[Primer] Champion Points - A Cliffs' Notes (well, not really) presentation... ;).

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

I made this table awhile back during the whole confusion here on the official forums before 1.6 went live.

Champion Point scaling works in five primary groups, with one or two minor exceptions. The table above shows what you are gaining as you invest more into a single passive, and the lessened value per point between inherent relative diminishment, and the slight exponent on the boosts' power curves.

Visually, it looks like this for the best scaling group:

(PS Excel really should have a way to do 1:1 plot area scaling, by default it skews it for the charting with no easy workaround

)

That's the best case scenario for the gain you get per point. Looking back at the table above, you'll notice that on three of the five primary groups, you get a much, much lower return, more like half of the line shown above in shape vertically (so it would look the same, but the curve would be half the height).

Additionally, you will gain a minor amount of the stat associated with the section of the wheel a point is placed in, per point regardless of where it's placed inside. For the blue section this is magicka, for the green section this is stamina, and finally, for the red section this is health. All of them provide you with the same amount of their respective stat: 10 points. What this means in practical terms is that if you go from having 150 champion points in all (so 50 per section), to a total of 500 champion points (making for ~166 points per section) you will gain 1,660 magicka, health, and stamina, before any passive modifiers or racials.

The short story is that champion points do help build your character's power, but you can reach a fairly strong baseline in comparison to someone with five times the number of points you have, for example, pretty quickly, while the person with five times the number of points will gain some of each stat but not a huge amount extra if you each invest evenly in the same passives as eachother on that front. As you're earning points, I'd recommend finding the key passives that will boost your playstyle and/or build, and spreading those points between them, focusing inititally on getting the 30-point segment passive for either physical critical chance or magical critical chance unlocked before branching out to other segments inside of the three wheel sections otherwise. Pumping just one passive to a high number will weaken you significantly compared to distributing them more evenly until you get to a moderately low rank (somewhere in the neighborhood of Champion Rank 180-200 is when you will want to begin pushing on one or two specific passives for yourself) .

Seaber · July 2015

TLDR:

Spread your champion points if you don't have many of them.
When you get some more you should focus into 1 tree because the diminishing returns don't exist.
Once you get loads of CPs you become so overpowered you will make 96% of the playerbase quit.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Seaber wrote: »

TLDR:

Spread your champion points if you don't have many of them.
When you get some more you should focus into 1 tree because the diminishing returns don't exist.
Once you get loads of CPs you become so overpowered you will make 96% of the playerbase quit.

That might be a tldr of someone else's post, but certainly not mine

. I only had written about two and a half paragraphs, so I don't think it really needed one.

An accurate tldr of this would look like the following, though:
"The champion system is bottom heavy, so don't throw all of your points into one thing at first. You can see this in a nice summary table I included.

As you earn more ranks, you can begin adding higher spends to single passives to specialize.

By the time you're a few hundred points in, you'll have gained most of the power for a primary role. Eventually you'll see a sharp downturn in how much more effective they make most builds, typically in the 500 to 600 range, even though small power increases will continue."

They also have stated they intend to make the first 400 ranks (pending any changes of course) easier to earn in the future. An active player at vet 14 can very easily make 2.5 to 3 champion ranks a day without aiming to, between enlightenment and general XP gain. It isn't very out there to earn 8 to 10 if you aim to without being on 24/7. Within a few more months most current players should very easily reach, even if they're just starting their veteran ranks today, a couple of hundred champion points. It's just not that long a time to get the baseline

.

sadownik · July 2015

8 cps a day? Well thats a nice 2h grind or 5 h of fetch quests. Not bad.

Tonnopesce · July 2015

AGAIN?

Give it up with the CP stuff no one of the 50% who hate the sistem (because they don't know how it works) will change their mind, they choose to listen to Deltia who cry in his thread (fanboys n'd stuff)

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

AGAIN?

