Why are Champion Points a problem in PvP?

ShadowMole25 · July 2015

Personally, I have never has a problem with the champion system. I have been playing since it went buy to play, and my highest level character is level 49. I'm not even at the veteran ranks yet because I mostly play PvP. I also play solo most of the time and simply travel to wherever the battles are in order to help out. My kill to death ratio is usually around 5. This is because I have taken the time to learn how the game mechanics work. I have a hard time even in 1v1, but I am good at choosing targets in a large scale battle, as well as surviving if I am caught on my own. I should also point out that I an argonian stamina nb. I know people say that champion points are a problem, but if so, wouldn't nonvet be where it is the most obvious? I usually die if I don't see a siege circle during a battle or if I'm not paying attention to where the battle lines are and I get surrounded.

PvP is all about skill and how you use your abilities. This game does not revolve around entirely around stats, it has a lot to do with skill. I am sure that I have killed people with CPs, and they have probably killed me as well. I would like to say that i am an above average player, but I'm not sure. I am never high up on the leaderboards simply because I am not on enough to get that kind of AP, but when I am on I will about 10k in a half hour if I go into the middle of a large battle. I know that I don't have the skill to 1v1 yet, but that is my goal. I mainly try to survive, and I do this by focusing on terrain. If I am in open terrain, I sneak. If I am at a choke point or surrounded by enemies, I CC. PvP is knowing when to use certain abilites.

And for anyone trying to accuse me of following the standard stamina NB formula, first, I am an Argonian. Second my bars are DW and Bow, however, once again, I don't have the skill or a good enough mouse to follow people at melee range, so I only use my Bow bar. I don't have any self heals, nor do I use potions. Yet, I manage to survive well enough to have fun. PvE may be more stat based than skill based, I'm not sure about this, but skills rule PvP. Yes, stats do mean that you hit harder, or have more regen, or reduced cost for something, but in the end, it's how you use the stats.

Anyway have fun destroying my argument, but I say things as I see them

washlov · July 2015

think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Akavir_Sentinel · July 2015

Champion points are not a problem. Some players think that champion points are a problem in PvP because they can't win all the time. I have a level 15 alt in the non-vet campaign that has zero CP's and I still have fun and get kills with him.

Alcast · July 2015

because you can stack 100k shield

washlov · July 2015

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

Champion points are not a problem. Some players think that champion points are a problem in PvP because they can't win all the time. I have a level 15 alt in the non-vet campaign that has zero CP's and I still have fun and get kills with him.

what is about PVE? how will you balance that? too easy for high CP players too hard for new players?
and there are leaderboards!!! should people grind a year before they have a chance to be on them???
console players will be the poorest when they realize with v14 there are transferred PC characters with hundreds CP slaughter them and forever rule the leaderboards

think!!!!!!!

k2blader · July 2015

my highest level character is level 49

Mmkay.

Reverb · July 2015

Because my Barrier is so strong that my team is almost impervious to damage; because my spell cost is so low and my regen so high that I can cast nonstop and never run out of mana; because my armour and spell resistance is so high that even if you get through my stacked shields, you will be as effective as a gnat....unless you have even more CP than me and can slice right through those protections. And those are just some examples.

And even with the claimed diminishing returns, you will never catch up with me. Just as I will never catch up with those who have a lot more CP than I do.

dlepi24 · July 2015

ShadowMole25 wrote: »

I have been playing since it went buy to play, and my highest level character is level 49. I'm not even at the veteran ranks yet because I mostly play PvP.

No offence, but let me know how much you enjoy PvP once you hit VR1, lol.

ShadowMole25 · July 2015

dlepi24 wrote: »

ShadowMole25 wrote: »

I have been playing since it went buy to play, and my highest level character is level 49. I'm not even at the veteran ranks yet because I mostly play PvP.

No offence, but let me know how much you enjoy PvP once you hit VR1, lol.

I will. I am trying to get there, but I am on so little that I just progress slowly and PvP is not a constant source of XP. But hopefully it is today or Thursday, won't be on tomorrow.

