Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

There's still plenty of PvE content to enjoy in Imperial City without ever having to PvP.

but getting to the PvE content in Imperial City is the problem. I can see my self getting ganged on by 20 AD NBs.
the other problem I see here is areas where there is PvE I feel that when im doing PvE content I will have PvPers running up on me and or my group.

I have a feeling when I roll through cyrodiil ill stop on top of a ridge line... I looking down to my imperial city entrance there's a ton of AD players just waiting for me.
will I have a chance to get in?

lets face it many players aren't buying this DLC for the PVE aspect of it, and now ZOS states we need to find certain mats for gear, yeah that just validates my claim.
I see large groups attacking PvEers just for these tel var stones. and other loot.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

MrGhosty wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Ketta wrote: »

Oh please, give up the PvP whining. Whether you're trying to make a joke or not, even a half-decent PvPer can see how ridiculous this new DLC is if it's rolled out as-is.

I'm not anti-PvP. I simply don't like it and don't PvP. Ever. I do not enjoy immersing myself in a 12-year-old's fantasy world where there aren't true consequences for killing and stealing. To those of you who feel this is an insult, I apologize. It isn't meant as one, but PvP in nearly every game I've played devolves to this state.

The quickest way to send me to the door with the EXIT sign over it is to force PvE players in a solidly PvE game to PvP on some level, whether it's for a quest or, in this case, releasing content that is so skewed toward PvP and leaves PvE all but out of this new content.

From what I've read and heard so far, from players and ZoS, leaves PvE out almost entirely. It's also set up so that long-time players have a distinct and significant advantage over those who haven't played as long, with no way for newer players to catch up, whether they're PvE or PvPers.

I've played games where new content all but leaves PvPers in the dust, and if you tout your game as having PvP content and pull crap like that, you end up making a lot of players unhappy, angry, and looking for other entertainment. What the heck does ZoS going to think is going to happen by alienating the majority of their player base, which is PvE?

I'm actually still so surprised, disgusted, and confused as to why ZoS thinks this content as-is is a good idea that I just can't EVEN. Nope. I was really looking forward to playing with my husband today, after completing Coldharbor, making us both fairly new in VR levels. But now....I feel like, what's the point?

ESO is a game with AVA focus, so its not a PVE game at all, quite the contrary actually.

Since day one, ZOS released a lot of content that would be more typical for a raid or die game, than for the AVA genre. From this point, you as a PVE only player shouldn't complain as you were served content in a game, that originally had a different type of player in mind.

The justice system, which was supposed to be the first update to the AVA system, was stripped of its actual PVP part, mostly because of the crying by some players and while I understood a few concerns, most of them were pretty hilarious, yet made the Devs consider them.

Now the Imperial City is about to roll out, the first pvp update in 16 months! Don't you think that your claims are not just unjustified, but also a bit rude? Rude to the Developers, but also the gamers.

Don't you think its about time, that the people who were once promised another Age of Camelot finally get a few new toys to play with and that you should at least test it out first, before you complain?

The good thing about DLC´s always was, you only have to buy it if you like it. So as the Americans tend to say, either you love it or you leave it.
While you should certainly not leave ESO because of a single non PVE focused DLC, you should probably leave this DLC aside if it doesn't appeal you on the PTS.

Just wait for the next one which will surely have enough new raids or quests for you, where you will not fear any pvp skill checks to succeed.

Needless to say, even this so called "PVP DLC", will offer new pve content as Gina & Jess already mentioned.

The fears some people tend to have about games is beyond me. If not all goes their way, they start acting as the world will go down

Where did it say that the PvP aspect of the justice system got scrapped because PvEers complained? From everything I saw it seemed like they didn't really know how to implement it and they even said it's a touchy system and was tricky to navigate. Lately it seems to have been completely abandoned. If you have a source for why it is someone else's fault but the developers I would love to see it.

As for the IC, I don't plan to buy it as that's not my cup of tea but I am glad to see something put in for the hardcore PvPers. I don't agree with forced PvP or PvE. I didn't agree with it when they added those undaunted helms that could only be obtained via dungeons and I don't agree now that we need to setup PvE players as stone pinatas for dedicated gank squads.

It's not confirmed it's scrapped, but it appears to be. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the chain of events mean it was primarily due to concern over PVE focused players' reactions to the idea. Essentially they announced the Justice system, PVE players complained it would be unfair and promote griefing despite being an opt in system, threatening boycotts. At the time ZOS hadn't yet launched consoles and the risk tolerance was understandably and wisely lower. Upon seeing the outcry, with 1.6 incoming, they then changed the plan to be a two phase implementation and little was said about the PVP in it ever again through now.

