Stamina Sorcerer issues with proposed changes to help stam synergize with sorc

TBois · July 2015

Every stamina sorcerer (I only really PVP, so these are PVP stam sorcs) I know is not in favor of the proposed changes for stamina sorcerers scheduled for the 1.7 patch. The proposed changes being:
- A Lightning Form stamina morph that has increased AOE damage
- Some kind of change to Dark Deal, maybe making it return stamina quicker
- I will add the nerf to Bolt Escape

They have not stated which morph they will change for the Lightning Form stamina morph. Currently there is Thundering Presence and Boundless Storm. They give a longer duration and an increase in movement speed, respectively. I think that they will change Thundering Presence as it seems to be the less used morph. If this is the case, stam sorcs will have to choose between damage and mobility. Since mobility is the backbone of most stam sorc builds these days, most will chose Boundless Storm still. ZOS will replace an infrequently used morph with another infrequently used morph. Another issue is why are you changing a skill that stam sorcs currently use very frequently. What we need is more sorc skills that are viable in our builds. We don't need replacements for skills that we already use.

The Dark Deal change is also no good, as using the skill is just asking to be interrupted in most fights. Since most stamina weapons are melee range, thats an even easier interrupt for a stamina sorcerer. This base skill is just garbage. I don't see many magicka sorcs using it either, like no one uses this skill anymore. If the skill is changed to insta cast I would use it, but that's probably the only way.

Currently I can only Bolt Escape three times in a row with a full mana pool, creating distance with the way charges root you for a sec is very difficult as a stamina sorc. Using Bolt Escape helps a lot, and as I said earlier mobility is the backbone of this play style. After the patch I suspect I will only be able to use it twice, making it almost useless (just good for CC or absorbing stuff) in a fight where I'm trying to keep up my other magicka utility skills.

It seems that ZOS doesn't know about how unhappy stamina sorcerer's are about the changes; or they are too far along to switch up what the combat team is planning. There were many posts in the PVP Combat & Skills forum about these issues after the AMA that originally release the proposed changes. These changes were then reiterated in ESO live weeks later. I hope the combat team is considering more or different changes than was stated. Maybe going through with the proposed changes but also changing some passives would be the best course of action for 1.7 at this point, as it won't affect any more magicka sorcerer builds than the proposed changes would. Here are a couple of suggestions by Saulo, who is a great stamina sorcerer.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert Seen y'all around here, hoping this information gets relayed to combat team

skillastatb16_ESO wrote: »

Then what does Stam Sorc builds need ?
Stamina based passives:

Here is quick things I thought, maybe not the solution but that would be a start

Class Skills -> Dark Magic -> Exploitation passive ability (Activating a Dark Magic ability grants Minor Prophecy to nearby allies, increasing Spell Critical by [X amount] for 20 seconds.)

This passive should grant me Weapon Critical as well.

Class Skills -> Storm Calling -> Expert Mage passive ability (Increases spell power by 2% for each Sorcerer ability slotted.)

This passive should grant me Weapon Damage as well.

The links below are also in my signature. Hopefully I will change the signature in the future. So I am putting them in this post too. These are threads with discussion from people who actually PVP and play as stam sorcs about the proposed changes and aboiut what we would like to see for this class/resource combo in the future.

Consensus from people who play Stamina Sorcerers that the proposed changes will do nothing to help viability of this play style
More discussion with proposed changes from the community that most stamina sorcerer's agree would be better than ZOS's proposed changes
A suggestion for a change to the crystal blast morph to make it stam based melee ability

Djeriko · July 2015

sixuponthelot wrote: »

They have not stated which morph they will change for the Lightning Form stamina morph. Currently there is Thundering Presence and Boundless Storm. They give a longer duration and an increase in movement speed, respectively. I think that they will change Thundering Presence as it seems to be the less used morph. If this is the case, stam sorcs will have to choose between damage and mobility. Since mobility is the backbone of most stam sorc builds these days, most will chose Boundless Storm still. ZOS will replace an infrequently used morph with another infrequently used morph. Another issue is why are you changing a skill that stam sorcs currently use very frequently. What we need is more sorc skills that are viable in our builds. We don't need replacements for skills that we already use.

The Dark Deal change is also no good, as using the skill is just asking to be interrupted in most fights. Since most stamina weapons are melee range, thats an even easier interrupt for a stamina sorcerer. This base skill is just garbage. I don't see many magicka sorcs using it either, like no one uses this skill anymore. If the skill is changed to insta cast I would use it, but that's probably the only way.

I agree that Dark Deal needs to be made insta cast, maybe a hot to which ever stat it heals but I disagree that Thundering Presence should be the stamina based one. I actually prefer that one to stay magicka based because it lasts longer compared to just a 6 second boost to speed that would be wasted on my build. If it does go stamina I'll be crushed but I'll adapt just like when they made the dk ability unstable flames stamina based. (Still hurt over that but gotta roll with the punches)

CP5 · July 2015

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I just want to add in we've been waiting since February for feedback and have received no information about what the combat team has planned for that time. Eric seemed to hint that there will be plenty of changes to the classes in the next update so could they please at least share some of what they have in store? At this current rate I feel like I am being ignored completely and recent ESO Live episodes haven't helped that.

Speaking of those shows (was going to make a rant but i'll shorten it and post my thoughts here). Three of the past shows when Eric goes on to discuss class balance the sorcerer's seem to be an afterthought. Always coming in last, their talk always prefaced with a heavy nerf then a seemingly half-hearted "but we're doing this minor thing" to wrap it up.

