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Why does everyone want to be equal?
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DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?
I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.
Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.
I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.
Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.
Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?0 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭The more the inequality, the more money people will potentially spend in the Crown Store to close the gap. The imbalance is deliberate. When you stop thinking about ESO as a game and start seeing it as what it really is which is a business, every decision ZOS has made makes sense.Edited by Junkogen on July 7, 2015 6:29PM1 -
Endless-Shogun✭✭✭The more the inequality, the more money people will potentially spend in the Crown Store to close the gap. The imbalance is deliberate. When you stop thinking about ESO as a game and start seeing it as what it really is which is a business, every decision ZOS has made makes sense.
Valid argument, but the Crown Store is new.
Champion Points are not.- The Legion Empire -0 -
Cernow✭✭✭✭It's not the problem of playing more, it's the problem of being more powerful because you kill zombies over and over again. If someone gets better than me in pvp because he has a higher rank due to his accomplishment in terms of pvp, then hell yes, I want that. But become better in pvp because someone grinds zombies all days, how can this be good for anyone ?
^^ this. Exactly this. Sums it up perfectly.0 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭Endless-Shogun wrote: »The more the inequality, the more money people will potentially spend in the Crown Store to close the gap. The imbalance is deliberate. When you stop thinking about ESO as a game and start seeing it as what it really is which is a business, every decision ZOS has made makes sense.
Valid argument, but the Crown Store is new.
Champion Points are not.
New to us, but not new to the business plan. Business plans are like playing chess, you have think farther along than simply what's in front of you.1 -
gard✭✭✭✭✭We complain because most of us don't have nearly as much time to spend on progression as a lot of other players out there. That we would have to spend time off work/school/sleep to be able to stand up against some of the xp grinders. When a lot of us were performing just fine purely by skill, and now have no chance of catching up.
It's cramping our style.
We don't care that a level 20 has an advantage over a level 2, we can overcome that distance relatively quickly. But when we're sitting on max level waiting for the next big challenge and what happens is everybody else is getting a 1% boost every day that we log on. We fall behind, very quickly. And no amount of dedication is going to catch us up.
It's been 6 months(?) since the release of the Champion System, I have put in about 12 hours of play, because in just the first week I had already fallen so far behind. I literally have no motivation to pick the game back up.
And that's why we don't like it.
That's life. You're asking for changes to accommodate yourself, to the detriment of the game.
This is going to sound rude (I don't mean it to be), but why not go pvp in a game like nwn where you can buy your way to competitiveness rather than spend the time to do it?
Not every game is for everyone, and if ZOS doesn't realize that and stop trying to cater to everyone, they are selling themselves short.
1 -
brandon✭✭✭✭
I couldn't agree with you more! If you put in more time then you should be rewarded for that time. I haven't had time to play this game in close to a month, so i'm much further behind CP wise, but I knew that and I accept it. I'll catch up eventually whether that be in a few months or a few years. I actually really like the CP system because it adds a lot of leveling possibilities. I think people just love to complain because they complained about veteran ranks and now they are complaining about CP. Those people will never be happy.I keep seeing everyone complain about the champion system and whine about how it's so unfair. I don't understand how that's possible. If I play the game for one hour and get to level 3 and someone else plays the game for 12 hours and gets to level 20, how is that fair? If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it? This is a rpg system where the more you play the stronger you get, so if you don't have time to put into the game as everyone else then that's just how the game is intended to work. If everyone wants to be the same then we need to remove the rpg system and have one class and one level and that would make everyone happy, right?1 -
Endless-Shogun✭✭✭
I agree.Endless-Shogun wrote: »The more the inequality, the more money people will potentially spend in the Crown Store to close the gap. The imbalance is deliberate. When you stop thinking about ESO as a game and start seeing it as what it really is which is a business, every decision ZOS has made makes sense.
Valid argument, but the Crown Store is new.
Champion Points are not.
