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The unofficial Road ahead, Champion System needs fixing and game is golden.

Alcast
Alcast
Class Representative
@TehMagnus asked me to post this for him since he’s unable to do so. He will create a Thread on Tamrielfoundry soon and I will put the Link here if you want to discuss stuff with him. At least there you dont get banned for not having the same opinion ;)
Those are his words.

Here is the Thread on TF:
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/the-unofficial-road-ahead-champion-system-needs-fixing-and-game-is-golden/

I’ve banned for a long time from official forums but I still read what’s said around here and I see tensions are still rampant and more and more people are displeased and getting very impatient about Zenimax, yet, for me, things have never looked better (or less bad if you want). From my point of view, things are finally looking up and we have received hints that the game might finally be going in the right direction (some issues aside)!



Facts

- Console development is over.

- Most of the manpower of ZOS was invested in console release.

- There are bugs on console but nothing gamebreaking (and for the people QQing about not being able to play, you don’t know how PC release was like: your game is not broken and server access is likely mostly hardware issue which will get fixed).


This means that the workforce working hard on console dev is currently most likely ironing the bugs and there is more room to improve on the game and move forward with both platforms.


And moving forward we are (even though this might not be obvious because of ZOS’s amazing communication skills).



Moving Forward:

- Paul Sage has left the boat, he was lead creative director and the guy basically making a lot of decisions (including the ones regarding the user interface).

- It’s no coincidence, that the API function for accurate Buff/Debuff tracking are being released nor is it a coincidence that Zenimax has officially stated it’s going to implement OPTIONAL buff/debuff tracking into the base user interface: this may be linked to Paul Sage’s departure as well as Maria’s & Nick’s since we know that there has been internal fights about the UI and it seems the good guys are finally winning the war!

- The fact they are willing to rework the UI for something as complex as buff tracking leads me to believe we’re going to get some quality of life adjustments soon to the game UI and they’re gonna be more open to implementing changes to the guildstore search, bank management, inventory management and son on (@ZOS_RichLambert, if you’re /lurking: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142204/monthly-fix-your-ui-zenimax-post-2 is a nice recap of what we’ve been asking for over a year).

- PVP buffs are being removed from PVE and they announced their plans to improve the PVP experience which do sound nice in my opinion. It will refocus the game on PVP and make buff servers disappear. Strats will vary from server to server, players won’t be able to hop campaigns and thus make it harder for a single faction to dominate everything etc etc etc.

- More presence in forums. I think that besides Paul Sage’s post stating ”can’t fix Cyro guys, stop playing like you like and spread up a bit”, he hasn’t said much in the forums since launch. Rich’s /lurks show us at least one thing: They are reading, he is reading, Zenimax is at least listening now.



We can expect the game to stop stalling and move forward, improve. For me ESO TU is the real launch of the game, I know it launched over a year ago for PC and we have had no new content etc, I’ve been mad about it for months, but now comes acceptance (after rage, denial, rage, denial, depression, rage), and if like me you’re still here, then you’re not mad enough to quit anyways so might as well look forward from now on.



The next steps:

- New content, it’s almost ready, it’s gonna come. Not soon enough for our taste, but it will get here.

- Fixing the game, ZOS seems to be working on that already, next major update will probably bring a lot of bugs (as usual) but it should be fixing a lot of stuff and I don’t think we will ever again wait 5 months for totally broken mechanics like nirn to get fixed.

- VR16: I originally wrote this before VR16 was announced. In my opinion VR16 doesn’t matter, the real progression is Champion Point progression, two lousy levels that allow us to acquire end game gear are ridiculous and for new players it changes nothing except they will need even less experience to get to VR16 than they used to need to get to VR14. I don’t think the VR will be removed any time soon since they’d need to revamp big parts of the game so the players and their gear aren’t nerfed. It’s likely VR will become levels and in any case, extra VR levels where never the issue in the game (every game has leveling), the problem is the way you earn them and the ridiculous ”you finished the game, let’s kill your replayability by making you do all the quests from the other alliances <= and this is unlikely to be fixed any time soon as well because it would take too much time.

-Blockcasting: Same as for the VR16, I wrote this before no stam regen when blocking was announced. IMO, the simplest way would be to introduce this only in PVP. As for PVE, I think it will make taking harder and according to some tanks I’ve spoken with, it might be much much much harder to tank in some trials. That being said, I just notice that one of the biggest problems of this game is that it’s too easy, people QQ because it’s too easy, and when they make it harder, people QQ as well :D.