Pre 1.6 when the other classes were getting new skills an the show turned to sorcerers all we got was "We're buffing pets, but don't worry, we buffed them so much that we're nerfing them before pts!" Then while 1.6 was on pts Eric was very enthusiastic about how much they nerfed negate, but don't worry, its 10% cheaper now! And then with this most recent ESO Live he started, as the first nerf talked about on the show, about how bolt escape would get nerfed again rather than addressing the infinite resource problem, but at least lightning form will do more damage.

I'm just saying that as of now the combat team has shown little communication or interest in addressing the problems the community has found and we need something. Please, just get word their way, at this point i'm not waiting anymore, just looking to see if they have decided to say anything at all...

Torbschka · July 2015

They will also reduce the costs of critical surge and increase their duration

well, i think u have to use BE more tactical, the concerns about the stam verson of LF - well, we dont know exactly how it will look, maybe it will also add crit/stam/whatever.

I like the changes overall, especially the dodge roll nerf, -50% dmg etc., makes it all more tactical -> maybe the mobility of stam sorcs will help and we need kind of hybrid build

TBois · July 2015

Torbschka wrote: »

They will also reduce the costs of critical surge and increase their duration

well, i think u have to use BE more tactical, the concerns about the stam verson of LF - well, we dont know exactly how it will look, maybe it will also add crit/stam/whatever.

I like the changes overall, especially the dodge roll nerf, -50% dmg etc., makes it all more tactical -> maybe the mobility of stam sorcs will help and we need kind of hybrid build

The crit surge heal is so unpredictable these days. I haven't considered it in a build in so long that I forgot about it. Unless they change the way the heal works again. The proposed change is moot.

Torbschka · July 2015

What doesnt work with that skill, cause my first char ever is a stamina sorc and i tried to focus my build around critical surge?

does it not work as intended?

TBois · July 2015

It used to heal off all critical attacks. Now it has a cooldown of .25 seconds (I think it's .25 and it even was 1 second at some point). So if it heals with a crit for boundless storm and then you wrecking blow crits. You won't get the heal from the big wrecking blow damage.

Torbschka · July 2015

so, maybe a stam build without boundless storm would be useful? Is it to hard without the resistances?

TBois · July 2015

If that's how you want to make it go ahead. I prefer to have boundless storm

Edit: Boundless Storm is very strong. The resistances are a great help with survivability and most PVP stamina sorcs builds are focusing on mobility at the moment, since heals are lacking. So the skill plays a key role in those builds. As far as the heal cooldown for crit surge, the same could be said about a light attack weave or any other attack that is lower than the attack that would give you the greatest heal. Most people like to have greater control with their healing than the skill offers at the moment.

Erock25 · July 2015

My Sorc has 36 days played and I have spent about equal time in both stamina and magicka spec .... but much more time in magicka spec since the soft caps were removed. Here are some quick observations on the pieces of information we have so far and some suggestions that I think are absolute necessities.

Dark Deal getting a buff

Dark Deal is just all around bad and as long as it stays a channel, it will forever be useless for stamina build. The melee nature of stamina builds makes the use of Dark Deal a waste of time, in both PVP and PVE. Sorcs really need a means of regaining stamina, but the channel is what kills it. Please make it instant cast or change it in some way that allows the Sorc to use it in the thick of combat.
Stamina based Lightning Form morph

Boundless Storm is probably the most used Sorc ability for stamina builds in PVP currently. It is also a favorite of a lot of magicka builds. If you make Boundless Storm the stamina morph, magicka sorcs will be very upset. If you keep Boundless Storm as the magicka morph, stamina Sorcs will continue to use Boundless instead. The best solution that keeps everyone happy is putting the speed buff on the base ability and change Boundless to stamina morph.
Improvement to Critical Surge

I have not seen a ZOS employee mentioning this but have seen it pop up enough on the forums already that I think it deserves a comment. A cost decrease and duration increase would be welcomed, but with the current power of 2h weapons, Critical Surge will always be overlooked for Rally. Rally's heals are more consistent and reliable. I suggest you decrease the internal cool down to 0.1 second from 0.25 to continue to prevent AOE from massively healing a Sorc but allow more instances where multiple overlapping damage sources do not ruin your heals.
Bolt Escape stacking cost increase

I think most people can agree that the only time they feel Bolt Escape is abused is if a Sorc uses it 5-10+ times in a row to completely disengage from a fight. I think the stacking increase should at least be decreased to 33% instead of 50%. That way three consecutive Bolt Escapes cost the exact same amount as they do now. This will even help the Stam Sorc that may relegate themselves to only using Bolt Escape twice in a row.
Sorc passives need some more stamina love

There just aren't enough positives for a Stamina Sorc in our list of passives. The OP brings up two great examples where Exploitation and Expert Mage are both useless for a Stamina Sorc.
Stamina Sorc needs one direct damage stamina moprh

A stamina morph of Lightning Form almost solves this issue, but it is too passive and basically just a buff you have to keep running. My personal favorite suggestion is changing Crystal Blast to a melee version of Crystal Frag. Melee range, hard hitting, 35% chance to proc instant on stamina ability use. Crystal Frag is a very important game play mechanic that is used in all aspects of the Magicka Sorc, and bringing over this style to Stam Sorc as well would really make it feel like you are playing a Sorc still and not a generic 2h warrior.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · July 2015

I'm not entirely sure where this 'general consensus' comes from. While I agree that changes need to be made to some under used or poorly performing abilities, not every sorc is on the sky is falling wagon.