New to us, but not new to the business plan. Business plans are like playing chess, you have think farther along than simply what's in front of you.
If that is there intent, they really should release items to help with this gap then lol
On the console at least, theres currently not any EXP increase items (other than plus and ring of mara)- The Legion Empire -0 -
MCMancub✭✭✭✭delphwind_ESO wrote: »I agree.
To those that want a non vertical progression system please see GW2 or pretty much any shooter type game. There is a niche for you, but this is not it.
Creating another PvP campaign will only split the already dwindling player base.
Be careful what you wish for, if you yell loud enough you just may see results that you did not expect ... like a dead game.
[SNIP] I am sorry, but who said that ESO can't borrow mechanics from GW2, Fifa and Counter-Strike? This is an online Elder Scrolls game. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, this game needs progression, but it doesn't have to be a vertical progression system. I strongly believe this game would be much, much more successful if it used a horizontal progression system instead.
I can't stand it when people say they want horizontal progression for end game content in MMOs. It doesn't fit. You spend hours and hours doing vertical progression in the form of levels only to have it cease entirely?
Why do you think GW2's player base is so pitifully low? It takes 50 hours to hit level 80 and then there's ZERO progression. You're done. Ya, there's stuff to do, but what's the point?
Your character gets nothing out of horizontal progression except for more "build paths", and if you're playing to be the strongest (and complete the content) then none of those extra things matter. You'll simply always use the strongest build. If you're playing to have fun (and complete the content), then that means the content in the game is balanced so that you can succeed no matter what you do, and no decision you make truly matters.
MMOs NEED vertical progression. They're founded on it. You can call it endless grinding or a treadmill or whatever you want, but it's always the same. MMOs need that mechanic in order to succeed.
Champion Points are no different. The only problem with them right now is that there's a lack of content as you progress through the system and obtain more Champion Points.
[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]Edited by ZOS_MaryB on July 8, 2015 10:45AM2 -
rb2001✭✭✭✭I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?
I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.
Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.
I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.
Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.
Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?
This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.
One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.
It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.
ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:
Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.Edited by rb2001 on July 7, 2015 7:03PM2 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭I can't stand it when people say they want horizontal progression for end game content in MMOs. It doesn't fit. You spend hours and hours doing vertical progression in the form of levels only to have it cease entirely?
Why do you think GW2's player base is so pitifully low? It takes 50 hours to hit level 80 and then there's ZERO progression. You're done. Ya, there's stuff to do, but what's the point?
Your character gets nothing out of horizontal progression except for more "build paths", and if you're playing to be the strongest (and complete the content) then none of those extra things matter. You'll simply always use the strongest build. If you're playing to have fun (and complete the content), then that means the content in the game is balanced so that you can succeed no matter what you do, and no decision you make truly matters.
MMOs NEED vertical progression. They're founded on it. You can call it endless grinding or a treadmill or whatever you want, but it's always the same. MMOs need that mechanic in order to succeed.
Champion Points are no different. The only problem with them right now is that there's a lack of content as you progress through the system and obtain more Champion Points.
Well @MCMancub, I just don't believe they do, not for endgame. Vertical progression is great in the beginning to transform you from a nut into a fighter. But in a multiplayer game the social aspect is the most important part of the game. That social gameplay can be competitive and casual PVP and PVE, group questing and other things. But all of these things require players to be roughly on the same level to be fun. A vertical progression system is the root for all of these problems. It unbalances PVP and PVE leaderboards and it makes it difficult for players who have put different amounts of time into the game difficult to play together. A horizontal progression system solves all these problems and gives players plenty of incentive to play. Players just need to be re-educated. They need to learn that it's more fun to play a HPS based game. Currently many players just can't envision a horizontal progression system. That's all. But that doesn't mean it won't be better.1 -
tmacdec✭✭The only real issue I see is the PC transfers. This was a epically bad idea by Zos. While yes you are correct that if I play for one hour and you play for 12 I would have no right to complain, when I have no access to the game and you come in fresh at max level with 300+ CPs there is a slight imbalance, wouldn't you agree. Also try out bidding PC transfers on guild traders so your guild can have a store. The PC transfer issue is real, it's not going to keep me from playing and kicking and scratching my way to the top but the imbalance is real.1 -
MCMancub✭✭✭✭I can't stand it when people say they want horizontal progression for end game content in MMOs. It doesn't fit. You spend hours and hours doing vertical progression in the form of levels only to have it cease entirely?