As I said, it's not very hard to see what happened. The difference with the Imperial City and how it's played out is that ZOS is in a much better position to do what they think will work for the game long term, and not sweat the smaller stuff as much, after having an arguably successful mechanics overhaul and other than potential and typical rebalancing on it, champion system implementation. This combined with the, by all accounts wildly commercially successful console launch and very clearly high player retention judging by activity levels on social media, forums, unofficial sales stats, and anecdotal reports, means we will see greater focus on the long haul even for short term unpopular ideas.


I have no inside info. However, it is a part of my field, so it is my best, educated guess.

Oh I'm aware that people didn't like it, name a single feature and we can probably find a post here on the forums or in the wild somewhere saying that it's the worst thing ever. They first showed a complete justice system at Quakecon last year at which point they mentioned the PvP aspect. Then when they announced it was coming they said the PvP portion was going to wait as they were having issues balancing it. It seemed to me that they too couldn't think of a way to make the system work without it being misused or completely disrupting the gameplay in the zones. Since the initial launch of the Justice system has cooled off I've not heard or seen anything about it so I'm assuming it was shuffled off to have a quiet death. Tis a shame really, I had been looking forward to that aspect. I don't think comparisons between it and this really work very well though.

In the justice system, if you opted out of the PvP you were only missing a very small portion of content. If you opt out of IC you lose access to the only new items for the levels they're adding so I can certainly see why some people would be upset by that. Me personally I plan to skip the DLC altogether and wait until the armors and stuff flood the guild vendors and the prices become reasonable (should they choose to make that content available to non dlc purchasing folk). As for your anecdotal evidence, I would say that your conclusion just happens to be your conclusion but no more immediately indicative of how it actually played out. I've seen ZOS make decisions that fly in the face of what appears to be the majority and have done since this game launched. There have certainly been some knee jerk reactions but I doubt they would have scrapped such a cool feature of the justice system simply because it annoyed some people just as I doubt they'll change their mind on most of the issues people have with IC.

All we can really do is let our opinions be known and hope that ZOS finds a way to figure out a way to make things work between our desires and their design philosphy.

MrGhosty wrote: »

...
In the justice system, if you opted out of the PvP you were only missing a very small portion of content. If you opt out of IC you lose access to the only new items for the levels they're adding so I can certainly see why some people would be upset by that. Me personally I plan to skip the DLC altogether and wait until the armors and stuff flood the guild vendors and the prices become reasonable (should they choose to make that content available to non dlc purchasing folk). ...

It is interesting that you say people are upset that opting out of Imperial City means that they lose access to the only new items for the levels ZOS is adding,
Then follow that up with a statement that you will be opting out of Imperial City and just buying the new items for the levels ZOS is adding.
It has apparently already been stated that the gears will be purchaseable for players who do not have the DLC; your idea is what PvP players are actually suggesting to players who do not want to participate in the content as well.

Hopefully more players will follow the same thought process, rather than insisting that PvP content be nuked because they do not want to play it.

Merlight wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

That's the same thing which happens when PvP-minigame receives "balance improvements" that completely ruin PvE balance. Nothing changed, move along.

Could you please give an example of ruined PvE balance? I can't fathom how that manifests itself.

Back in Beta, PvE Nightblade healers were highly effective.

ZOS reduced the effectiveness of the healing on Strife and its morphs.

PvP Nightblades to this day complain about lack of effective self-healing.

Oh wait, you wanted the reverse. My bad.

reapthetempestrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Ketta wrote: »

...
I'm not anti-PvP. I simply don't like it and don't PvP. Ever. I do not enjoy immersing myself in a 12-year-old's fantasy world where there aren't true consequences for killing and stealing. To those of you who feel this is an insult, I apologize. It isn't meant as one, but PvP in nearly every game I've played devolves to this state.
...

Bolded/italicized describes my issue with the Justice System at present not having a PvP portion.

Not expecting super cruel consequences for killing and stealing in a game, where the killing and stealing is not real.
However, the NPC guards are not sufficient to provide consequences within the context of the game. PvP in the Justice System would remedy this.

Guards should jail players for X amount of time

So you want a system where players simply play tag rather than PvPing to death?

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

ESO would be so much better placea without PVP.