-= The Champion System =-

In my opinion, the last part of the game that is endangering it and needs serious inspection and rework is the Champion System. Since the VR16 announcement, many players and vocal people from the community have commented on this system and expressed some ideas.



Here’s some facts:

- With 1000 CP and smart point allocation you will more or less mitigate more than 50% more damage than someone with 0 CP, you will also deal more or less than 50% damage than someone with 0 CP (this depends on the class chosen and how well you spend your points of course), your sustain will also be greatly advantaged with 25% cost reduction, 25% extra regen of stam & magicka + added cost reduction to other stuff like sprinting, blocking & so on.

- The more CP you get, the easier the game gets and not only is the game already quite easy, but the new zones will scale to player’s level which means it’s unlikely the difficulty will increase thus making the game totally unchallenging for people who get a lot of CP.

- CP makes competition unfair in PVP as in PVE. You do not win by being the best at what you do, mastering your skill rotations or carefully theorycrafting your gear, you can win by just spending hours killing zombies or trolls and running in a circle.

- The Champion System are hidden levels, it’s not horizontal progression. You earn points you improve your stats, except instead of improving only your health/mgck/stam, you improve other aspects of your character (while still getting hp/mgck/stam for each point you invest). 3600 CP is actually 1440 VR levels. In reality, the level cap of this game is VR 1454.

- CS discourages new players from engaging in any competitive PVE or PVP thus slowly killing the game since most won’t bother trying because they will get excluded from groups.



ZOS spoke of Catching up mechanisms, they are not the solution:

ZOS stated that they would eventually implement catching up mechanisms to help people reach 400 CP sooner, in my opinion this won’t help. You can compare leveling (and CP grind is just like leveling) to climbing a mountain. When a player gets a catching up mechanism (elevator that takes you half the way up), this is acceptable to the player because he knows that he’s half the way to the top where the old players who begun maybe years ago are. Not only does this make the grind feel easier, but it also helps to know that maybe the level cap will increase a bit while he’s catching up to those players but at least the gap between the new level and the old player is getting smaller and smaller. It is different with the CS because even if you get to 400 CP faster thanks to catching up mechanisms, the guy who’s at 1K cp still has 600 more CP than you and by the time you reach 1000 CP, chances are he’ll be getting closer to 2000 CP. I don’t need to have a degree in psychiatry to tell you most people won’t even bother with such a long grind and will just quit before, we are not Korean players.



But I play more, so I should be stroner:

Debatable, and untrue. Not because I say so, but because when everybody reaches 3600 CP, you can keep playing and grinding experience, it will not make you stronger. There is a cap in the game but it’s far away. Once you come to admit the fact you will eventually stop progressing, you need to ask yourself if by the time you get to the point where you can’t progress anymore you want the game population to be healthy or not. If the system stays as it is, it will not be healthy and being imba in an empty game isn’t really fun IMO.



What’s the solution:

The system is so frelled that I don’t even see a solution anymore :) If Zenimax had listened to us during Champion System PTS where we predicted the issues people are only discovering today, this might have been avoided. It would be unfair to deny the power increase to the people who have spend hours and hours grinding their characters and earning CP. Removing the system is not an option either, not anymore, too much has been invested into the making of the system.



Some ideas:

- Implement a CP cap which will be raised slowly when new content gets released (this is the idea @Deltia expressed in his VR16 video). The system is still there, still salvageable, but at least you contain the power gap between the have and the have nots. This also helps you manage better the amount of ”catching up” experience you eventually give to newer players since you control where the top of the mountain is and how it moves.

- Remove CPs or implement a CP cap for end game content (trials/vdsa and PVP) which can be elevated gradually or adjusted if needed. Since you have implemented battle level to put all players entering Cyro at max level, IMO, all Cyro players should be CS leveled to 3600, that way the playing field IS even. For trials, you can also cap everybody at max level or choose another approach and cap the CP acording to the difficulty of the encounters. This will make the competition even while still allowing people with more CP than others to be stronger but only up to a certain point. This also helps you create harder content with higher CP cap and also a minimum recommended CP level to enter thus creating raiding steps for the new and old players to enjoy equally (but also giving newer players a chance to compete in equal grounds versus the older players).

- Lower the exp needed to gain CP or implement ways to earn experience at VR14 (the changes in exp gain seem good but probably won’t be enough). If the 3600 cap can be reached in a couple of months, then there really is no problem with the system :).