ShadowMole25 · July 2015

washlov wrote: »

Akavir_Sentinel wrote: »

Champion points are not a problem. Some players think that champion points are a problem in PvP because they can't win all the time. I have a level 15 alt in the non-vet campaign that has zero CP's and I still have fun and get kills with him.

what is about PVE? how will you balance that? too easy for high CP players too hard for new players?
and there are leaderboards!!! should people grind a year before they have a chance to be on them???
console players will be the poorest when they realize with v14 there are transferred PC characters with hundreds CP slaughter them and forever rule the leaderboards

think!!!!!!!

I did only focus on one aspect of the game, and you are probably right about console players vs transfers

Dionysusjones · July 2015

Because I can't win... said by all pvp losers everywhere always

TheBull · July 2015

they are a problem because they give certain people something to point at when they lose.

washlov · July 2015

Dionysusjones wrote: »

Because I can't win... said by all pvp losers everywhere always

TheBull wrote: »

they are a problem because they give certain people something to point at when they lose.

says the CP farmers

J2JMC · July 2015

Funny part is you're stronger now than you are going to be when you hit vr1. Hope you enjoyed that battle leveling.

Transfers were stupid. Probably not the thread for this but it was mentioned so I'm obligated to say something lol.

TheBull · July 2015

washlov wrote: »

Dionysusjones wrote: »

Because I can't win... said by all pvp losers everywhere always

TheBull wrote: »

they are a problem because they give certain people something to point at when they lose.

says the CP farmers

I farm people and just so happens I get CP from that.

Troneon · July 2015

It's simple, right now the pvp in ESO is PAY2WIN.

Why?

Because the cap with champion points is so high you might as well have no cap at all, the cap needs to be lowered for balance and fair pvp.

You buy exp potions whether through gold or RL cash, you buy subscription for more exp bonus, you buy mara ring edition for more exp bonus, you grind exp, you get thousands of CP. New players have no chance against you, literally none you will get destroyed.

Now, if you could level the playing field and eso had a catch up mechanic in place like a lower total cap on champion points in a more reasonable time frame instead of the current 300 days of in game time, then maybe it would not be pay 2 win as you could achieve the same champion points. Problem is nothing like that exists so you can never ever catch up with grinders and people who have perma exp bonus from potions and RL cash, when you finally reach their 1000 CP they will have 3000+ CP....and you will still get destroyed...

Basically grinders + exp potions + new VR = MEGA $$$$$ for ESO and they do not give a crap about fair pvp or balance in this game, only $$$$$$.

If they put in a cap of 1000 or more champion points, then atleast everyone to achieve the same level fair playing field and pvp would be about player skill, knowledge and builds.

Instead right now whoever grinds the most and buys the most exp potions + subscription + mara rings etc gains the most mathematical advantage with champion points. Where the gap becomes so big it's impossible to keep it fair pvp or balanced.

Reverb wrote: »

Because my Barrier is so strong that my team is almost impervious to damage; because my spell cost is so low and my regen so high that I can cast nonstop and never run out of mana; because my armour and spell resistance is so high that even if you get through my stacked shields, you will be as effective as a gnat....unless you have even more CP than me and can slice right through those protections. And those are just some examples.

And even with the claimed diminishing returns, you will never catch up with me. Just as I will never catch up with those who have a lot more CP than I do.

TRUTH ^^

Egonieser · July 2015

Reverb wrote: »

Because my Barrier is so strong that my team is almost impervious to damage; because my spell cost is so low and my regen so high that I can cast nonstop and never run out of mana; because my armour and spell resistance is so high that even if you get through my stacked shields, you will be as effective as a gnat....unless you have even more CP than me and can slice right through those protections. And those are just some examples.

And even with the claimed diminishing returns, you will never catch up with me. Just as I will never catch up with those who have a lot more CP than I do.

