player interested in learning is welcome with open arms.
It is important for any new learner to respect that Imperial City has a higher risk/reward factor than Cyrodiil though.

Anyone unwilling to participate with the mechanic of looting stones is free not to participate in the system.

PVP currency is AP. If was really PVP currency you wouldnt need to kill mobs to get it.

IWannaBeATiger · July 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

If people are not capable PvPers, and have no desire to even try to learn to PvP, I would prefer if they stayed out of the way, and did not bother trying to farm the PvP currency.

Any capable PvPer, or player interested in learning is welcome with open arms.
It is important for any new learner to respect that Imperial City has a higher risk/reward factor than Cyrodiil though.

Anyone unwilling to participate with the mechanic of looting stones is free not to participate in the system.

It isn't really pvp currency is it though you can't just kill someone from the other side and get it you have to get it from doing PvE before it can be taken in PvP.

Sausage · July 2015

Its called jealousy.

Samadhi · July 2015

IWannaBeATiger wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

If people are not capable PvPers, and have no desire to even try to learn to PvP, I would prefer if they stayed out of the way, and did not bother trying to farm the PvP currency.

Any capable PvPer, or player interested in learning is welcome with open arms.
It is important for any new learner to respect that Imperial City has a higher risk/reward factor than Cyrodiil though.

Anyone unwilling to participate with the mechanic of looting stones is free not to participate in the system.

It isn't really pvp currency is it though you can't just kill someone from the other side and get it you have to get it from doing PvE before it can be taken in PvP.

Then other games where elite bosses dropped PvP-specific gears in PvP zones that required players to also fight each other to earn the drops did not actually have PvP gears, even though those gears did not function outside of the PvP zones.

News to me.

Considering the history of issues with AP farming, having an different distribution method, similar to other games with PvP zones, is no surprise.

It is a different method of implementation from AP, with different associated rules.
It may seem strange or unfamiliar to players who are not familiar with a variety of PvP styles though. I can respect that.
For them, it will be a good opportunity to learn.

Am pleased with ZOS for diversifying PvP content, and the method they have chosen.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · July 2015

We shall see how pleased you are when you stand by yourself in IC after a couple months. or they announce zenimax has pulled the plug completely.

Celestrael · July 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

We shall see how pleased you are when you stand by yourself in IC after a couple months. or they announce zenimax has pulled the plug completely.

Calm it down Chicken Little, just because there's one aspect of the game you don't like in a DLC no one is making you buy, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who are eager to buy the DLC and enjoy the game. If you don't want to participate in IC, don't buy it. But coming here to complain all day isn't going to change anything. It's a PvP-centric DLC. Period. And it's been stated as such from ZOS.