- Do something else, but something should be done.





TLDR:

There’s a glimpse of hope of the game moving in the right direction now that the real launch (ESO TU) has been done. Paul Sage left, we got a new Creative Director and first steps in the right decision to fix the UI have been taken. New content will be coming soon (not soon enough but still, we are still here, still haven’t quit, so it’s time to move forward, this new start is the last chance we have to make this game a great and memorable one, thus, Champion system needs to be looked into since it’s wrong in so many ways.



Remember, don’t shoot the messenger, thanks for reading till here,



Teh Magnus.
Edited by Alcast on July 6, 2015 9:57AM
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  • pjwb16_ESO
    pjwb16_ESO
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    If you cap everyone at max CP Level for trials and pvp, why you need them then ?
    ~ here since Beta

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  • Morvul
    Morvul
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    I have to agree with pretty much everything said here.

    IMHO, there are only two reasonable ways to "salvage" or "fix" the champion system.

    option a) simply divide every buff that the CP system provides by 2 or 3.
    That way, folks can still progress "endlessly", but the power differences between 100 and 1000 CP players are not completely insurmountable.

    option b) as magnus suggested above: implement a cap on CP that is faaaaaar below the 3600 cap. Something in the range of 600 seems reasonable atm. Whenever ZoS wants to introduce a new "session" they can increase that cap by another 100 CP and make the first couple hundred points faster to earn.


    To be honest, I would prefere option b, since it promotes build diversity. If I have to actually choose between stars to invest, there is options for my build to be different from another players. With option a (or the current system), everyone who sticks around for 2 or 3 years will eventually have ALL the CP (ar at least, all the CPs even remotely relevant to their build) - at that point, there is no diversity, since everyone has everything.
  • VincentBlanquin
    VincentBlanquin
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    hm, maybe bad guys left, but they like arena
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  • smokes
    smokes
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    i'll just keep re-iterating this comment over and over again.

    cadwells is the underlying issue driving the userbase apart. it needs to be removed. along with the 10 VR levels it provides. the skyshards, quests and lore can stay in the game, but the progression it provides must be removed. or else prepare for hordes of console gamers to hit VR1-5 and go WTF at cadwells and leave.

    CP needs seasonal caps that run alongside VR increases

    VR is fine, it needs rolling back to VR4, then increased to VR6 with imperial city - the fact we're at VR16 within the first year of release is absolutely bonkers.


    the only reason people wanted VR removed in the first place was because they felt forced to either painstakingly grind out 10VR levels or even more exhaustingly quest through cadwells in order to catch up to the hardcore grinders absolutely dominating pvp.

    if craglorn was the first raise in the VR cap to VR2, then later VR4 with upper craglorn, everything would be fine. it was the late implementation of cadwells that completely [snip] it.


    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 14, 2018 8:34PM
  • Alcast
    Alcast
    Class Representative
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  • GaldorP
    GaldorP
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    Excellent opening post that summarizes some problems of the Champion System very well, in my opinion :)
    Alcast wrote: »
    (@ZOS_RichLambert, if you’re /lurking: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142204/monthly-fix-your-ui-zenimax-post-2 is a nice recap of what we’ve been asking for over a year).
    The thread linked here from December 2014 is still very up to date and an excellent list of features that would be great to have as part of the basic UI, as well :)

    I would like to add one more suggestion how to improve the Champion System and turn it into an system of horizontal progression:

    Change it so that only a few abilities can be active at the same time!
    • Abilities could be unlocked once for all characters by spending a certain amount of Champion Points.
    • Once unlocked, an ability could be selected as currently active ability for a character.
    • An example could be four abilities for elemental resistances: Fire, Frost, Shock, and Poison/Disease Resistance. They all would have to be unlocked first and then only one of the four could be used as active ability at the same time.
    • Players with lots and lots of Champion Points would have more abilities to choose from, but their characters wouldn't be stronger than those of new players who have already unlocked 1 ability for each slot!
    • To avoid Champion ability switching in the middle of PvP fights or raids, the abilities could only be changed in towns and PvP starter zones by interacting with specific NPCs or Champion System shrines.
    I realize that my suggestion would require a complete rework of the Champion System so it's not a very realistic suggestion. But still, I think this would be a great system to have (a bit like runes or masteries in League of Legends, or like class abilities or weapons in Planetside 2).