I cannot think of anyone off the top of my head who uses Thundering Presence. I remember one person mentioning it in their build it didn't rely a great deal on magicka, so for them it was beneficial to have the extra time over speed. I would like for them to increase the armor/resistances gained a smidgin tho, as well as increase the damage. Honestly, triple digits is a kitten whisker tickle compared to the mana pools people are rocking these days. In PVE I'll occasionally roast a crocodile or welwa with the disintegration passive, but in PVP it's mostly just for the speed as well as resistances. Maybe not make it stam cost based, just scale off of highest stat perhaps and add increased resitances/dmg to presence and increase the duration of Boundless' speed by a couple seconds.

The biggest problem I see with sorcs is that they've been pidgeonholed into playing a handful of viable specs because those ARE the only 'viable specs' and proposed changes have people convinced that ZOS hates their class. I play a spec I like not because I can go on 200+ unbroken kill streaks but because I LIKE it, and I'd like it to be given a fair shake and not perform so badly because I don't use the same cookie-cutter setup as every other rank 40+ sorc.

Dark Deal definitely should be changed into a hot of some kind, either that or return more for its cost. I get its trying to emulate Equilibrium from Skyrim or the old Restore Fatigue spells from older ES games, but NPC mobs operate much differently there than in ESO where you have mobs that can close distances intelligently or perform interrupts, or Players who can easily break out of snares. Maybe add a cast timer to it where you can stop and go with small bursts between attacks to replenish your resources.

BE. I hate this skill. I hate it so much I refuse to use it at all, so I can't comment on it besides saying that I've seen some players use it very creatively in builds where they will take it just as readily as they dish it out, and others run away like schoolyard sissies and claim it's for 'survivability'.

I've never used crystal shard or any of its morphs at all, mostly because I see everyone and their mom using it. When I'm running a stam spec I aim to use sorc abilities to supplement my damage and utility such as shattering prison for snares and Bound Armaments for dmg. If I'm dealing damage I expect to use weapon abilities. I wouldn't object to a close range burst that would synergize well with melee, but it'd be tricky to work with with the limited bar space and so much that is integral to my setup.

The internal cd on Surge is kind of dumb. If DK's can heal themselves ad nauseum, or temps, or NB's, then why not sorcs? The point of no cooldowns is that resources have to be exhausted first. Throw the cooldown in the garbage and just bump the cost some. Or make it the self heal sorcs have been yammering about for months, make it a burst heal that adds weapon/spell crit/dmg.

Stormie: can you PLEASE make this guy not stunnable/knockdownable? I think its kind of dumb that NPC stormies are immune to stuns but mine can get dropped like a pancake by a little bitty clannfear. Except for one time where I saw a AD guild rolling around with sorcs leading the charge and dropping stormies simultaneously, I just don't see them used a great deal. They don't seem to do that much damage and they're too easily CCed. Meanwhile DK's can melt enemies like butter with an INVULNERABLE standard, NB's can suck life with an INVULNERABLE vampire pool of death, and temps can flatten people with an INVULNERABLE glowy swirly orb.

Pets: I think they could use some love. As much as ZOS tried to nerf everything else to make pets look more appetizing, they're not, and only new players or PVEers still use them. Occasionally I'll see them in PVP, but very rarely. Balance shouldn't involve making everything else suck then telling people to use what YOU want, but making everything that sucks look more appetizing so you think "Hrm...you know I might wanna try that".

I still want to summon a *** dremora lord one of these days, but that's still on the back burner afaik.

I remember there was a player who first started using stam sorc setups. I'm not sure if she still plays anymore, last I checked on her channel she had not updated any ESO videos for a long time, at least since last year. Alot of the abilities she used ended up getting the nerf hammer in 1.5 I believe, but I've seen other sorcs continue to build up on that style. I would like to see sorcs be able to sport a wider range of viable builds.

TBois · July 2015

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure where this 'general consensus' comes from. While I agree that changes need to be made to some under used or poorly performing abilities, not every sorc is on the sky is falling wagon

The general consensus came from the discussions in the previous threads about this topic in the PVP Combat & Skills forum. They are linked in the original post. It seems you can be added to that consensus. ZOS is looking to buff stamina sorcerers with these changes, but their proposed changes don't seem to excite you or anyone else for that matter. I hope the concerns expressed in this thread will be addressed in a future patch. I wanted that to be the 1.7 patch, but it seems we will have to wait for the changes that will help make stam sorcs a stronger class/resource combo and increase sorc build diversity overall.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · July 2015

sixuponthelot wrote: »

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure where this 'general consensus' comes from. While I agree that changes need to be made to some under used or poorly performing abilities, not every sorc is on the sky is falling wagon

The general consensus came from the discussions in the previous threads about this topic in the PVP Combat & Skills forum. They are linked in the original post. It seems you can be added to that consensus. ZOS is looking to buff stamina sorcerers with these changes, but their proposed changes don't seem to excite you or anyone else for that matter. I hope the concerns expressed in this thread will be addressed in a future patch. I wanted that to be the 1.7 patch, but it seems we will have to wait for the changes that will help make stam sorcs a stronger class/resource combo and increase sorc build diversity overall.