Give it up with the CP stuff no one of the 50% who hate the sistem (because they don't know how it works) will change their mind, they choose to listen to Deltia who cry in his thread (fanboys n'd stuff)

Sensationalistic news headlines grab page hits. That's the same reason you see "DISASTER! MASS HYSTERIA ON WALL STREET!" sell newspapers, and not "Analysis of the Wall Street Markets' Downtrend", for better or for worse.

P3ZZL3 · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sensationalistic news headlines grab page hits. That's the same reason you see "DISASTER! MASS HYSTERIA ON WALL STREET!" sell newspapers, and not "Analysis of the Wall Street Markets' Downtrend", for better or for worse.

I for one am always attracted to the latter of the two

That's generally where the real "The world is ending" information is

Erock25 · July 2015

Love this non stop grinder who brags endlessly about his stack of 200 xp pots is telling us cp system is balanced.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sensationalistic news headlines grab page hits. That's the same reason you see "DISASTER! MASS HYSTERIA ON WALL STREET!" sell newspapers, and not "Analysis of the Wall Street Markets' Downtrend", for better or for worse.

I for one am always attracted to the latter of the two That's generally where the real "The world is ending" information is

That's correct!

Erock25 · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Love this non stop grinder who brags endlessly about his stack of 200 xp pots is telling us cp system is balanced.

Proof? I think I've only mentioned owning in-game-earned XP potions twice ever, and both times were in reply to people stating that you could only buy them with real money on the cash shop and they weren't obtainable in-game . The truth is, of course, that they are very easy to come by with in-game gold and items to trade, really adding no burden at all.

Seen it on the forums and in stormhaven zone chat. I get it that you are grinding your eyes out and you're terrified of losing your advantage. It's a little sad that you make a topic per day though trying to convince people that the cp system isn't going to cause game breaking imbalances.

BuggeX · July 2015

CP is a double-edged Blade.

At the beginn (first 360 CP) it will make you stronger.
More Dmg, Less costs, strong Perks- like Ulti reg.

After, it will come a big hole, where you dont get stronger for your role.

After a certian Point, with enought Cps, ppl will start also waste Points into Things wich the role doesnt Need.
A Tank does not Need increest armor/mag pen. A dd does not Need increest healing done.

So lets say a DK is going for DMG (like me).
I choise +15% Flame DMG, + 15% Magic Penetration , +15% Mag Reg, -10% Mag Cost, -15% Bracke Free and Rolldoge costs.
Feature i will skill some other Percs like Staff expert, Blockcost etc.
i will have the perks with ~360-400 CPs and after, the hole could come up, if i want, also later.

At this Point i have 2 Options, will i increes this perks vor 0,1% each CP, or do i start new perks like heal recived etc?

If i take Option A ) i will be in the hole for a Long time, to fill the perks up i will Need atleast 600-1000 CP more, in this time i will not get any stronger at all.

With B ) i will get stronger, 15% more healrecived, +15% armor for my heavy, + 15% dot mitigation, etc.

so after A or B, i have 1200-1600 CPs.

A ) If Player Z has 600 Cps, all spend in Dmg. and we have the same gear and rota, he will do ~10% less dmg. not that bad for - 1000 Cps.
B ) We will do the same DMG, BUT he will do 15% less dmg to me, and i will heal me more for 15% with gdb and my other spells.

So wenn the first Players hit the 1200 barrier, the causals will have 400-600.

@Attorneyatlawl your math is right for the case all Player choise Option A, this will be the case in PVE Overall.

But the Overall Boost from perks wich dont affect exactly your role or playstyle is for pvp a big Problem.
And there is the Problem, deltia and others see. Include myself.

I love CPs, i dont grind them and i dont care if someone with 2000 CP farm me.
I also think a catch-up will not make it in any case better.

i even cant undertsand how someone would Balance this, 3600 CP is a Overall boost from 100% to someone with 0 CP

25% more dmg
25% more mitigation
25% more Heal
25% more sustain (more reg, less costs)

and this is even without the Bonus perks or higher resource pools

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Love this non stop grinder who brags endlessly about his stack of 200 xp pots is telling us cp system is balanced.