    In any case, I really think there needs to be some kind of cap for the Champion System, so players need to make a selection in the end, and can't simply max every single Champion passive there is and have them all active at the same time. That cap should also be low enough so that the average player can at least hope to get there, some day!
    Edited by GaldorP on July 6, 2015 10:27AM
  • Skiserony
    Skiserony
    ✭✭✭
    I really hope they'll take this thread into account, because finally a decent complete composition of what's going on with the game has been properly made. This probably contains the information what 100 other threads try to say, but cannot really because of too much frustrations or by irrationality thinking.

    Thanks, and please @ZoS, take a look at what they try to share here.
  • Xantaria
    Xantaria
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @ZOS #HireMagnus #UnbanMagnus
    Xantaria - Lead of Chimaira
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  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    They should just boost the rate of the first few hundred cp, just to close the cap.

    But people with 1200~cp having higher stats than people with 100~ or 0 is normal though.
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • azoriangaming
    azoriangaming
    ✭✭✭✭
    nice post great work, I agree with most said here (is in full rage mode atm with the game haha)
  • Tarrin
    Tarrin
    ✭✭✭
    СP cap - 300-400 points on each major DLC + enlightenment buff for previous amount - it would be fine.
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  • parpin
    parpin
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    CP is the reason i lost interest in this game..because as casual gamer i can never and ever even get close to hard cores..i am like "why i am doing this??in matter of 5-6 months they wont even accept me in the group because i am much weaker thanks to CP"..the gap is huge and i hate playing the game and spending time and money but i am always the under dog...when you you play the game you want to have decent account not like hey i am playing this for a year but i am still weaker by far than whales..that is why when i see the game is designed for whales i lose interest.
  • WolfingHour
    WolfingHour
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    @TehMagnus, thank you for your post!

    I'll preface my questions by saying (admitting!) that I've never cared much about the CP system; I spend my points here and there without much serious thought into the matter. I basically make my decisions based on what passive (let's call them Major Stars) I want next and allocate the points below (Minor Stars) accordingly. It's simple - I don't do much PvP (almost anything nowadays, the lag got the better of me) and don't do competitive PvE.

    HOWEVER, I have been following the EU vs US vDSA thread (good stuff everyone, keep it up) and part of the conversation is about the effect of PvP buffs and CPs. That got me thinking about the state (and future) of the game, which is something I do care about. Greatly!
    Alcast wrote: »
    Not only does this make the grind feel easier, but it also helps to know that maybe the level cap will increase a bit while he’s catching up to those players but at least the gap between the new level and the old player is getting smaller and smaller. It is different with the CS because even if you get to 400 CP faster thanks to catching up mechanisms, the guy who’s at 1K cp still has 600 more CP than you and by the time you reach 1000 CP, chances are he’ll be getting closer to 2000 CP. I don’t need to have a degree in psychiatry to tell you most people won’t even bother with such a long grind and will just quit before, we are not Korean players.

    Comparing someone with 0 cp against someone with 1000 cp seems extreme. But what about 600cp against 1000k?

    I'm wondering the following - isn't the system already pre-built to deal with those gaps via the diminishing returns AND couldn't the random variance of your crits alone mitigate whatever is left after those lower returns?

    The offensive perks that straight up affect stats the most are within the reach of both 600CP player and 1kCP player,because those stats are Major Stars with low CP requisites (Weapon crit & spell crit). Then there are the minor start that are available from the get-go (Magicka DMG & Weapon DMG) which, by the time you are spending your 30th CP on a minor Star, you are at 0.3% increases which nothing really. Can't stop thinking about that and, as a consequence, Thaumaturge for instance looks so uninteresting so Blessed for my build seems the most sensible approach. (I'm a nb tank constantly looking into upping dmg)

    Either way, the 0CP player seems stuffed, so either of your suggestions (@deltia's incremental CP cap or CP cap in competitive content) or ZOE's "elevator" CP seems a step in the right direction. It even makes sense to the competitive folks - leveled playing field. These, along a SENSIBLE gear progression system* seem like way to go.

    * Not the time or the place for that discussion, but check here for a possible solution.

    EDIT: @TehMagnus can reply so it this is more of an question open to anyone.
    Edited by WolfingHour on July 6, 2015 12:14PM
  • Morvul
    Morvul
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @TehMagnus, thank you for your post!