I am of the consensus that sorc could use some diversification. I am not of the consensus that everything proposed is going to irreversibly cripple the class in PVP or PVE like some sorcs have been going off on for the past week or so. People said 1.5 would kill the game and threatened to quit. They didn't. People said 1.6 would kill the game and threatened to quit then tried to bully everyone else into doing it to. They didn't. The same thing is going on with 1.7 and people need to realize how young this game is and that things are going to change, and they should change. Not everyone agrees on how, just not like everyone agrees that BE is perfectly acceptable to use in combat ad infinitum. I imagine a fresh firestorm will whip up as soon as more details are given next week, but the thing is champ system and legerdemain didn't go thorugh vast sweeping changes over PTS. Not only that console rush severely hampered things for everyone. People have been asking for changes for a long time, both nerfs and buffs, and now that they're being actively discussed by developers in more open communication, something players have been demanding more lately, again i see people foaming at the mouth over nothing. I'm not one of them.

ZOS_RichLambert · July 2015

/lurk

Manoekin · July 2015

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

/lurk

@ZOS_RichLurkbert

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Djeriko wrote: »

sixuponthelot wrote: »

They have not stated which morph they will change for the Lightning Form stamina morph. Currently there is Thundering Presence and Boundless Storm. They give a longer duration and an increase in movement speed, respectively. I think that they will change Thundering Presence as it seems to be the less used morph. If this is the case, stam sorcs will have to choose between damage and mobility. Since mobility is the backbone of most stam sorc builds these days, most will chose Boundless Storm still. ZOS will replace an infrequently used morph with another infrequently used morph. Another issue is why are you changing a skill that stam sorcs currently use very frequently. What we need is more sorc skills that are viable in our builds. We don't need replacements for skills that we already use.

The Dark Deal change is also no good, as using the skill is just asking to be interrupted in most fights. Since most stamina weapons are melee range, thats an even easier interrupt for a stamina sorcerer. This base skill is just garbage. I don't see many magicka sorcs using it either, like no one uses this skill anymore. If the skill is changed to insta cast I would use it, but that's probably the only way.

I agree that Dark Deal needs to be made insta cast, maybe a hot to which ever stat it heals but I disagree that Thundering Presence should be the stamina based one. I actually prefer that one to stay magicka based because it lasts longer compared to just a 6 second boost to speed that would be wasted on my build. If it does go stamina I'll be crushed but I'll adapt just like when they made the dk ability unstable flames stamina based. (Still hurt over that but gotta roll with the punches)

I would hate all of these changes as a magicka sorc. Boundless storm gives 7.5 seconds of a major speed buff which is great for repositioning or kiting. (are you just looking at skill calculator sites? It isn't 6 seconds at max). Thunderous presence is the logical morph to change since in stam builds we get multiple gap closer options in the weapon lines. If magicka is an issue for someone as a stam build, so what everyone else does for a mag build and throw a few champion points in cost reduction and a jewelry glyph. All 3 damage ones only account for barely more than a set bonus combined, anyway

. In pvp it's a non factor... In pve one cost reduction can make a big difference in changing a good but resourced starved build into a useful one.

Crystal blast is good in group play in Cyrodiil as a very hard hitting ranged aoe combo along with liquid lightning and velocious curse... Why change a ranged nuke to have one of its morphs be melee? Dark deal would become hysterically overpowered if it became a simple one off cast with the effect over time and no channel plus, it would kill the point of it as a situational recovery tool that combines well with sets like Cyrodiil's light just like for Templars, the 5pc which gives a 25 percent flat incoming damage reduction while casting or channeling.

Being subject to interruption is what makes it balanced. You don't stop and use it while someone's hitting you you stun them or Los, and then channel a tick or two or three depending on how much time you have. It also gives you the crit buff for even one tick if you aren't using other dark magic skills much, , for you and your group.

Regarding passives, the physical crit buff is on Nightblades. Sorcs have spellcrit. DK gets weapon power. Templar gets spell power. These aren't self buffs. They go out to your entire group.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure where this 'general consensus' comes from. While I agree that changes need to be made to some under used or poorly performing abilities, not every sorc is on the sky is falling wagon.

I cannot think of anyone off the top of my head who uses Thundering Presence. I remember one person mentioning it in their build it didn't rely a great deal on magicka, so for them it was beneficial to have the extra time over speed. I would like for them to increase the armor/resistances gained a smidgin tho, as well as increase the damage. Honestly, triple digits is a kitten whisker tickle compared to the mana pools people are rocking these days. In PVE I'll occasionally roast a crocodile or welwa with the disintegration passive, but in PVP it's mostly just for the speed as well as resistances. Maybe not make it stam cost based, just scale off of highest stat perhaps and add increased resitances/dmg to presence and increase the duration of Boundless' speed by a couple seconds.

The biggest problem I see with sorcs is that they've been pidgeonholed into playing a handful of viable specs because those ARE the only 'viable specs' and proposed changes have people convinced that ZOS hates their class. I play a spec I like not because I can go on 200+ unbroken kill streaks but because I LIKE it, and I'd like it to be given a fair shake and not perform so badly because I don't use the same cookie-cutter setup as every other rank 40+ sorc.

Dark Deal definitely should be changed into a hot of some kind, either that or return more for its cost. I get its trying to emulate Equilibrium from Skyrim or the old Restore Fatigue spells from older ES games, but NPC mobs operate much differently there than in ESO where you have mobs that can close distances intelligently or perform interrupts, or Players who can easily break out of snares. Maybe add a cast timer to it where you can stop and go with small bursts between attacks to replenish your resources.

