DONE WITH PVP! / NO FUN! - (Newcomers vs. Veterans)

Rune_Relic · July 2015

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Join a PvP guild. The experience and AP will roll in, and you can contribute just fine if you stick in your assigned role.

Which will be siege jockey. "Ok here is your job, once we get them running around the rock or the tower or the boulders you drop your two flame ballista and your meatballer and keep mashing them."

Even VR14 won't buy new players much 200 champion pts behind most players. It will take 6 months of masochism to catch up remain 6 months behind.

Fixed

Tobius · July 2015

I have honestly never understood why when people are low level in PvP, they expect to be able to stand up to high leveled players. I use to play a game a while ago were the low leveled complained so much about not being able to take out higher levels that the developer made changes... to where a level 15 could take down a level 60. After that the game sucked. Why is it in PvP do some want to be able to take down a higher level, one don't expect to be able to do it in PvE.

Phoenix99 · July 2015

Tobius wrote: »

I have honestly never understood why when people are low level in PvP, they expect to be able to stand up to high leveled players. I use to play a game a while ago were the low leveled complained so much about not being able to take out higher levels that the developer made changes... to where a level 15 could take down a level 60. After that the game sucked. Why is it in PvP do some want to be able to take down a higher level, one don't expect to be able to do it in PvE.

because the more gap you create between the entry player and the no-life-grind-player, the less competitive the PvP becomes.

All of the best competitive PvP games have only a one gap, and that is the SKILL gap. The games that create huge entry gaps on gear/lvls kill their PvP in infancy and never recover, because to sustain PvP environment you need LESS gear/level dependency and not more... if people feel that their skill is heavily outclassed by lvl/CP amount/grind, then they will not even try and will quit after a few attempts, especially when there is a lot of better PvP alternatives on the market and the game is F2P.

Gunphu · July 2015

"For starters, what defines ‘fair and balanced’? Most would make that judgment during or directly after an actual encounter, but I think that’s selling the whole thing short. If you get ganked in a 10v1, it’s hard to argue the fight was fair or balanced, but I’d ask why it was a 10v1 to begin with. If you lost a 1v1 because someone had a major character/gear advantage, I doubt you would call that an even fight, but I’d again ask ‘why’ the other guy had such an advantage. I’d also ask how important player-skill was in the fight as well.

That, to me, is one of the core differences between an MMORPG and a FPS; characters matter, and ‘balance’ is player-driven rather than hard-coded.

In a FPS, you can’t ‘zerg’ the other side on a 16v16 server, and you can’t bring out and risk the big toys to out-gear them either. It’s just you and 15 others, all with the same HP total, the same available weapons, and on a map that starts neutral, against 16 other guys. Before the first shot is fired, everything is ‘fair and balanced’ in terms of characters/gear, and it’s a pure player-skill driven game. The better players should always win unless luck plays a major role. Which is great if that’s what you are looking to play, but 99% of the time, it’s not what I’m after.

What I am looking for is a game where character progress matters. Where who you know and who you can call upon matters. Where what you bring out, and more importantly, risk, matters. Where yesterday impacts today, and sets up tomorrow.

That’s what an MMORPG is all about. You put in the ‘work’, you reap the rewards. And that work can be PvE grinding, playing politics, infiltrating clans, etc. Point is, you can tip the scales of balance in your favor before the fight even starts, but that in itself takes skill and determination. A FPS is just a raw display of twitch skills, while MMORPG success is a complex web of inputs that, more often than not, leaves someone on the short end of the stick.

If you are looking for a ‘fair and balanced’ fight, an MMO is not the right place to look, and that’s by design."

-Mostly quoted from an article on syncaine.com

I have been playing MMORPG PvP since the 90's and cant agree more with this article. If character progression is your issue you should move away from MMO's for PvP. Every single game that has catered to the casual player after a few people complain has turned to utter trash and flopped shortly after.

I played VR1 - VR6 doing nothing but pvp and seem to hold my own to all but a select few. I often find level 40 DK's harder to kill than most high VR characters and to me thats more infuriating than getting killed by a rank 14 PC transfer.

tist · July 2015

They're reducing damage and making low vet's stronger. It will be much more balanced soon.