No more nerf cry threads, no more "balances" breaking whole game for PVE players.
No more silly wars and now, with lootable TV stones ESO welcomes community of harassment and griefing.
And everyone smiles at the thought of losing 3 hours of their work of farming stones to a ganker who just logged in and camped sewer entrance.

ESO would fail w/o pvp.

Delusional. ESO is failing BECAUSE of PvP. All the endless nerfs and rebalances (thanks to PvP whiners) have nearly destroyed this game.

PVP is not the problem, the problem is ZOS have exactly the same skill sets and character builds transferring from PVE to PVP. They should have seperate balance for skills in PVP, similar to how call of duty has different weapon balance on the same weapons between zombies, multiplayer and campaign game modes

Samadhi wrote: »

Hopefully more players will follow the same thought process, rather than insisting that PvP content be nuked because they do not want to play it.

Truthfully, I've not heard anyone claiming to enjoy PvP insist that PvE be nuked. Nor have I heard PvE folks insist that PvP be nuked.

What I have heard from both sides is "I prefer X playstyle, which ZoS had said they intended to support. I do not want to have my only reasonable options for progression be restricted to or blocked by Y playstyle"

Put either PvP or PvE in either spot and it's still valid, and I still agree.

More options, more ways to do things, more respect for player choice as to how to play.

Arato wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

I really don't think it's the user base's fault that ZOS is running a year behind in their development of new PVP content.

That being said, I for one plan to leave you PVP-ers to enjoy your new city. I'll wait to pay for content I can enjoy.

This. Not anti pvp/ pvp-ers, just does nothing for me.

Unfortunately with the bump to VR16, PVE players will still be stuck in VR14 gear without IC.

That's not true if devs stick to what they have already confirmed, which is that VR16 mats and gear will be tradeable. PVE-ers don't have to go there for new gear and mats. It'll be cheaper to get in it IC than to buy it from other players on the market, sure, but what else is there to spend gold on anymore?

PVE-ers do not have to go there to be easy TV stone fodder for the PVP-ers. I stick to my original position, which is to just let the PVP players have their city.

Slurg wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

I really don't think it's the user base's fault that ZOS is running a year behind in their development of new PVP content.

That being said, I for one plan to leave you PVP-ers to enjoy your new city. I'll wait to pay for content I can enjoy.

This. Not anti pvp/ pvp-ers, just does nothing for me.

Unfortunately with the bump to VR16, PVE players will still be stuck in VR14 gear without IC.

That's not true if devs stick to what they have already confirmed, which is that VR16 mats and gear will be tradeable. PVE-ers don't have to go there for new gear and mats. It'll be cheaper to get in it IC than to buy it from other players on the market, sure, but what else is there to spend gold on anymore?

PVE-ers do not have to go there to be easy TV stone fodder for the PVP-ers. I stick to my original position, which is to just let the PVP players have their city.

When we're talking like 10,000 gold per ingot/leather/cloth/wood, buying is going to be out of most people's reach. Heck, if they go with how many mats are needed per piece of gear as it does with the other materials It'll require about 15 per piece. You'd blow a million gold on a set of gear and that's not even counting the tempers or enchants.

It could be more reasonable requirements, but I think 10,000g per resource is probably not too far off what it'll be, considering the risk required in getting those resources.

I completely agree with the OP, it's about time a content patch catered more to the PVPers (PVE players even if they totally hate pvp are still getting two new dungeons so not really "left out"). Reality is for PC players EVERY content patch since launch has been PVE based, PVP has barely gotten bug fixes and balancing nevermind anything big/new. Imperial City was announced about a year ago, we're getting it at last and I don't want to see the best new element (TV stones/risky PVP) getting nerfed into the ground by PVE players complaining they feel "excluded". Keep in mind too the next zone coming (Orsinium) is another addition to the 95% of the game that is PVE only.

Bottom line, the open PVP in imperial city isn't the "only" way to progress gear wise to VR 16 there's plenty in dungeons, I beleive the trials will be scaled up gear level wise as well. The sets purchasable with TV stones are the only ones that dedicated PVE players would be better off buying from other players rather then getting themselves. There are ALOT of gear sets that can only be obtained through PVE, so I don't see where the PVE players have grounds to complain there.

I completely agree that PvP players should have new content added for them. What I don't agree with, is the fact that PvE players need to go do PvE in PvP areas in order to get the best gear they can have.