BE. I hate this skill. I hate it so much I refuse to use it at all, so I can't comment on it besides saying that I've seen some players use it very creatively in builds where they will take it just as readily as they dish it out, and others run away like schoolyard sissies and claim it's for 'survivability'.

I've never used crystal shard or any of its morphs at all, mostly because I see everyone and their mom using it. When I'm running a stam spec I aim to use sorc abilities to supplement my damage and utility such as shattering prison for snares and Bound Armaments for dmg. If I'm dealing damage I expect to use weapon abilities. I wouldn't object to a close range burst that would synergize well with melee, but it'd be tricky to work with with the limited bar space and so much that is integral to my setup.

The internal cd on Surge is kind of dumb. If DK's can heal themselves ad nauseum, or temps, or NB's, then why not sorcs? The point of no cooldowns is that resources have to be exhausted first. Throw the cooldown in the garbage and just bump the cost some. Or make it the self heal sorcs have been yammering about for months, make it a burst heal that adds weapon/spell crit/dmg.

Stormie: can you PLEASE make this guy not stunnable/knockdownable? I think its kind of dumb that NPC stormies are immune to stuns but mine can get dropped like a pancake by a little bitty clannfear. Except for one time where I saw a AD guild rolling around with sorcs leading the charge and dropping stormies simultaneously, I just don't see them used a great deal. They don't seem to do that much damage and they're too easily CCed. Meanwhile DK's can melt enemies like butter with an INVULNERABLE standard, NB's can suck life with an INVULNERABLE vampire pool of death, and temps can flatten people with an INVULNERABLE glowy swirly orb.

Pets: I think they could use some love. As much as ZOS tried to nerf everything else to make pets look more appetizing, they're not, and only new players or PVEers still use them. Occasionally I'll see them in PVP, but very rarely. Balance shouldn't involve making everything else suck then telling people to use what YOU want, but making everything that sucks look more appetizing so you think "Hrm...you know I might wanna try that".

I still want to summon a *** dremora lord one of these days, but that's still on the back burner afaik.

I remember there was a player who first started using stam sorc setups. I'm not sure if she still plays anymore, last I checked on her channel she had not updated any ESO videos for a long time, at least since last year. Alot of the abilities she used ended up getting the nerf hammer in 1.5 I believe, but I've seen other sorcs continue to build up on that style. I would like to see sorcs be able to sport a wider range of viable builds.

Good feedback, while I don't agree with all of it, I can see where you're coming from

.

Dark deal already works that way and can be cancelled between any of its ticks at will.

Bolt escape and morphs both have huge utility in group and solo play. Ball of lightning gives protection to you and any allies it is near, and fan be used as a deterrent when healing or as a quick help when mainly damaging. Streak is a moderate damage hit stuns and disrupts the enemylines, and gets you in tthere for aoe. Can also stun people off of you or your healers use it to get out of Los to avoid focused fire on you.

Crystal blast has good use as I said in my last post while frag is useful for extra burst, and for tagging an unaware enemy even without the proc. Goes great on someone who just popped on someone next to you

and as a damage back load combined with curse and ice reach. Hit them and sstun right as the curse is applied then root hits a sec later

.

Atronarch is incredibly high damage in aoe with its morph for charged Atronarch and a group mate can tag it with the synergy for a nice damage buff for it and themselves. It is much higher dps than the other ultimates you mentioned and fan benefit from your empowered ward to boot. Also stuns with a big hit on impact and can be commanded to single target channel on an out of range enemy. I feel its downside is balanced.

Summoned pets should only need to be on one bar... Pet builds could be viable and great options if not for bar slot starvation when using them and even just empowered ward, to make them good. At worst they could be turned into timed summons that last a 45 second or so stretch, but they were much more feasible in beta when not needing to be on every skill bar including overload to stay active. I also would like to see an on death effect added for the morphs of the winged twilight's.

Erock25 · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Djeriko wrote: »

sixuponthelot wrote: »

They have not stated which morph they will change for the Lightning Form stamina morph. Currently there is Thundering Presence and Boundless Storm. They give a longer duration and an increase in movement speed, respectively. I think that they will change Thundering Presence as it seems to be the less used morph. If this is the case, stam sorcs will have to choose between damage and mobility. Since mobility is the backbone of most stam sorc builds these days, most will chose Boundless Storm still. ZOS will replace an infrequently used morph with another infrequently used morph. Another issue is why are you changing a skill that stam sorcs currently use very frequently. What we need is more sorc skills that are viable in our builds. We don't need replacements for skills that we already use.

The Dark Deal change is also no good, as using the skill is just asking to be interrupted in most fights. Since most stamina weapons are melee range, thats an even easier interrupt for a stamina sorcerer. This base skill is just garbage. I don't see many magicka sorcs using it either, like no one uses this skill anymore. If the skill is changed to insta cast I would use it, but that's probably the only way.