Why do you think GW2's player base is so pitifully low? It takes 50 hours to hit level 80 and then there's ZERO progression. You're done. Ya, there's stuff to do, but what's the point?
Your character gets nothing out of horizontal progression except for more "build paths", and if you're playing to be the strongest (and complete the content) then none of those extra things matter. You'll simply always use the strongest build. If you're playing to have fun (and complete the content), then that means the content in the game is balanced so that you can succeed no matter what you do, and no decision you make truly matters.
MMOs NEED vertical progression. They're founded on it. You can call it endless grinding or a treadmill or whatever you want, but it's always the same. MMOs need that mechanic in order to succeed.
Champion Points are no different. The only problem with them right now is that there's a lack of content as you progress through the system and obtain more Champion Points.
Well @MCMancub, I just don't believe they do, not for endgame. Vertical progression is great in the beginning to transform you from a nut into a fighter. But in a multiplayer game the social aspect is the most important part of the game. That social gameplay can be competitive and casual PVP and PVE, group questing and other things. But all of these things require players to be roughly on the same level to be fun. A vertical progression system is the root for all of these problems. It unbalances PVP and PVE leaderboards and it makes it difficult for players who have put different amounts of time into the game difficult to play together. A horizontal progression system solves all these problems and gives players plenty of incentive to play. Players just need to be re-educated. They need to learn that it's more fun to play a HPS based game. Currently many players just can't envision a horizontal progression system. That's all. But that doesn't mean it won't be better.
No, they don't. You can disagree all you want, but GW2 is a strictly HPS game at end game and it has fallen flat on its face.
Please define for me what you think "social gameplay" is. What you just described is how League of Legends works, and I've never played a game with more toxicity and hate for the people you're playing with in my entire life.
The root of competition is the desire to win a prize. That prize can be physical or metaphysical, but it exists. There is no motivation to compete if there is nothing to win.
Stripping down competition to skill alone sounds like a great idea. Everyone is on a even playing field and the player who is the most skilled wins. That's great. What do they win? If all PvP is comprised of is killing others for fun based on skill, what's the point? If all PvE is comprised of is killing a boss for fun based on skill, what's the point? There has to be a reward, and that reward will always divide players into groups: those who have obtained the reward and those who haven't.
Vertical Progression is by no means perfect or fallible, but Horizontal Progression gets nothing right that actually matters in an MMO, which is longevity in the game.
EDIT: We can argue semantically about what kind of reward is the best reward. GW2 thought providing costumes and aesthetics would keep players but it clearly didn't. WoW tried by offering power. ESO has both.Edited by MCMancub on July 7, 2015 7:16PM1 -
Dionysusjones✭✭✭The more the inequality, the more money people will potentially spend in the Crown Store to close the gap. The imbalance is deliberate. When you stop thinking about ESO as a game and start seeing it as what it really is which is a business, every decision ZOS has made makes sense.
This is a scary thought. I cannot define pay to win more plainly then the idea expressed in this post. This will destroy the game if these ideas are ZOS's endgame0 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The only real issue I see is the PC transfers. This was a epically bad idea by Zos. While yes you are correct that if I play for one hour and you play for 12 I would have no right to complain, when I have no access to the game and you come in fresh at max level with 300+ CPs there is a slight imbalance, wouldn't you agree. Also try out bidding PC transfers on guild traders so your guild can have a store. The PC transfer issue is real, it's not going to keep me from playing and kicking and scratching my way to the top but the imbalance is real.