Proof? I think I've only mentioned owning in-game-earned XP potions twice ever, and both times were in reply to people stating that you could only buy them with real money on the cash shop and they weren't obtainable in-game . The truth is, of course, that they are very easy to come by with in-game gold and items to trade, really adding no burden at all.

Seen it on the forums and in stormhaven zone chat. I get it that you are grinding your eyes out and you're terrified of losing your advantage. It's a little sad that you make a topic per day though trying to convince people that the cp system isn't going to cause game breaking imbalances.

Please don't spread false junk about other forum users and players. I mentioned what I have, quite literally, twice in direct forum replies to posters stating that you could only get them by spending real cash on the crown store

. I don't even remember any in-game zone chat mention, though I joke around with friends and guildmates in guild, zone, and party chats... I have no idea if that was ever mentioned or not, but if it were it would have been completely insignificant. That's hardly bragging, and the point of it was to debunk the incorrect claims that you couldn't earn them in-game. Keep the topic about the issues, not the people... and don't run around with wild hyperbole that isn't even true. Be better than that.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

CP is a double-edged Blade.

At the beginn (first 360 CP) it will make you stronger.
More Dmg, Less costs, strong Perks- like Ulti reg.

After, it will come a big hole, where you dont get stronger for your role.

so after A or B, i have 1200-1600 CPs.

A) If Player Z has 600 Cps, all spend in Dmg. and we have the same gear and rota, he will do ~10% less dmg. not that bad for - 1000 Cps.
We will do the same DMG, BUT he will do 15% less dmg to me, and i will heal me more for 15% with gdb and my other spells.

So wenn the first Players hit the 1200 barrier, the causals will have 400-600.

@Attorneyatlawl your math is right for the case all Player choise Option A, this will be the case in PVE Overall.

But the Overall Boost from perks wich dont affect exactly your role or playstyle is for pvp a big Problem.
And there is the Problem, deltia and others see. Include myself.

I love CPs, i dont grind them and i dont care if someone with 2000 CP farm me.
I also think a catch-up will not make it in any case better.

i even cant undertsand how someone would Balance this, 3600 CP is a Overall boost from 100% to someone with 0 CP

25% more dmg, 25% more mitigation, 25% more Heal, 25% more sustain (more reg, less costs)
and this is even without the Bonus perks or higher resource pools

That doesn't add up to 100% more player power either practically or mathematically. Like I said in the original post here,

"By the time you're a few hundred points in, you'll have gained most of the power for a primary role. Eventually you'll see a sharp downturn in how much more effective they make most builds, typically in the 500 to 600 range, even though small power increases will continue.

They also have stated they intend to make the first 400 ranks (pending any changes of course) easier to earn in the future. An active player at vet 14 can very easily make 2.5 to 3 champion ranks a day without aiming to, between enlightenment and general XP gain. It isn't very out there to earn 8 to 10 if you aim to without being on 24/7. Within a few more months most current players should very easily reach, even if they're just starting their veteran ranks today, a couple of hundred champion points. It's just not that long a time to get the baseline."

Someone just starting out having bought an MMORPG for the first time and who never has played that game before, is always going to be behind in every single game out there on the planet in this genre. You don't start from day 1 with a maxed veteran rank character, the best gear for how you want to play pre-upgraded to legendary, and an infinite supply of consumables to PVP with. The impportant part is what I bolded above. A new player just doesn't have that big a stretch to get to a reasonable baseline of power. Over time ZOS can very easily curve down the XP requirements for the first X champion points, then the next Y, and eventually another Z levels. That's not tough, and is such a readily thought-of idea that they themselves even said is coming. Give them more credit than that to run a well-done game.

Tors · July 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Love this non stop grinder who brags endlessly about his stack of 200 xp pots is telling us cp system is balanced.

Proof? I think I've only mentioned owning in-game-earned XP potions twice ever, and both times were in reply to people stating that you could only buy them with real money on the cash shop and they weren't obtainable in-game . The truth is, of course, that they are very easy to come by with in-game gold and items to trade, really adding no burden at all.