ItsRejectz · July 2015

Bye

Phoenix99 · July 2015

Gunphu wrote: »

"For starters, what defines ‘fair and balanced’? Most would make that judgment during or directly after an actual encounter, but I think that’s selling the whole thing short. If you get ganked in a 10v1, it’s hard to argue the fight was fair or balanced, but I’d ask why it was a 10v1 to begin with. If you lost a 1v1 because someone had a major character/gear advantage, I doubt you would call that an even fight, but I’d again ask ‘why’ the other guy had such an advantage. I’d also ask how important player-skill was in the fight as well.

That, to me, is one of the core differences between an MMORPG and a FPS; characters matter, and ‘balance’ is player-driven rather than hard-coded.

In a FPS, you can’t ‘zerg’ the other side on a 16v16 server, and you can’t bring out and risk the big toys to out-gear them either. It’s just you and 15 others, all with the same HP total, the same available weapons, and on a map that starts neutral, against 16 other guys. Before the first shot is fired, everything is ‘fair and balanced’ in terms of characters/gear, and it’s a pure player-skill driven game. The better players should always win unless luck plays a major role. Which is great if that’s what you are looking to play, but 99% of the time, it’s not what I’m after.

What I am looking for is a game where character progress matters. Where who you know and who you can call upon matters. Where what you bring out, and more importantly, risk, matters. Where yesterday impacts today, and sets up tomorrow.

That’s what an MMORPG is all about. You put in the ‘work’, you reap the rewards. And that work can be PvE grinding, playing politics, infiltrating clans, etc. Point is, you can tip the scales of balance in your favor before the fight even starts, but that in itself takes skill and determination. A FPS is just a raw display of twitch skills, while MMORPG success is a complex web of inputs that, more often than not, leaves someone on the short end of the stick.

If you are looking for a ‘fair and balanced’ fight, an MMO is not the right place to look, and that’s by design."

-Mostly quoted from an article on syncaine.com

I have been playing MMORPG PvP since the 90's and cant agree more with this article. If character progression is your issue you should move away from MMO's for PvP. Every single game that has catered to the casual player after a few people complain has turned to utter trash and flopped shortly after.

I played VR1 - VR6 doing nothing but pvp and seem to hold my own to all but a select few. I often find level 40 DK's harder to kill than most high VR characters and to me thats more infuriating than getting killed by a rank 14 PC transfer.

To me the only "casuals" are the ones who prefer 'grind-to-win' mechanics, which overshadow true skill. I do not mind an edge, like 5%-10% more in resrouces or dmg, between regular gear and best gear in terms of survivability and dps, but the current set up is just broken and actually KILLS any chances for good PvP in its early stages (or actually should be noted that it KILLED)

lets pick up a vr 14 with around 300 CPs and gold gear. - that person can easily sport around 20k in secondary stats and over 30k in primary stat, the base weapon/spell is set up at around 2,500 cause they need to balance things out (in PvE you can get numbers in 3,500 ranges), they also sport a regen in over 2,5k in their stats. I do not touch resistances cause with nirn they suffer minor spell damage and the physical resistances is decent too.

Now compare that to a lets say vr5 with 20CP and regular drop gear ( non-crafted greens/blues and some green food) that person sports around 18-20k HP and around 12-16 in other stats, regens are at 600ish range, weapon and spell dmg are at around 1k - this is probably a picture for the newer players

The difference between the two is huge... it is not 5-10% effectivness, it's more like 30-50 times that when you add crits, build synergies, etc. That person will never come close to winning any sort of 1v1 or even 10v1 of such people.

Mute all the CPs effects and hard cap stats (primary regen) in PvP at a certain level that can be easily obtained without heavy grind and then you can have more skill based environment. In PvE, go ham, get rid of every constraint and have people grind their hearts out for the highest leaderboard places, but for PvP to be successful it NEEDS to revolve around skill, not grind... otherwise you will end up with an empty husk of PvP environment. Which PvPs are more successful commercially and viewer and player wise? the grind to win, which frankly nobody cares for (even ZoS in case of TES:O) or the ones which are based on players skill and co-operation?

The only MMO which is even remotely close to "competitive" is WoW, but Blizzard poured a lot of money into that game and it has vastly different mechanics when it comes to PvP, they are more similar to MOBA games than to what TESO has to offer.