Wasn't the PC transfer a one time deal? Or are people still going to be able to transfer their characters to console server in the future?1 -
DenMoria✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?
I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.
Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.
I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.
Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.
Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?
This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.
One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.
It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.
ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:
Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.
Where did I say anywhere about ZOS changing anything? It was purely a criticism towards myself. ZOS did a great job doing what they do. While I love ESO, don't get me wrong, it's becoming obvious that, as a long-term game for me, it probably won't be. I'm trying to learn, but finding it endlessly frustrating.
I just don't have the competitive, endlessly grinding nature for it. I could care less about "accomplishments", "trophies", V ranks or CP's. It's my own weakness.
More power to those who can. I wish I could be the same, but it doesn't look like it at this point.0 -
tmacdec✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »The only real issue I see is the PC transfers. This was a epically bad idea by Zos. While yes you are correct that if I play for one hour and you play for 12 I would have no right to complain, when I have no access to the game and you come in fresh at max level with 300+ CPs there is a slight imbalance, wouldn't you agree. Also try out bidding PC transfers on guild traders so your guild can have a store. The PC transfer issue is real, it's not going to keep me from playing and kicking and scratching my way to the top but the imbalance is real.
Wasn't the PC transfer a one time deal? Or are people still going to be able to transfer their characters to console server in the future?
PC transfer was one time. Enough to ruin console economy outskirts guild traders going for 10s of millions is kind of ridiculous but this is what's going on now.0 -
Junkogen✭✭✭✭✭Dionysusjones wrote: »The more the inequality, the more money people will potentially spend in the Crown Store to close the gap. The imbalance is deliberate. When you stop thinking about ESO as a game and start seeing it as what it really is which is a business, every decision ZOS has made makes sense.
This is a scary thought. I cannot define pay to win more plainly then the idea expressed in this post. This will destroy the game if these ideas are ZOS's endgame
They walk a fine line between pay for convenience and pay to win already. I think that's the idea. They don't want to make it obvious, but the more inconvenience in the game, the more likely people will pay for the convenience items. At the same time, the champion point systems provides clear advantages. Therefore, the convenience items also allow those that are ahead to get farther ahead thus incentivizing people to buy more "convenience" items. It's stoking the demand by design.0 -
michaelb14a_ESO2✭✭✭✭This a topic that will never be won. Reason being because there is no "right" side.
Those that enjoy and desire RPG gameplay and game design fundamentally enjoy a completely different reward system than those that like and desire action/adventure or FPS and sports games.
RPG gameplay rewards players wins, by granting skill (vertical progression)
ACTION/adventure/FPS/Sports gameplay rewards player physical skill, by granting wins. (Horrizontal progression)
Horizontal requires a level playing field, because otherwise what it's rewards (wins), mean nothing.
Vertical progression requires power gaps otherwise it's rewards (skill/power), mean nothing.
Regardless of those that use it as an attack (which it shouldn't), it IS about gratification, like all reward systems.
Horizontal progression: Reward system instantly gratifies
Vertical progression: Reward system delays gratification
In my opinion, introducing PVE/PVP leaderboards was a massive mistake, and the should of stuck to high end raid content tied into itemization/crafting. I think ZOS didn't understand traditionally why guilds raided or why PVPers PVP. Guilds/players that traditionally would partake in RPG PVP and endgame PVE raid content, simply are NOT the same players that raid/PVP for leaderboards. This leads to those competitive gamers that are justifiably interested in partaking in endgame PVE/PVP leaderboards (after all it was designed for them) being put off by pretty much everything else in the game that is RPG centric. The fact that a sword does more damage at lvl 50, than it does at lvl 1... is maddening. Equally maddening to an RPG player are things like hard and soft caps, battle leveling, and AOE caps.