I partially agree.
Skill does matter for the most part. But if you put 2 opponents against each other with equal skill/gear/loadouts etc and make them fight. One has 30 CP other has 300, the 300 will ALWAYS win because he will always have that edge. The fight might be close, but the CP gap will give you that winning boost and those who say that it doesn't are either oblivious or just arrogant.
However, not all players are the same and skill wins 80% of the times. Most people who have sh&tloads of CP are just common grinders with relatively little skill in PvP and die as much as the next guy. However if you meet a player who has your skill and MORE CP than you, it is safe to assume you're rekt, even if you do have the skills required to win in normal circumstances. This is where that imbalance starts. You have to compare equals not random players, that is where the measurement is taken. And that is where it undoubtably proves that CP does destroy competitive playing field and there is no valid argument that proves otherwise.
However, I also agree that people should be awarded in some shape or form for playing this game, whereas it might hurt the game balance in one way or another, it also insures people remain to play this game after reaching level cap and give them incentive to keep playing in the long run - ensuring ZoS gets their wages and we get to keep the game. So I still remain rather neutral on this. I do see both sides of the argument, but facts cannot be denied.

exiledtyrant · July 2015

Champion points are an issue because they eliminate build weaknesses. A game becomes less about skill when you have less drawbacks and everything becomes a plus. CP also puts a larger stat gap between players than white vs gold gear ever did.

Funkopotamus · July 2015

There is no strat/skill you can use to overcome a person with 25% regen on about everything. Also you might want to look up Deltias post about exactly how bad CP is to the competitive PvP players.

More and more "well know" members of the community are coming out with more and more facts about how broken this system is.. Then there are the people that no matter what proof they are given they will just hold their noses and close their eyes and say "everything is fine"

Molsondry · July 2015

Sipher said CP create a huge gap where he cant do anything agaisnt some player even if he knows for sure he has 2x the skills they have. Its one of the best eso pvp player out there cmon...

And has a arena master/ 2.2k + rbg wow player I can say its broken. Anyway eso meta is around 2-3 passive buff on your bar and 2 skill. block,dodge roll and animation cancel.No ressource management for anyone with 300 + cp... There is like 0 skill involved in 24 men zergs compared to a Wow RBG , and not even comparable to any Wow arena... Like spaming steel tornado and purge was hard LOL.

Ive played alot of pvp and having to use that one aoe skill while going tigh as a zerg group is nothing fun. Just like fighting a nice 10v10 , then first thing you know the yellow zerg comes and your in a 10 v40 and you all die. I got bored really fast.

So play stop saying eso pvp and skill in the same sentence. The only skill involved in eso is group Leader communication and group strategy.

Phinix1 · July 2015

ShadowMole25 wrote: »

Why are Champion Points a problem in PvP?

Why are steroids a problem in the Olympics?

ToRelax · July 2015

You wouldn't say they are not a problem if you were on pts when we tested different amounts of cp against each other.
You simply can not know on live wether its player skill or cp that makes a player good, though its not that dramatic yet.
However, its getting worse every day and ZOS' actions (cp pots) are rather encouraging grinding them.

Lionxoft · July 2015

my highest level character is level 49

You aren't even playing with your own stats yet. You're getting welfare bonus checks on your character sheet.

Sausage · July 2015

It becomes are problem if lots of high CP player start to make groups/raids together, what usually happen, basically making them one big wrecking ball, what destroys anything on its path, at least thats my prediction, but whats good in mass PVP, little advantages doesnt matter so much. Btw, I think its happening, new gears from Imperial City and high CP, and no catch-up, I suppose Zen wants to learn this from the hard way.

markt84 · July 2015

The problem is easy to see. Most people have lives outside of a video game, and when they play they want to be at least competitve against people with no lives. How do you kill something that has no life? The game should be more about skill than who grinded the most, well that's if you want you game to actually be successful. And champion points make sure that people with lives will never catch up to the people with no lives, let alone the people new to game

Septimus_Magna · July 2015

Players with 400+ CPs, the best gear and great skill are a problem.
The difference between them and someone with only a few CPs, avagere gear and average skill is huge.