Gunphu · July 2015

1. WOW was never fair or very balanced.
2. This game would be bland as hell if they did what you reccomend.

Remove character progress and I guarantee it withers away even faster. Im not saying the current state is perfect as it obviously needs alot of tuning. But if you want fair and balanced go play a MOBA or FPS. Fair is not something that an RPG or MMORPG tend to offer. Even balance is nigh impossible.

EQ1 had a very similar system to CP's and people had well over a 1000 of them. Not only that but the PvE was open world so certain guilds had gear 20x better than the other 98% of the population...some of the best pvp and memorable gaming moments I have ever had. Not only that but the game stuck around for years.

Phoenix99 · July 2015

Gunphu wrote: »

1. WOW was never fair or very balanced.
2. This game would be bland as hell if they did what you reccomend.

Remove character progress and I guarantee it withers away even faster. Im not saying the current state is perfect as it obviously needs alot of tuning. But if you want fair and balanced go play a MOBA or FPS. Fair is not something that an RPG or MMORPG tend to offer. Even balance is nigh impossible.

EQ1 had a very similar system to CP's and people had well over a 1000 of them. Not only that but the PvE was open world so certain guilds had gear 20x better than the other 98% of the population...some of the best pvp and memorable gaming moments I have ever had. Not only that but the game stuck around for years.

I never said that WoW was fair or balanced, I pointed out it was in the "remotely competitive area" and that it has PvP mechanics more similar to MOBA than what TES:O has to offer. (collision, Cooldowns, etc.)

I bet dollars vs nuggets that you would see more people in PvP if the game at launch would be remotely balanced, and the power gap between entry level player in vr4-vr10 ranks compared to fully geared up vr 10 would be in the area of 5-10% disadvantage instead of what we have now.

I have the evidence of multiple PvP games that follow that mechanics and are popular. Remember that PvE and PvP populace rarely overlaps and PvP core players seek for games where their skill shines, not the amount of grind you have...

If the PvP was done well from the day 1, I would NEVER get back to PvE past level 15... in fact, i reached my levels through PvP only, with exception of initial 15 levels and then some levels 36 to 50 where I completed DC storyline. I did not finish AD story content and I am far away from EP story content as DC player, but then again i canceled my sub after 6months and returned to play this game occasionally to kill time between real PvP games, because I have it in library and is now F2P for me... That plus old guild wants to re-start, and I was one of few PvP officers there, and frankly the only one remotely active now in this game.

byCrux · July 2015

If you are not a veteran and you go to any campaign, you are given buffs (as I like to call: Getting your hand held) and are scaled to a high ass veteran rank. IMO I can't stand when people compare newcomers to veterans or similar things like that in other games. YOU are going up against someone who grinded out many many hours to achieve the best they can, and YOU expect to have a chance at beating them when you haven't even put in half the work they did? So you complain, as many others do, and the developers decide to give "newcomers" a chance. Making it pointless for people who just like to play cyrodiil, to level up to VR1 because they would have less stats than EVERYONE else. Correct me if I'm wrong but in the cyrodiil a VETERAN RANK 1 has the lowest amount of magicka, health, and stamina which is bs..

reften · July 2015

I didn't touch PvP till V14...stay away till than.

Bromburak · July 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Gunphu wrote: »

1. WOW was never fair or very balanced.
2. This game would be bland as hell if they did what you reccomend.

Remove character progress and I guarantee it withers away even faster. Im not saying the current state is perfect as it obviously needs alot of tuning. But if you want fair and balanced go play a MOBA or FPS. Fair is not something that an RPG or MMORPG tend to offer. Even balance is nigh impossible.

EQ1 had a very similar system to CP's and people had well over a 1000 of them. Not only that but the PvE was open world so certain guilds had gear 20x better than the other 98% of the population...some of the best pvp and memorable gaming moments I have ever had. Not only that but the game stuck around for years.

I never said that WoW was fair or balanced, I pointed out it was in the "remotely competitive area" and that it has PvP mechanics more similar to MOBA than what TES:O has to offer. (collision, Cooldowns, etc.)

You cannot compare Mass PvP raid objectives with instanced mini objectives "shooter like maps" in WoW.
Small scale PvP as an option is ok but if a game cannot offer Mass PvP like ESO or DAOC its questionable for an MMO.

clay3am513 · July 2015

Rakshat wrote: »

So you're a fresh VR1 and you want to be on equal standing as a full legendary VR14? lol, WHAT?