NEITHER is bad, nor evil. They are just different. Some want this to be COD, some want it to be EQ/DAoC/Ultimate Online. The problem is its trying to be both.
0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can't stand it when people say they want horizontal progression for end game content in MMOs. It doesn't fit. You spend hours and hours doing vertical progression in the form of levels only to have it cease entirely?
Why do you think GW2's player base is so pitifully low? It takes 50 hours to hit level 80 and then there's ZERO progression. You're done. Ya, there's stuff to do, but what's the point?
Your character gets nothing out of horizontal progression except for more "build paths", and if you're playing to be the strongest (and complete the content) then none of those extra things matter. You'll simply always use the strongest build. If you're playing to have fun (and complete the content), then that means the content in the game is balanced so that you can succeed no matter what you do, and no decision you make truly matters.
MMOs NEED vertical progression. They're founded on it. You can call it endless grinding or a treadmill or whatever you want, but it's always the same. MMOs need that mechanic in order to succeed.
Champion Points are no different. The only problem with them right now is that there's a lack of content as you progress through the system and obtain more Champion Points.
Well @MCMancub, I just don't believe they do, not for endgame. Vertical progression is great in the beginning to transform you from a nut into a fighter. But in a multiplayer game the social aspect is the most important part of the game. That social gameplay can be competitive and casual PVP and PVE, group questing and other things. But all of these things require players to be roughly on the same level to be fun. A vertical progression system is the root for all of these problems. It unbalances PVP and PVE leaderboards and it makes it difficult for players who have put different amounts of time into the game difficult to play together. A horizontal progression system solves all these problems and gives players plenty of incentive to play. Players just need to be re-educated. They need to learn that it's more fun to play a HPS based game. Currently many players just can't envision a horizontal progression system. That's all. But that doesn't mean it won't be better.
No, they don't. You can disagree all you want, but GW2 is a strictly HPS game at end game and it has fallen flat on its face.
Please define for me what you think "social gameplay" is. What you just described is how League of Legends works, and I've never played a game with more toxicity and hate for the people you're playing with in my entire life.
The root of competition is the desire to win a prize. That prize can be physical or metaphysical, but it exists. There is no motivation to compete if there is nothing to win.
Stripping down competition to skill alone sounds like a great idea. Everyone is on a even playing field and the player who is the most skilled wins. That's great. What do they win? If all PvP is comprised of is killing others for fun based on skill, what's the point? If all PvE is comprised of is killing a boss for fun based on skill, what's the point? There has to be a reward, and that reward will always divide players into groups: those who have obtained the reward and those who haven't.
Vertical Progression is by no means perfect or fallible, but Horizontal Progression gets nothing right that actually matters in an MMO, which is longevity in the game.
EDIT: We can argue semantically about what kind of reward is the best reward. GW2 thought providing costumes and aesthetics would keep players but it clearly didn't. WoW tried by offering power. ESO has both.
GW2 however is able to welcome new players with virtually no barrier to end game or PvP. In just a few weeks you can be level 80, with full exotics and be completely competitive in PvP.
I also disagree about the "one strongest build" for GW2 PvP. For my Mesmer for instance there are at least 3 or 4 builds that are 100% viable depending on how you want to play. But whatever.
The big thing is that when ESO is 3 years old, it will present new players with a MASSIVE CP barrier which they will simply never be able to overcome for years in order to PvP competitively.0 -
UltimaJoe777✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Just add a PvP campaign that doesn't have CP active. Then the more casual players can do PvP without worry. Assuming everyone that's complaining are talking about PvP.
I'm a casual player and I do pretty darn good in PvP. My wins are more than my losses and my losses are made up of almost entirely being outnumbered.Guildmaster of Power With Numbers in PS4 NA Server's Aldmeri Dominion.