Seen it on the forums and in stormhaven zone chat. I get it that you are grinding your eyes out and you're terrified of losing your advantage. It's a little sad that you make a topic per day though trying to convince people that the cp system isn't going to cause game breaking imbalances.

Ive said a few times how many hundreds of exp pots I have (had, been giving them to people who stop to rez me in Cryo

so thats a lot gone)

Actualy, when I showed off about the amount of money and exp pots I had, I, much like @ATTORN3YATLOL shows in this post explained how easy it is to get stuff for yourself.

Instead of looking at something and crying about how hard it is and how other people get it easier/beneft from it more, just do it and it becoems simple.

lol Attorny is showing the maths behind something in the same vein, CP is NOT a game killer if you can be bothered to reach a minimum level, and that mininum level is around the 180 mark, which is EASY to get. Ive made 40 in the last week without serious grind. That said when I was grinding i treated it seriously, but still the points the same.

Cash
Exp
CP
Items

All of these are easy to get in this game. Bring in a tiered item system like the idiots want and things will change, with no amount of personal hard work getting what you need without the backing of a good guild/group.

ESO is good for the casual, and by that I mean people like me who group for fun (or PvP) but put a lot of effort into the game, almsot like a solo game.

The CP bonus that people (including me untill I looked at the maths here) is nothing like as scary as I thourght. I knew the diminishing returns were hefty, but didint think they were this heavy.

There is really little between my 240 CP and someones 500 Cp. Certainly me on 500 CP will still get my backside kicked by anyone semi-decent on 240 CP

Edited for speeling which is apealing on this post, then gave up and left it as it was

Jolinius · July 2015

Yeah did anyone happen to play the pts and fight someone with full cps and you only had 75. I think that speaks for itself. It is stupid unfair. Im speaking from experience of someone who played against full cp already. Try being a brand new player a year from now. Have fun getting destroyed utterly.

Tors · July 2015

Jolinius wrote: »

Yeah did anyone happen to play the pts and fight someone with full cps and you only had 75. I think that speaks for itself. It is stupid unfair. Im speaking from experience of someone who played against full cp already. Try being a brand new player a year from now. Have fun getting destroyed utterly.

Why shoudla new player win vs someone who has played for a year.

A new player can put a couple of weeks into improoving their character to get 100 (including those earnt during the leveling process) and be in a situation where it will be hard, but not impossible.

Presumably that awesome end level enemy player they are facing is also abusing the system by being tricked out in yellows and haveing exploted the skill points to have them too!!

He may even have a group of people with him which totally bypasses the % improvement on a single charater anyway (cab to explain why, your not listening anyway)

Shock Horror!!

Smiteye · July 2015

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

AGAIN?

Give it up with the CP stuff no one of the 50% who hate the sistem (because they don't know how it works) will change their mind, they choose to listen to Deltia who cry in his thread (fanboys n'd stuff)

Yep they even have spilled in here now with jealousy and not understanding anything about CP now too!

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Jolinius wrote: »

Yeah did anyone happen to play the pts and fight someone with full cps and you only had 75. I think that speaks for itself. It is stupid unfair. Im speaking from experience of someone who played against full cp already. Try being a brand new player a year from now. Have fun getting destroyed utterly.

ZOS has already announced catch-up plans to 400 or so, coming in the not far future. They'll add more with time. This isn't even a potential issue. It isn't happening.

Cyrodiil also is not a 1v1 arena.

Jolinius · July 2015

Tors wrote: »

Jolinius wrote: »

Yeah did anyone happen to play the pts and fight someone with full cps and you only had 75. I think that speaks for itself. It is stupid unfair. Im speaking from experience of someone who played against full cp already. Try being a brand new player a year from now. Have fun getting destroyed utterly.

Why shoudla new player win vs someone who has played for a year.

A new player can put a couple of weeks into improoving their character to get 100 (including those earnt during the leveling process) and be in a situation where it will be hard, but not impossible.

Presumably that awesome end level enemy player they are facing is also abusing the system by being tricked out in yellows and haveing exploted the skill points to have them too!!