I'm a PvE player. I like to go on raids. I don't care nor like PvP much, even though I'd say this game has one of the coolest PvP systems I've ever played. But in the end of the day, for me to really have fun in an MMO, I have to gather my group and go tackle hard dungeons and find ways to get through them. The level of enjoyment when you get out of a dungeon that took you 2-3 hours to clear, and you got out with the piece of loot you were looking for, is amazing. If, on the other hand, you get to lose everything you worked so hard to get because a group of another alliance decided they'd camp the dungeon exit to gang up on players coming out, it might be enough to make players quit.

Raiding isn't something everyone can do. It can be hard, frustrating, and need some great gear just to make sure the boss's health goes down. On the other hand, killing people by being 25 vs 12 can be done by any n00b.

How to make everyone happy?

There are a few ways to solve the problem, and I think they've pretty much all been covered by previous posters. You could put an option to toggle PvP on/off. This would probably be my way to go, because this way, everyone can explore everything without being afraid of having 10 people attack them.

Another way would be to scale everything else up to VR16, and make sure that all the gear that one can get in Imperial City can be obtained in another way (trials, instanced dungeons drops, craglorn group quests, crafting). This, though, would make it harder on the dev. team because they would need to add as much PvE content as PvP content, so in the end, I prefer the PvP toggle.

To the PvP players who say PvE players whine because they think they're too weak to play against you, I say that PvP players who want to be able to loot other players want this because they think they're too weak to take on real PvE content, and want to have it freely by ganging on those who work for their loot.

Ahh the old argument of superiority. PVPers think themselves gods because they can kill someone here and there. PVErs mock PVPers for being weak in PVE. Roleplayers are bashed from both sides. Well, people. It's time to stop being stupid. Nobody is a special snowflake. We are just open wallets. The problem here is with ZOS delay of content. If they were doing regular content updates, say a month for pvp, other for pve, etc, there would be no bs threads as this. Point is simple, fight amidst ourselves won't solve anything, we should all press them for regular content no matter if is aimed at an audience or another, that way we all end up with something we like.

Slurg wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

phairdon wrote: »

Slurg wrote: »

I really don't think it's the user base's fault that ZOS is running a year behind in their development of new PVP content.

That being said, I for one plan to leave you PVP-ers to enjoy your new city. I'll wait to pay for content I can enjoy.

This. Not anti pvp/ pvp-ers, just does nothing for me.

Unfortunately with the bump to VR16, PVE players will still be stuck in VR14 gear without IC.

That's not true if devs stick to what they have already confirmed, which is that VR16 mats and gear will be tradeable. PVE-ers don't have to go there for new gear and mats. It'll be cheaper to get in it IC than to buy it from other players on the market, sure, but what else is there to spend gold on anymore?

PVE-ers do not have to go there to be easy TV stone fodder for the PVP-ers. I stick to my original position, which is to just let the PVP players have their city.

When we're talking like 10,000 gold per ingot/leather/cloth/wood, buying is going to be out of most people's reach. Heck, if they go with how many mats are needed per piece of gear as it does with the other materials It'll require about 15 per piece. You'd blow a million gold on a set of gear and that's not even counting the tempers or enchants.

It could be more reasonable requirements, but I think 10,000g per resource is probably not too far off what it'll be, considering the risk required in getting those resources.

Now you're just making up numbers to scare people. Look how much the prices of other rare items - dwarven motifs, nirncrux, psijic ambrosia mats - dropped after they were out for a couple of weeks. No reason to think it'll be 10,000 per crafting mat at all, and if it is, it won't be for long. And if you didn't notice, some people already blow a million gold on a set of max level gear. This is not new. People with max level characters have a lot of gold and nothing to spend it on other than gear.

Rich Lambert himself said this one is for the PVP players. Now people can get all huffy and ask where the update is for PVE players then, or why the heck they're raising the level cap when they're supposedly doing away with VR. Those are valid concerns. But it's been made clear this is primarily for PVP players with a side of PVE for people who enjoy both play styles and pure PVE players are not going to be forced into it. So PVE players should stop trying to create a panic to force the devs to make IC something it's not meant to be.

Those other items that dropped in price have supplies that cannot be controlled by a small group of people to keep prices high.

See WW/Vamp bites. people camped the spawns so that the supply of bites was controlled and prices remained high for months until the DEMAND for the bites dropped.

It's going to be like that here because of how PVP is going to control a majority of the supply. Guilds will be able to control IC and Tel Var stone drops in campaigns. They may use strategies like having alts in sister guilds in other factions, in the IC, ganking anyone not in their guild to prevent other people from having stones. Supply will be controlled and as long as demand is high, prices will be high.

Nirnhoned materials aren't cheap, even months later, because supply remains fairly limited because of how rare it is.