Nah. Maybe just play with other people comparable? Like I've been doing for the last 40 levels.

GreySix · July 2015

Here's a crazy thought: How about making separate instances that are gated to certain levels, as happens for those below VR1 now. Here's a way:

Zone Newbie: VR1 to VR 5 players only
Zone Gettin'There: VR6 to VR10 players only
Zone Almost'Good: VR11 to VR13 players only
Zone IEatSandpaper4B'fast: VR14 players and up (including Tryhards with gobs of CP)

That way, the Tryhards would still be able to mercilessly gank and stomp new VR14 players, and all the others well below them would be on a much more even playing field.

Thoughts?

Laggus · July 2015

GreySix wrote: »

Here's a crazy thought: How about making separate instances that are gated to certain levels, as happens for those below VR1 now. Here's a way:
Zone Newbie: VR1 to VR 5 players only

Zone Gettin'There: VR6 to VR10 players only

Zone Almost'Good: VR11 to VR13 players only

Zone IEatSandpaper4B'fast: VR14 players and up (including Tryhards with gobs of CP)

That way, the Tryhards would still be able to mercilessly gank and stomp new VR14 players, and all the others well below them would be on a much more even playing field.

Thoughts?

When all of the VR1-VR13 get to VR14 all they can look forward to is getting ganked and stomped by the existing VR14 with 900 plus CPs. Most will never be able to catch up as everyone is still making CPs.

New PvP'rs will just have no motivation to continue and PvP must have new blood to maintain growth.

GreySix · July 2015

Laggus wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Here's a crazy thought: How about making separate instances that are gated to certain levels, as happens for those below VR1 now. Here's a way:
Zone Newbie: VR1 to VR 5 players only

Zone Gettin'There: VR6 to VR10 players only

Zone Almost'Good: VR11 to VR13 players only

Zone IEatSandpaper4B'fast: VR14 players and up (including Tryhards with gobs of CP)

That way, the Tryhards would still be able to mercilessly gank and stomp new VR14 players, and all the others well below them would be on a much more even playing field.

Thoughts?

When all of the VR1-VR13 get to VR14 all they can look forward to is getting ganked and stomped by the existing VR14 with 900 plus CPs. Most will never be able to catch up as everyone is still making CPs.

New PvP'rs will just have no motivation to continue and PvP must have new blood to maintain growth.

... while as is, they get ganked and stomped by existing VR14 with 900 plus CPs as soon as they hit VR1. What I propose is a happy medium that currently simply does not exist at all ... well, vice abandoning any and all VR-level characters for PvP purposes to go to kiddie land.

Phoenix99 · July 2015

GreySix wrote: »

Laggus wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Here's a crazy thought: How about making separate instances that are gated to certain levels, as happens for those below VR1 now. Here's a way:
Zone Newbie: VR1 to VR 5 players only

Zone Gettin'There: VR6 to VR10 players only

Zone Almost'Good: VR11 to VR13 players only

Zone IEatSandpaper4B'fast: VR14 players and up (including Tryhards with gobs of CP)

That way, the Tryhards would still be able to mercilessly gank and stomp new VR14 players, and all the others well below them would be on a much more even playing field.

Thoughts?

When all of the VR1-VR13 get to VR14 all they can look forward to is getting ganked and stomped by the existing VR14 with 900 plus CPs. Most will never be able to catch up as everyone is still making CPs.

New PvP'rs will just have no motivation to continue and PvP must have new blood to maintain growth.

... while as is, they get ganked and stomped by existing VR14 with 900 plus CPs as soon as they hit VR1. What I propose is a happy medium that currently simply does not exist at all ... well, vice abandoning any and all VR-level characters for PvP purposes to go to kiddie land.

Kiddie land is for those, who rely on no-life grind to give them superiority. True competitive gamer will never be afraid to PvP on equal ground with a newcomer, because he will have the player's skill advantage... Admitting that you NEED to keep that grind advantage is just admitting that you are nothing but a scrub afraid of real PvP engagement.

Keep the grind relevant in PvE, tone down to minimum the grind relevance in PvP... without that, you will get your DAoC with 400 PvP players and 4000 players total (including PvE) in peak hours.. good luck, then you will most likely suffer no lag.

marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO · July 2015

Level 36 new player here...