He may even have a group of people with him which totally bypasses the % improvement on a single charater anyway (cab to explain why, your not listening anyway)

Shock Horror!!

Why should a new player win vs someone who has played for a year.....because hes more skilled. Thats why.

Erock25 · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Love this non stop grinder who brags endlessly about his stack of 200 xp pots is telling us cp system is balanced.

Proof? I think I've only mentioned owning in-game-earned XP potions twice ever, and both times were in reply to people stating that you could only buy them with real money on the cash shop and they weren't obtainable in-game . The truth is, of course, that they are very easy to come by with in-game gold and items to trade, really adding no burden at all.

Seen it on the forums and in stormhaven zone chat. I get it that you are grinding your eyes out and you're terrified of losing your advantage. It's a little sad that you make a topic per day though trying to convince people that the cp system isn't going to cause game breaking imbalances.

Please don't spread false junk about other forum users and players. I mentioned what I have, quite literally, twice in direct forum replies to posters stating that you could only get them by spending real cash on the crown store . I don't even remember any in-game zone chat mention, though I joke around with friends and guildmates in guild, zone, and party chats... I have no idea if that was ever mentioned or not, but if it were it would have been completely insignificant. That's hardly bragging, and the point of it was to debunk the incorrect claims that you couldn't earn them in-game. Keep the topic about the issues, not the people... and don't run around with wild hyperbole that isn't even true. Be better than that.

Whatever you say mr ambassador. Will you create a new topic tomorrow to try and convince people that CP is balanced?

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

Jolinius wrote: »

Tors wrote: »

Jolinius wrote: »

Yeah did anyone happen to play the pts and fight someone with full cps and you only had 75. I think that speaks for itself. It is stupid unfair. Im speaking from experience of someone who played against full cp already. Try being a brand new player a year from now. Have fun getting destroyed utterly.

Why shoudla new player win vs someone who has played for a year.

A new player can put a couple of weeks into improoving their character to get 100 (including those earnt during the leveling process) and be in a situation where it will be hard, but not impossible.

Presumably that awesome end level enemy player they are facing is also abusing the system by being tricked out in yellows and haveing exploted the skill points to have them too!!

He may even have a group of people with him which totally bypasses the % improvement on a single charater anyway (cab to explain why, your not listening anyway)

Shock Horror!!

Why should a new player win vs someone who has played for a year.....because hes more skilled. Thats why.

And they can. We're not talking about a 5x power difference here, anyways, when comparing a skilled and active player who started a month or two ago versus one that started a year ago. See the OP for details and why it does, and later will continue to, turn into more along the lines of 5-25% overall. Considering some go around 1vX'ing (my favorite gameplay type, actually

, since the DAOC days a decade ago) and coming out on top against 5-10, even 20+ in some times, enemies, you can hardly argue skill isn't the biggest factor in ESO.

Even in PVE, most of the people on the top half of the leaderboards can attest to either having someone else try, or them trying someone else's, build down to the gear and skill bar loadouts, and doing anywhere from 30% less to 30% more damage initially. That is skill, with a completely controlled environment and every last detail made the same, allowing for a 60% gap.

BuggeX · July 2015

some other fast question. Do you also Play on EU? or is there just a poster using you Name "Please Don't Nerf Me"?

I know they going add some ctach-up mechanics.

Well if you speak from the Feature, then also think about the removal from V-Ranks.
Without V-Ranks, there isnt the time you can go to endlvl and Content and gian some Cps while doing this.
Without V-Ranks you hit endcontent with 0 CP.

I hope they get it right, but with the current CP-System and Feature known Changes, CP is a big Problem.
And not just becaus of +x% for somthing, the time req. is the biggest Problem for most ppls.

Jolinius · July 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Jolinius wrote: »

Tors wrote: »

Jolinius wrote: »

Yeah did anyone happen to play the pts and fight someone with full cps and you only had 75. I think that speaks for itself. It is stupid unfair. Im speaking from experience of someone who played against full cp already. Try being a brand new player a year from now. Have fun getting destroyed utterly.