I agree that Dark Deal needs to be made insta cast, maybe a hot to which ever stat it heals but I disagree that Thundering Presence should be the stamina based one. I actually prefer that one to stay magicka based because it lasts longer compared to just a 6 second boost to speed that would be wasted on my build. If it does go stamina I'll be crushed but I'll adapt just like when they made the dk ability unstable flames stamina based. (Still hurt over that but gotta roll with the punches)

I would hate all of these changes as a magicka sorc. Boundless storm gives 7.5 seconds of a major speed buff which is great for repositioning or kiting. (are you just looking at skill calculator sites? It isn't 6 seconds at max). Thunderous presence is the logical morph to change since in stam builds we get multiple gap closer options in the weapon lines. If magicka is an issue for someone as a stam build, so what everyone else does for a mag build and throw a few champion points in cost reduction and a jewelry glyph. All 3 damage ones only account for barely more than a set bonus combined, anyway . In pvp it's a non factor... In pve one cost reduction can make a big difference in changing a good but resourced starved build into a useful one.

Crystal blast is good in group play in Cyrodiil as a very hard hitting ranged aoe combo along with liquid lightning and velocious curse... Why change a ranged nuke to have one of its morphs be melee? Dark deal would become hysterically overpowered if it became a simple one off cast with the effect over time and no channel plus, it would kill the point of it as a situational recovery tool that combines well with sets like Cyrodiil's light just like for Templars, the 5pc which gives a 25 percent flat incoming damage reduction while casting or channeling. Being subject to interruption is what makes it balanced. You don't stop and use it while someone's hitting you you stun them or Los, and then channel a tick or two or three depending on how much time you have. It also gives you the crit buff for even one tick if you aren't using other dark magic skills much, , for you and your group.

Regarding passives, the physical crit buff is on Nightblades. Sorcs have spellcrit. DK gets weapon power. Templar gets spell power. These aren't self buffs. They go out to your entire group.

I'll never understand why you hate Sorc so much.

You are in here saying Crystal Blast is good and don't change it? What a joke.

Dark Deal would be HYSTERICALLY OVERPOWERED if it became a one off cast. Yeah that is a great reason to keep the currently pointless stamina version one.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Djeriko wrote: »

sixuponthelot wrote: »

They have not stated which morph they will change for the Lightning Form stamina morph. Currently there is Thundering Presence and Boundless Storm. They give a longer duration and an increase in movement speed, respectively. I think that they will change Thundering Presence as it seems to be the less used morph. If this is the case, stam sorcs will have to choose between damage and mobility. Since mobility is the backbone of most stam sorc builds these days, most will chose Boundless Storm still. ZOS will replace an infrequently used morph with another infrequently used morph. Another issue is why are you changing a skill that stam sorcs currently use very frequently. What we need is more sorc skills that are viable in our builds. We don't need replacements for skills that we already use.

The Dark Deal change is also no good, as using the skill is just asking to be interrupted in most fights. Since most stamina weapons are melee range, thats an even easier interrupt for a stamina sorcerer. This base skill is just garbage. I don't see many magicka sorcs using it either, like no one uses this skill anymore. If the skill is changed to insta cast I would use it, but that's probably the only way.

I agree that Dark Deal needs to be made insta cast, maybe a hot to which ever stat it heals but I disagree that Thundering Presence should be the stamina based one. I actually prefer that one to stay magicka based because it lasts longer compared to just a 6 second boost to speed that would be wasted on my build. If it does go stamina I'll be crushed but I'll adapt just like when they made the dk ability unstable flames stamina based. (Still hurt over that but gotta roll with the punches)

I would hate all of these changes as a magicka sorc. Boundless storm gives 7.5 seconds of a major speed buff which is great for repositioning or kiting. (are you just looking at skill calculator sites? It isn't 6 seconds at max). Thunderous presence is the logical morph to change since in stam builds we get multiple gap closer options in the weapon lines. If magicka is an issue for someone as a stam build, so what everyone else does for a mag build and throw a few champion points in cost reduction and a jewelry glyph. All 3 damage ones only account for barely more than a set bonus combined, anyway . In pvp it's a non factor... In pve one cost reduction can make a big difference in changing a good but resourced starved build into a useful one.

Crystal blast is good in group play in Cyrodiil as a very hard hitting ranged aoe combo along with liquid lightning and velocious curse... Why change a ranged nuke to have one of its morphs be melee? Dark deal would become hysterically overpowered if it became a simple one off cast with the effect over time and no channel plus, it would kill the point of it as a situational recovery tool that combines well with sets like Cyrodiil's light just like for Templars, the 5pc which gives a 25 percent flat incoming damage reduction while casting or channeling. Being subject to interruption is what makes it balanced. You don't stop and use it while someone's hitting you you stun them or Los, and then channel a tick or two or three depending on how much time you have. It also gives you the crit buff for even one tick if you aren't using other dark magic skills much, , for you and your group.

Regarding passives, the physical crit buff is on Nightblades. Sorcs have spellcrit. DK gets weapon power. Templar gets spell power. These aren't self buffs. They go out to your entire group.

I'll never understand why you hate Sorc so much.

You are in here saying Crystal Blast is good and don't change it? What a joke.

I am a sorc, I love them except the reliance on toggles basically including overload

. My sorc is Don't Nerf Me Bro,

. Do you have something to add...? Blast isn't popular but is useful in some setups but then again, Quick siphon, elemental drain, cleansing purge, and propelling shield aren't very popular either. That hardly changes that they're great. So is dark deal, if you use it as designed instead of, pretty intuitively pointlessly trying to cast it while being attacked

. It's not meant as a direct in combat move but a very powerful one if you can line of sight, cc an enemy, or otherwise get the breathing room to cast a tick or two of it. One extremely simple example is streaking away and stunning, popping dark deal for two ticks inside of about a second and a half, then manually breaking it as the enemy Re engages you, now with more resources and health back

.