Proud Founder of the Yaysay cult! DOWN WITH THE NAYSAY CULT!! #ToxicRemedy0 -
Mitchblue✭✭✭✭Simple, someone who plays 12 hours or 1000 hours should be able to hone their skills more than someone that play's just a few. But if the 1000 hour guy is just average and the 300 hour guy is very good, the 1000 hour guy shouldn't be better just because he played more..
I don't see it as that the average guy is better because he played more, I see it as he is better because he earned more. After all just like in life time spent is equal to time earned.
I guess my opinion is up to a point skill should matter.
I work in computers, I know more than some others who have worked with computers for much longer..The CP are similar. For the fact you can't catch up to someone that just has more time to play..killing zombies? I'm not sure that's a good system.Edited by Mitchblue on July 7, 2015 8:38PMAnyone else rooting for Molag Bal?0 -
Endless-Shogun✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »The only real issue I see is the PC transfers. This was a epically bad idea by Zos. While yes you are correct that if I play for one hour and you play for 12 I would have no right to complain, when I have no access to the game and you come in fresh at max level with 300+ CPs there is a slight imbalance, wouldn't you agree. Also try out bidding PC transfers on guild traders so your guild can have a store. The PC transfer issue is real, it's not going to keep me from playing and kicking and scratching my way to the top but the imbalance is real.
Wasn't the PC transfer a one time deal? Or are people still going to be able to transfer their characters to console server in the future?
PC transfer was one time. Enough to ruin console economy outskirts guild traders going for 10s of millions is kind of ridiculous but this is what's going on now.
So much wrong.
They are not going for 10s of millions lmao- The Legion Empire -0 -
Endless-Shogun✭✭✭Not everyone is going to grind like that one guy is.
If that loser wants to put 600 hours into grinding alone, then let him be super strong!
Whats it matter?! Its what he chose to waste his time on.
Just because you work 50 hours a week more than your boss doesn't mean you can be the boss. It doesn't automatically entitle you to the training, the experience, the intelligence they possess to get to that point in life!
Just because you watch every single episode of NCIS doesn't mean you can just wake up as a detective one day!
Mr loser is putting the time in, his reward, that he is well aware of, is getting to be stronger!
Why would you automatically get to be as strong as he is just simply because you feel its gotta be fair?
The reward isn't a secret to you also, we all know about the reward. The difference is that we all won't chase after it.- The Legion Empire -1 -
Bromburak✭✭✭✭✭I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?
You made a point here, that many designers forget. How to motivate new players that are not into PvP that much
and how to guide them and show them that PvP can be really fun.
One of the reasons why CP in Non Vet campaigns are not acceptable.
This is a huge step backward when it comes to user experience in beginner PvP zones.Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?
Well if you are new you might don't know the routines, you cannot expect they know that.
You just read the chat, join TS and then stick with a group. But to be honest this is not always the case, there is barely discipline in random groups, they run all over the place, ignore crown etc..
I only can give you the advice, look for a nice guild or get some friends together.0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭[Edit] They want all the benefits of their class without the negatives; which is why you keep seeing Nightblades whine about not having instant heals and damage mitigation. Our class has awesome passives and damage, we need weaknesses in our defense in order to keep things balanced, otherwise we'll be just as overpowered as Imperials.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]Edited by ZOS_MaryB on July 7, 2015 10:03PM1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭We complain because most of us don't have nearly as much time to spend on progression as a lot of other players out there. That we would have to spend time off work/school/sleep to be able to stand up against some of the xp grinders. When a lot of us were performing just fine purely by skill, and now have no chance of catching up.
It's cramping our style.
We don't care that a level 20 has an advantage over a level 2, we can overcome that distance relatively quickly. But when we're sitting on max level waiting for the next big challenge and what happens is everybody else is getting a 1% boost every day that we log on. We fall behind, very quickly. And no amount of dedication is going to catch us up.