With many CPs its much easier to sustain resources and deal high damage, this will only get worse in the future because some people have time to play 14 hours a day compared to 4 hours for most players.

Funkopotamus · July 2015

markt84 wrote: »

The problem is easy to see. . And champion points make sure that people with lives will never catch up to the people with no lives, let alone the people new to game

So true!
Yes as more and more people are learning about the game and how it works the more people are posting about it. ZOS is going to have to address it at some point or the game will fail. MMO's survive by the New players joining the game being = to or greater than the number of people leaving the game.. This CP system not new player friendly at all, and anyone with common since is not going to want to pay $60+DLC/ESP+ to join a game they will never catch up to or be competitive at.

With ZOS doubling down with VR16 coming out and the EXP potions the only thing left for them to do is either scrap CP or
Remove CP from PvP and only allow it to effect PVE. <That would solve just every problem most people have with CP. Most of us wouldn't care that a person can kill a monster faster than us in dungeons, but we do care that like you said we have lives outside of the game

sagitter · July 2015

Alcast wrote: »

because you can stack 100k shield

Dear alcast i killed many Eu leaderboard leaders and i have half the cps they got.
In pvp first thing is your skill, than cps. In pve they count more.
Ofc disvantages are more with new players that have 70 cps at v14 vs who have thousands, so in long term.

Lionxoft · July 2015

sagitter wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

because you can stack 100k shield

Dear alcast i killed many Eu leaderboard leaders and i have half the cps they got.
In pvp first thing is your skill, than cps. In pve they count more.
Ofc disvantages are more with new players that have 70 cps at v14 vs who have thousands, so in long term.

They were probably afk.

BuggeX · July 2015

Troneon wrote: »

It's simple, right now the pvp in ESO is PAY2WIN.

Why?

Because the cap with champion points is so high you might as well have no cap at all, the cap needs to be lowered for balance and fair pvp.

You buy exp potions whether through gold or RL cash, you buy subscription for more exp bonus, you buy mara ring edition for more exp bonus, you grind exp, you get thousands of CP. New players have no chance against you, literally none you will get destroyed.

Now, if you could level the playing field and eso had a catch up mechanic in place like a lower total cap on champion points in a more reasonable time frame instead of the current 300 days of in game time, then maybe it would not be pay 2 win as you could achieve the same champion points. Problem is nothing like that exists so you can never ever catch up with grinders and people who have perma exp bonus from potions and RL cash, when you finally reach their 1000 CP they will have 3000+ CP....and you will still get destroyed...

Basically grinders + exp potions + new VR = MEGA $$$$$ for ESO and they do not give a crap about fair pvp or balance in this game, only $$$$$$.

If they put in a cap of 1000 or more champion points, then atleast everyone to achieve the same level fair playing field and pvp would be about player skill, knowledge and builds.

Instead right now whoever grinds the most and buys the most exp potions + subscription + mara rings etc gains the most mathematical advantage with champion points. Where the gap becomes so big it's impossible to keep it fair pvp or balanced.

Reverb wrote: »

Because my Barrier is so strong that my team is almost impervious to damage; because my spell cost is so low and my regen so high that I can cast nonstop and never run out of mana; because my armour and spell resistance is so high that even if you get through my stacked shields, you will be as effective as a gnat....unless you have even more CP than me and can slice right through those protections. And those are just some examples.

And even with the claimed diminishing returns, you will never catch up with me. Just as I will never catch up with those who have a lot more CP than I do.

TRUTH ^^

Leandor · July 2015

After reading all of the 132 threads currently on the forums in regards to CP issues, I come to two conclusions:

The CP problem is only valid from a PvP point of view. In PvE, you may lose the option to lead the leaderboard, but you still will be able to complete everything successfully.
For PvP, the solution seems to be to have a campaign that is restricted to players under 400 CP. That way, there is an option to improve player-skill wise without having to compete with "the evil ones".

Now can we please agree to that and move on?