Faulgor · July 2015

I still really want to see a Disease/Poison instant cast DoT for Sorcerers, possibly in the Dark Magic tree, with one stamina morph. Something prom the pits of Peryite.
The other morph could complement Sorc Healers ...

CP5 · July 2015

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

/lurk

...

Sacadon · July 2015

Additionally, the excuse/reason provided by Wrobel recently in ESO live regarding uber-toggle builds is just lame. So sorc is the class that gets shorted on skills because some people don't want to work so hard and have pets do the work. Very sad.

So as the OP said, why take away highly used skills? Why don't we kill off one of the pets in lieu of something better?

By the time we hear about what's coming, it's too late for our feedback to really impact direction as most of the dev work is done. This is a crazy old school approach that most orgs have stopped for many good reasons. So ZOS, how about posting your ideas and reasons and let the players weigh in on it before you go code it all?

Erock25 · July 2015

deleted

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Also just to touch on the whole critical/power surge controversy... the 1/4th of a second internal cooldown really doesn't affect much other than huge amounts of aoe dot's going off from us. It still allows for our big attacks to proc it even after a dot recently had, for example (yum when an insta-empowered frag clutch heals as a crit

), and provides a good chunk of healing when aoe'ing (especially in stamina builds since you can spec for the much higher healing percentage of your damage done, as the morph!). Having lowered AOE cap limits with no stat caps as of 1.6, and being able to still aoe spam alongside the higher crit rates we can reach now (impenetrable no longer makes us not crit, it just can lower the damage from our crits) would be extremely broken.

Nearly of the hits on average will crit in a damage-oriented build, minimum, on the sorc factoring in the typical 42% basic spell critical loadout of gear along with the 3% dark magic bonus for a total of 45%, and not using a precise staff (instead having a nirnhoned staff for the extra spell pen along with the Apprentice mundus or in some builds, the Mage for pvp or Atronarch). It used to be the case that most people ran around with 20-50% flat reductions in chance to be critically hit, so it kept this in check when there was no internal cooldown for us. If you had 45% spell crit against someone wearing 50% worth of impenetrable gear... you literally could not critically hit them. Now if you have 45% spell crit... you will critically hit 45% of the time against them, rain or shine.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Additionally, the excuse/reason provided by Wrobel recently in ESO live regarding uber-toggle builds is just lame. So sorc is the class that gets shorted on skills because some people don't want to work so hard and have pets do the work. Very sad.

So as the OP said, why take away highly used skills? Why don't we kill off one of the pets in lieu of something better?

By the time we hear about what's coming, it's too late for our feedback to really impact direction as most of the dev work is done. This is a crazy old school approach that most orgs have stopped for many good reasons. So ZOS, how about posting your ideas and reasons and let the players weigh in on it before you go code it all?

I understand what you're saying but ZOS isn't going to say, Okay, well we're fine with giving people 1/3 of the content we created. Cadwell Silver/Gold is here to stay and besides role playing reasons, I think it is a good mechanic. It is just too damn easy.

It's unfortunately far too easy now, between extreme and repeated nerfing, no difficulty scaling upwards, and player power creep

.

Erock25 · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Sacadon wrote: »

Additionally, the excuse/reason provided by Wrobel recently in ESO live regarding uber-toggle builds is just lame. So sorc is the class that gets shorted on skills because some people don't want to work so hard and have pets do the work. Very sad.

So as the OP said, why take away highly used skills? Why don't we kill off one of the pets in lieu of something better?

By the time we hear about what's coming, it's too late for our feedback to really impact direction as most of the dev work is done. This is a crazy old school approach that most orgs have stopped for many good reasons. So ZOS, how about posting your ideas and reasons and let the players weigh in on it before you go code it all?

I understand what you're saying but ZOS isn't going to say, Okay, well we're fine with giving people 1/3 of the content we created. Cadwell Silver/Gold is here to stay and besides role playing reasons, I think it is a good mechanic. It is just too damn easy.

It's unfortunately far too easy now, between extreme and repeated nerfing, no difficulty scaling upwards, and player power creep .

Oops ... looks like I replied to the wrong topic somehow.

FENGRUSH · July 2015

They dont need to do much to stam sorc. But the proposed changes show if nothing else that the people balancing the game really dont know what theyre doing.

Erock25 · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Also just to touch on the whole critical/power surge controversy... the 1/4th of a second internal cooldown really doesn't affect much other than huge amounts of aoe dot's going off from us. It still allows for our big attacks to proc it even after a dot recently had, for example (yum when an insta-empowered frag clutch heals as a crit ), and provides a good chunk of healing when aoe'ing (especially in stamina builds since you can spec for the much higher healing percentage of your damage done, as the morph!). Having lowered AOE cap limits with no stat caps as of 1.6, and being able to still aoe spam alongside the higher crit rates we can reach now (impenetrable no longer makes us not crit, it just can lower the damage from our crits) would be extremely broken.

Nearly of the hits on average will crit in a damage-oriented build, minimum, on the sorc factoring in the typical 42% basic spell critical loadout of gear along with the 3% dark magic bonus for a total of 45%, and not using a precise staff (instead having a nirnhoned staff for the extra spell pen along with the Apprentice mundus or in some builds, the Mage for pvp or Atronarch). It used to be the case that most people ran around with 20-50% flat reductions in chance to be critically hit, so it kept this in check when there was no internal cooldown for us. If you had 45% spell crit against someone wearing 50% worth of impenetrable gear... you literally could not critically hit them. Now if you have 45% spell crit... you will critically hit 45% of the time against them, rain or shine.