It's been 6 months(?) since the release of the Champion System, I have put in about 12 hours of play, because in just the first week I had already fallen so far behind. I literally have no motivation to pick the game back up.
And that's why we don't like it.
You choose the life you lead.
I fully understand how you could want ESO to be the kind of PvP game you want, but maybe it just isn't. Perhaps I would feel differently with my measly 92CP if I played more PvP, but I doubt it. I would just congratulate the more devoted players.
If you can't compete any more, get better players to play with. PvP isn't 1 on 1. If you want 1 on 1, well, this clearly isn't that game.0 -
rb2001✭✭✭✭I hate to say this, but, apparently, I will never go to Cyrodil. I can't play a game where, I can't even go to a place that is now open to me because I'm level 10 without immediately getting slaughtered. What am I supposed to do? Hide in a corner and do nothing?
I guess I'll just adventure everywhere else until I get bored and then put TESO aside until I'm ready to go get slaughtered again.
Sorry - I just don't have the time or the interest to V or CP myself to max to simply survive in 2/3rds of the game.
I want to play to enjoy and I do not enjoy competing against players that are and will always be better than this old man.
Okay - all 15 players to max I can without going to Cyrodil and then back to Oblivion, Skyrim DA and DD I guess.
Besides, I tried a group the other day and, while I could hear them and even do what they wanted me to do, I couldn't find them after about 10 minutes! Where did they go? Here groupie! groupie! groupie! Where are you?
This is a learn to play issue, and is no reason for ZOS to model the game to your lack of willpower.
One thing I've learned in life is that the people who say they can't do something are really good at convincing themselves they can't, and expecting someone else to make a change for them to make up for it.
It's a game. You can be as good as anyone else playing, if you really put your mind to it. Or maybe you just don't want to, and that's fine to, but if so, don't expect to compete with those to whom this game is serious business.
ZOS can change this game any way under the sun, easier, harder, longer to advance, quicker, pay to max your character, and the end result will be the same:
Those better players than you will still be better by the same relative amount, because they put more into it, and people who are worse will still whine and expect the developers to make up for their own personal lack of effort or shortcomings.
Where did I say anywhere about ZOS changing anything? It was purely a criticism towards myself. ZOS did a great job doing what they do. While I love ESO, don't get me wrong, it's becoming obvious that, as a long-term game for me, it probably won't be. I'm trying to learn, but finding it endlessly frustrating.
I just don't have the competitive, endlessly grinding nature for it. I could care less about "accomplishments", "trophies", V ranks or CP's. It's my own weakness.
More power to those who can. I wish I could be the same, but it doesn't look like it at this point.
Oh. My apologies @DenMoria . I misread your post (going through things kind of quickly).
My response was aimed at a general population, anyhow, who have the kind of expectation that I described, and I wanted to make that point that in any balance system, the best players will still be the best, and there will still be those expecting the game to change in some way that they will be able to catch up artificially.
I can understand the frustration part. That is cool to just mention that.1 -
rb2001✭✭✭✭Something that baffles me:
These newcomers want to be able to come in and be equal to the 2-year players, it seems.
They complain there is a gap that they cannot catch up to.
How would they feel if the situation were reversed? If they were here for 2 years, and new players came in in 2 weeks demanding that the gap is unfair. Would they feel like it is fair, because they have been there long enough to achieve these things and learn the game?1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If I play for an hour I should be the same as someone who played for 12 hours. This is pretty much what people are saying. Isn't it?
No, it's not.
It's not that time investment in the game should not be rewarded, it's about the scale of the gap this investment creates. Different people might find different amounts appropriate, but I have never seen an MMO with such an outrageously long grind to create a maxed out character.
I don't think they want us to ever be maxed out. I'm expecting continually increasing VR levels as we see new content every 4 months or so.
Perhaps this is an MMO where you need to not focus on reaching max level. No doubt, this is frustrating to really competitive individuals who just want to focus on PvP.0