    I'll preface my questions by saying (admitting!) that I've never cared much about the CP system; I spend my points here and there without much serious thought into the matter. I basically make my decisions based on what passive (let's call them Major Stars) I want next and allocate the points below (Minor Stars) accordingly. It's simple - I don't do much PvP (almost anything nowadays, the lag got the better of me) and don't do competitive PvE.

    HOWEVER, I have been following the EU vs US vDSA thread (good stuff everyone, keep it up) and part of the conversation is about the effect of PvP buffs and CPs. That got me thinking about the state (and future) of the game, which is something I do care about. Greatly!
    Alcast wrote: »
    Not only does this make the grind feel easier, but it also helps to know that maybe the level cap will increase a bit while he’s catching up to those players but at least the gap between the new level and the old player is getting smaller and smaller. It is different with the CS because even if you get to 400 CP faster thanks to catching up mechanisms, the guy who’s at 1K cp still has 600 more CP than you and by the time you reach 1000 CP, chances are he’ll be getting closer to 2000 CP. I don’t need to have a degree in psychiatry to tell you most people won’t even bother with such a long grind and will just quit before, we are not Korean players.

    Comparing someone with 0 cp against someone with 1000 cp seems extreme. But what about 600cp against 1000k?

    I'm wondering the following - isn't the system already pre-built to deal with those gaps via the diminishing returns AND couldn't the random variance of your crits alone mitigate whatever is left after those lower returns?

    The offensive perks that straight up affect stats the most are within the reach of both 600CP player and 1kCP player,because those stats are Major Stars with low CP requisites (Weapon crit & spell crit). Then there are the minor start that are available from the get-go (Magicka DMG & Weapon DMG) which, by the time you are spending your 30th CP on a minor Star, you are at 0.3% increases which nothing really..

    when the CP system was first presented, we all assumed that diminishing returns would take care of those differences, yes.
    However, the CP system actually released is waaaay too linear. once you go past 30 points in any star, there are essentially no more diminishing returns. And since there are a lot of usefull stars for every build, it takes a huge percentage of the 3600 obtainable CPs bevore you run into "diminishing returns" due to not having anything usefull to invest in anymore.

    To take you example of "only 0.3%" bonus per CP past 30 CP invested.
    well, that means having the option to invest 10 CP more than you (so just having 30 CP more total than you) makes me 3% better in THAT categorie - and obviously another 3% better in some red category and another 3% better in some green category...
    now if I have not 30 CP more but rather 400 more (as per your 600 to 1000 comparison), than I'm somewhere in the ballpark of 30% better then you - just because I killed more zombies then you did... And since I managed to get there bevore you did, it's reasonable that your powerleve will never, ever catch up to mine untill we both hit the 2500+ CP reaches - some eternity down the line for everyone who isn't 24/7 grinding...

    Oh, and regarding the 0 to 1000 CP comparison beeing extrem... well, that's exactly what new players will face if they are stupid enough to start playing ESO in 5 months...
    Edited by Morvul on July 6, 2015 1:38PM
  • WolfingHour
    WolfingHour
    ✭✭✭✭
    Morvul wrote: »
    @TehMagnus, thank you for your post!

    I'll preface my questions by saying (admitting!) that I've never cared much about the CP system; I spend my points here and there without much serious thought into the matter. I basically make my decisions based on what passive (let's call them Major Stars) I want next and allocate the points below (Minor Stars) accordingly. It's simple - I don't do much PvP (almost anything nowadays, the lag got the better of me) and don't do competitive PvE.

    HOWEVER, I have been following the EU vs US vDSA thread (good stuff everyone, keep it up) and part of the conversation is about the effect of PvP buffs and CPs. That got me thinking about the state (and future) of the game, which is something I do care about. Greatly!
    Alcast wrote: »
    Not only does this make the grind feel easier, but it also helps to know that maybe the level cap will increase a bit while he’s catching up to those players but at least the gap between the new level and the old player is getting smaller and smaller. It is different with the CS because even if you get to 400 CP faster thanks to catching up mechanisms, the guy who’s at 1K cp still has 600 more CP than you and by the time you reach 1000 CP, chances are he’ll be getting closer to 2000 CP. I don’t need to have a degree in psychiatry to tell you most people won’t even bother with such a long grind and will just quit before, we are not Korean players.

    Comparing someone with 0 cp against someone with 1000 cp seems extreme. But what about 600cp against 1000k?

    I'm wondering the following - isn't the system already pre-built to deal with those gaps via the diminishing returns AND couldn't the random variance of your crits alone mitigate whatever is left after those lower returns?