Even though I don't understand most of the end game content since I am so new I
can see how new players can get frustrated. Since this game borrowed ideas from
other PVP mmos like GUild Wars 2 they need to take come cues from those games
and not make PVP so frustrating.

If one thing can keep me engaged in this game for long time is PVP but at this point I haven't
even tried it but after hearing that the best PVP is between now and 50 I might give it a try but
I have no desire to enter the veteran campaign in PVP no desire at all.

GreyPilgrim · July 2015

reften wrote: »

I didn't touch PvP till V14...stay away till than.

Yeah, but it used to not be this way. Seriously, back in 1.4 I was VR8 and competitive in this games pvp. Now I'm VR14, and because I don't have a stack of shields, and didn't grind nirnhoned, I die instantly when somebody even looks at me. Were there problems during 1.4? oh yeah. but I could still have fun and stay alive on the battlefield without having to forever grind the best gear, and have a degree in math to figure out the only build that would keep me alive.

So while I agree that MMO's are generally hard to balance for pvp play, this has become extremely ridiculous since 2.0. Personally, I went back and created a new toon just to play on the non-vet server, so that I have a chance of surviving more than 10 seconds at a time.

And, really, am I gonna pay money for a new pvp area when the one we have is basically not fun to play on? Please... If they don't rebalance this mess significantly, I sure as hail not going to spend money on more broken pvp.

Rhakon · July 2015

THIS!

washlov wrote: »

champions system is slowly killing PVP it destroys the little rest of the balance

pvp should be as fair as possible not a 24/7 farm to success

Juraigr · July 2015

Oughash wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Well a lot of us called it when the Champion System was announced, that the gap between future new players and old-timers will be too high to bridge. Thus frustrating the new players hugely.

Take a new inexperienced player with a v1 character, 0 CPs and some crafted sets. Now put him against an experienced player with legendary end-game sets, 300 CPs and all the Undaunted and Alliance War passives and skills.

The gap is not just big, it's huge and it's only going to increase. Hence why I thought that 1.5 did need tweaks but it was closer to balance compare to what we have now.

Plus while PvP was laggy in 1.5 it was somehow better than it is now, surprisingly. There are more zergs and more lag making it a torture to play at primetime.

Agreed completely here. In fact, most of us (veterans) predicted a widening gap between new players and established players. I actually (cynically) think that what they are going to do is simply remove veteran ranks w/o any recompense.

Called this from day 1 as soon as I saw it

Dr34dly · July 2015

HAHA these ppl complaining bout the gap probably would get wrecked even if they were VR14.
ADJUST, KNOW WHEN TO PULL BACK, STICK TOGETHER, AND IF U DIE DIE FIGHTING.

Its like nobody can just play and adept to what a game offers and take a L if it goes that way.... Its always fault of developers and flaws in the game.... so they alter the game and the game gets broken for real.

''Dont hate the player, hate the game.'' <

some ppl take this *** too serious , STEP YA GAME UP !
Or enjoy playing, and dont act like winning is the only thing worth enjoying.

c.j.powers_ESO · August 2015

I understand both sides of this debate.

However, my opinion is that the problem is still in the design. Not just of this game, but nearly every other MMO game that includes pvp combat. And it isn't just restricted to pvp combat, but to the entire way MMO games are presented. You can't please everyone all the time right? No, you sure can't. Especially when you don't really try to think outside the box. ESO borrowed many of it's ideas from other games, which is fairly common in the industry. And because of this, like every other game, the problems still remain and often are the same.

Some mentioned several pvp zones to allow those closer in levels to compete with each other. This is a great idea and DAoC used instanced battlegrounds to make this fun. It's like a bandaid. Still doesn't solve the core problems, but makes some more people happy.

I could go on for a bit, but nothing really matters. Until a game company steps up and breaks all the rules and presents players with an experience that works well regardless of how it is done, we get to deal with the same garbage with every...single....MMO that comes out. Since EQ, years ago, I can't imagine why it hasn't happened yet, but it will have to, eventually!

I personally don't pvp anymore. I enjoy the effort they made in the core game...the stories, the locations, but don't feel I'll ever be satisfied with investing too much time into it other than a few days a month, if that.