You can't think that purposefully avoiding DOTs so they don't eat up your Surge healing is a good mechanic, can you? I understand the internal cooldown because AOE builds would have some insane healing, but getting those 400 point heals from Boundless Storm while your Wrecking Blow crit for what would be a 7k heal right afterwards is extremely frustrating. Add in the fact that you can not crit a blocking opponent, and for stamina builds, it will always be Rally over Crit Surge.

Not sure why you are talking about spell crit and such in a stamina thread, by the way.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · July 2015

I suggest they add a stamina regen to the stamina mage armor since the class has NO stamina regen buff at all atm.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Also just to touch on the whole critical/power surge controversy... the 1/4th of a second internal cooldown really doesn't affect much other than huge amounts of aoe dot's going off from us. It still allows for our big attacks to proc it even after a dot recently had, for example (yum when an insta-empowered frag clutch heals as a crit ), and provides a good chunk of healing when aoe'ing (especially in stamina builds since you can spec for the much higher healing percentage of your damage done, as the morph!). Having lowered AOE cap limits with no stat caps as of 1.6, and being able to still aoe spam alongside the higher crit rates we can reach now (impenetrable no longer makes us not crit, it just can lower the damage from our crits) would be extremely broken.

Nearly of the hits on average will crit in a damage-oriented build, minimum, on the sorc factoring in the typical 42% basic spell critical loadout of gear along with the 3% dark magic bonus for a total of 45%, and not using a precise staff (instead having a nirnhoned staff for the extra spell pen along with the Apprentice mundus or in some builds, the Mage for pvp or Atronarch). It used to be the case that most people ran around with 20-50% flat reductions in chance to be critically hit, so it kept this in check when there was no internal cooldown for us. If you had 45% spell crit against someone wearing 50% worth of impenetrable gear... you literally could not critically hit them. Now if you have 45% spell crit... you will critically hit 45% of the time against them, rain or shine.

You can't think that purposefully avoiding DOTs so they don't eat up your Surge healing is a good mechanic, can you? I understand the internal cooldown because AOE builds would have some insane healing, but getting those 400 point heals from Boundless Storm while your Wrecking Blow crit for what would be a 7k heal right afterwards is extremely frustrating. Add in the fact that you can not crit a blocking opponent, and for stamina builds, it will always be Rally over Crit Surge.

Not sure why you are talking about spell crit and such in a stamina thread, by the way.

You're nitpicking, honestly here: substitute "weapon crit" and the exact same point applies . And in a single-target situation, you won't be using enough DOT's for it to be an issue. It's only once you're slamming down aoe's that it comes into play, but at that time the cooldown is being hit every single time and you're still getting nice amounts of healing in any case. I think that Eric Wrobel's solution, outlined on the last ESO Live broadcast, of potentially adding a minimum heal amount to the effect will be more than sufficient.

CP5 · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Also just to touch on the whole critical/power surge controversy... the 1/4th of a second internal cooldown really doesn't affect much other than huge amounts of aoe dot's going off from us. It still allows for our big attacks to proc it even after a dot recently had, for example (yum when an insta-empowered frag clutch heals as a crit ), and provides a good chunk of healing when aoe'ing (especially in stamina builds since you can spec for the much higher healing percentage of your damage done, as the morph!). Having lowered AOE cap limits with no stat caps as of 1.6, and being able to still aoe spam alongside the higher crit rates we can reach now (impenetrable no longer makes us not crit, it just can lower the damage from our crits) would be extremely broken.

Nearly of the hits on average will crit in a damage-oriented build, minimum, on the sorc factoring in the typical 42% basic spell critical loadout of gear along with the 3% dark magic bonus for a total of 45%, and not using a precise staff (instead having a nirnhoned staff for the extra spell pen along with the Apprentice mundus or in some builds, the Mage for pvp or Atronarch). It used to be the case that most people ran around with 20-50% flat reductions in chance to be critically hit, so it kept this in check when there was no internal cooldown for us. If you had 45% spell crit against someone wearing 50% worth of impenetrable gear... you literally could not critically hit them. Now if you have 45% spell crit... you will critically hit 45% of the time against them, rain or shine.

You can't think that purposefully avoiding DOTs so they don't eat up your Surge healing is a good mechanic, can you? I understand the internal cooldown because AOE builds would have some insane healing, but getting those 400 point heals from Boundless Storm while your Wrecking Blow crit for what would be a 7k heal right afterwards is extremely frustrating. Add in the fact that you can not crit a blocking opponent, and for stamina builds, it will always be Rally over Crit Surge.

Not sure why you are talking about spell crit and such in a stamina thread, by the way.

You're nitpicking, honestly here: substitute "weapon crit" and the exact same point applies . And in a single-target situation, you won't be using enough DOT's for it to be an issue. It's only once you're slamming down aoe's that it comes into play, but at that time the cooldown is being hit every single time and you're still getting nice amounts of healing in any case. I think that Eric Wrobel's solution, outlined on the last ESO Live broadcast, of potentially adding a minimum heal amount to the effect will be more than sufficient.

"Nitpicking" a vital flaw that turns your vital heal into a decorative buff and gives you next to no healing when you need it most is more than valid. I shouldn't have to cut so many skills from my bar just to assure myself that i'll get the powerful heals when I need them, and the higher my crit rate the more I need to avoid.