    The offensive perks that straight up affect stats the most are within the reach of both 600CP player and 1kCP player,because those stats are Major Stars with low CP requisites (Weapon crit & spell crit). Then there are the minor start that are available from the get-go (Magicka DMG & Weapon DMG) which, by the time you are spending your 30th CP on a minor Star, you are at 0.3% increases which nothing really..

    when the CP system was first presented, we all assumed that diminishing returns would take care of those differences, yes.
    However, the CP system actually released is waaaay too linear. once you go past 30 points in any star, there are essentially no more diminishing returns. And since there are a lot of usefull stars for every build, it takes a huge percentage of the 3600 obtainable CPs bevore you run into "diminishing returns" due to not having anything usefull to invest in anymore.

    To take you example of "only 0.3%" bonus per CP past 30 CP invested.
    well, that means having the option to invest 10 CP more than you (so just having 30 CP more total than you) makes me 3% better in THAT categorie - and obviously another 3% better in some red category and another 3% better in some green category...
    now if I have not 30 CP more but rather 400 more (as per your 600 to 1000 comparison), than I'm somewhere in the ballpark of 30% better then you - just because I killed more zombies then you did... And since I managed to get there bevore you did, it's reasonable that your powerleve will never, ever catch up to mine untill we both hit the 2500+ CP reaches - some eternity down the line for everyone who isn't 24/7 grinding...

    Oh, and regarding the 0 to 1000 CP comparison beeing extrem... well, that's exactly what new players will face if they are stupid enough to start playing ESO in 5 months...

    Are you saying that the %age per point plateaus at 0.1%? That's..... not diminishing returns. lol
  • rophez_ESO
    rophez_ESO
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    Eh - its an RPG; people want to see their characters advance. Nothing wrong with the champion system, just reduce the disparity - make the first few hundred worth more and increase the rate of diminishing returns. If you want to close the gap, work on your character for a while.
  • Zershar_Vemod
    Zershar_Vemod
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    Took him this long to get banned?
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  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    I don't care for CP tbh. I often forget I've earned them and realise I have 5-6 unspent points periodically...

    I like the option of an easier to obtain cap and agree with the 600 number floating around at the minute. Problem is people who are already Beyond a suggested cap. An easy fix for these is that the system can still track what CP they have, then when the next patch comes in and extends the cap to 800, they will already be at 750 or whatever. So everyone still gains CP but you can't access the benefits of them all just yet. Seems like a mess, but maybe a logical suggestion?

    CP are game-ruining though. Why would anyone new bother trying to compete with the top until MONTHS of grinding? Below 90 CP and want to join a decent guild? Good luck, skill isn't factored in as much as your CP lately. Skill comes after.
    Server: EU Pact
    Guild: Hodor (PvE - www.hodor-guild.eu), Chimaira (PvE)
    Character: Oriantha (Templar Healer), Zelda's Inferno (Dragonknight Tank), The Lumen Sage (Stamina Sorcerer DD), The Umbra Witch (Magicka Nightblade DD), Flirts-With-Boys (Stamina Nightblade DD), Oriantha Ellesidil (Magicka Sorcerer DD/healer), Wariantha (Magicka Warden in the making)

    Current vMA score (Templar): Pending return to game
    World Record for all trials pre-Thieves Guild
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj clear
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj speed run clear
    Returning to the game for Morrowind
  • MissBizz
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    - It’s no coincidence, that the API function for accurate Buff/Debuff tracking are being released nor is it a coincidence that Zenimax has officially stated it’s going to implement OPTIONAL buff/debuff tracking into the base user interface: this may be linked to Paul Sage’s departure as well as Maria’s & Nick’s since we know that there has been internal fights about the UI and it seems the good guys are finally winning the war!

    Does anyone have a source on that? I did see the API changes but not anything about adding buff trackers into the base game (outside of what is already available - by looking at your character sheets). Just wondering.

    [EDIT] Found the links in the API change thread stating they are "working on it"
    Edited by MissBizz on July 6, 2015 6:20PM
    Lone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord
  • nimander99
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    I love how once someone has a popular post about something then everyone and their sister's brother's uncle's step-child has to hop on the band-wagon and start touting non-sense as if it's their own idea.

    Champ System isn't going anywhere guys, get over it and move on.
    I AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY

    PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    ∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
    "Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
    "moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
    "MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
    "MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
    "MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
    "MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
    "MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
    "MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
    "MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
    "MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???

    Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP450
  • Morvul
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    Morvul wrote: »
    @TehMagnus, thank you for your post!

    I'll preface my questions by saying (admitting!) that I've never cared much about the CP system; I spend my points here and there without much serious thought into the matter. I basically make my decisions based on what passive (let's call them Major Stars) I want next and allocate the points below (Minor Stars) accordingly. It's simple - I don't do much PvP (almost anything nowadays, the lag got the better of me) and don't do competitive PvE.

    HOWEVER, I have been following the EU vs US vDSA thread (good stuff everyone, keep it up) and part of the conversation is about the effect of PvP buffs and CPs. That got me thinking about the state (and future) of the game, which is something I do care about. Greatly!
    Alcast wrote: »
    Not only does this make the grind feel easier, but it also helps to know that maybe the level cap will increase a bit while he’s catching up to those players but at least the gap between the new level and the old player is getting smaller and smaller. It is different with the CS because even if you get to 400 CP faster thanks to catching up mechanisms, the guy who’s at 1K cp still has 600 more CP than you and by the time you reach 1000 CP, chances are he’ll be getting closer to 2000 CP. I don’t need to have a degree in psychiatry to tell you most people won’t even bother with such a long grind and will just quit before, we are not Korean players.

    Comparing someone with 0 cp against someone with 1000 cp seems extreme. But what about 600cp against 1000k?

    I'm wondering the following - isn't the system already pre-built to deal with those gaps via the diminishing returns AND couldn't the random variance of your crits alone mitigate whatever is left after those lower returns?

    The offensive perks that straight up affect stats the most are within the reach of both 600CP player and 1kCP player,because those stats are Major Stars with low CP requisites (Weapon crit & spell crit). Then there are the minor start that are available from the get-go (Magicka DMG & Weapon DMG) which, by the time you are spending your 30th CP on a minor Star, you are at 0.3% increases which nothing really..

    when the CP system was first presented, we all assumed that diminishing returns would take care of those differences, yes.
    However, the CP system actually released is waaaay too linear. once you go past 30 points in any star, there are essentially no more diminishing returns. And since there are a lot of usefull stars for every build, it takes a huge percentage of the 3600 obtainable CPs bevore you run into "diminishing returns" due to not having anything usefull to invest in anymore.

    To take you example of "only 0.3%" bonus per CP past 30 CP invested.
    well, that means having the option to invest 10 CP more than you (so just having 30 CP more total than you) makes me 3% better in THAT categorie - and obviously another 3% better in some red category and another 3% better in some green category...
    now if I have not 30 CP more but rather 400 more (as per your 600 to 1000 comparison), than I'm somewhere in the ballpark of 30% better then you - just because I killed more zombies then you did... And since I managed to get there bevore you did, it's reasonable that your powerleve will never, ever catch up to mine untill we both hit the 2500+ CP reaches - some eternity down the line for everyone who isn't 24/7 grinding...

    Oh, and regarding the 0 to 1000 CP comparison beeing extrem... well, that's exactly what new players will face if they are stupid enough to start playing ESO in 5 months...

    Are you saying that the %age per point plateaus at 0.1%? That's..... not diminishing returns. lol

    I'm saying that the percentage per point plateaus at whatever it is for that specific star after 30 invested points.
    And yeah, that's not really diminishing returns
  • Lord_Draevan
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    GaldorP wrote: »

    Change it so that only a few abilities can be active at the same time!

    Or, if ZOS insists on more, have only one ability per constellation active at once. That way you'd have to choose what you want to be specialised in.
    I'm a man of few words. Any questions?
    NA/PC server
  • Erock25
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    All I can say, is as a PC player who started 1.6 with the max 70 CP points and now having 150 or so CP, I already feel like I am falling WAY behind and it motivates me less and less to log in to the game. CP will be why I quit for good.
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
    You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points
  • Rial
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    Alcast wrote: »
    At least there you dont get banned for not having the same opinion ;)

    Sorry. We'll fix that.
  • BigInGlenumbra
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    The diminishing returns in stat power the more CP you have invest is pretty linear.

    The solution is actually pretty simple. Let the people with 700 CP keep their CP, but lower the power of their stats significantly by introducing much more significant diminishing returns.

    Sure those few grinders will be mad because they wasted their lives away for something that now doesn't even matter that much, but these people are of course a very small minority and their leaving is worth the future gaining of new players.
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