Why shoudla new player win vs someone who has played for a year.

A new player can put a couple of weeks into improoving their character to get 100 (including those earnt during the leveling process) and be in a situation where it will be hard, but not impossible.

Presumably that awesome end level enemy player they are facing is also abusing the system by being tricked out in yellows and haveing exploted the skill points to have them too!!

He may even have a group of people with him which totally bypasses the % improvement on a single charater anyway (cab to explain why, your not listening anyway)

Shock Horror!!

Why should a new player win vs someone who has played for a year.....because hes more skilled. Thats why.

And they can. We're not talking about a 5x power difference here, anyways, when comparing a skilled and active player who started a month or two ago versus one that started a year ago. See the OP for details and why it does, and later will continue to, turn into more along the lines of 5-25% overall. Considering some go around 1vX'ing (my favorite gameplay type, actually , since the DAOC days a decade ago) and coming out on top against 5-10, even 20+ in some times, enemies, you can hardly argue skill isn't the biggest factor in ESO.

Even in PVE, most of the people on the top half of the leaderboards can attest to either having someone else try, or them trying someone else's, build down to the gear and skill bar loadouts, and doing anywhere from 30% less to 30% more damage initially. That is skill, with a completely controlled environment and every last detail made the same, allowing for a 60% gap.

Alright heres how i like to think of it. All these champion points add around 20% to mitigation and damage and what have you. Its not a 5 times power difference . But its like fighting someone in a standard of might but all the time and without fire damage.

Attorneyatlawl · July 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

some other fast question. Do you also Play on EU? or is there just a poster using you Name "Please Don't Nerf Me"?

Nope... I don't play on the EU servers at all. I've been asked that question before too, which is why I put the "(NA Megaserver)" tag in my signature more recently

. I reserved my names on headstart since I was guessing someone might try to snag them even though I keep a pretty low profile

but hadn't thought of grabbing them on EU (I posted only a couple of videos pre-launch, but I've been an active poster continuously). I'm hopping in-game to play for a few... but I saw the rest of your post and will tag back with a reply later on

.

ragespell · July 2015

No, 40cp/week is NOT an easy target.
Yes, CP count, very much: if not, you wouldn't lose your eyesight grinding them, 8h/day 7d/week.

You are becoming the strongest player in the server, and I understand that this fact make you feel so good about yourself.
But:
a) it takes no skill at all, this kind of progression. In every other mmorpg, to belong to the elite you have to really be one of the best in that game. Here? It's enough being unemployed.
b) it doesn't have any kind of reset mechanism (mmorpg NEED that; and last time I checked this is not a single player game)
c) I want the pve content to be engaging: but how could it be, if there are difference this big between players (and yes, even 10% more of everything+passives is a really big difference)

Sorry for my bad english

Smiteye · July 2015

ote="ragespell;2002276"]No, 40cp/week is NOT an easy target.
Yes, CP count, very much: if not, you wouldn't lose your eyesight grinding them, 8h/day 7d/week.

You are becoming the strongest player in the server, and I understand that this fact make you feel so good about yourself.
But:
a) it takes no skill at all, this kind of progression. In every other mmorpg, to belong to the elite you have to really be one of the best in that game. Here? It's enough being unemployed.
b) it doesn't have any kind of reset mechanism (mmorpg NEED that; and last time I checked this is not a single player game)
c) I want the pve content to be engaging: but how could it be, if there are difference this big between players (and yes, even 10% more of everything+passives is a really big difference)

Sorry for my bad english[/quote]

Lolo lol, speaking of feeling good, does it make you feel good to yell at people? Cause being good means getting more stuff in any mmorpg anyway, ladder points in wow or op gear in others. Elder scrolls just doesn't force it onto one character. Much lol at accusing any guys who don't agree of being conceited and trying to trick their way into being best. Not that the op here needs that, he's damn good now and was damn good in beta days. And what of his suggesting Makin pvp be good xp too? Then good PvPersget big xp also and grinding fades into kobscurity as something old school mmo people like me enjoy.