End Game Grind Complaints and MMO Theory

hensatri · June 2015

So I happened across some posts complaining about the end game grind and some general dislike of the Veteran system, and one complaint I heard was that it's too grindy, and one person also said "End game should never be gaining new levels".

So, I have not reached end game in ESO yet, but I have in several other MMOs, and here is my claim that I invite your commentary on......MMO endgaming is always a grind, it can't possibly be anything other than a grind, other than gaining new levels.

So how do you handle endgame? Well some games, like LOTRO, have you reach level cap and then work on getting enough bits and pieces and tokens to trade in for better gear, which lets you beat better dungeons, to get better gear.....that is still a grind. Rather than gaining another "level" you gain another piece of equipment that gives you the extra strength to go on to the next challenge...but that is still a level by a different name. Some games, like Age of Conan and Diablo 3 (not really an MMO, but still) have you unlock basically a whole second tier of levels that grant small passive improvements to your stats or skills as you gain levels. Some games, like Guild Wars, essentually use PVP as their end game, participating in PVP zones or PVP encounters slowly builds some kind of point pool to unlock better gear, that is still a form of grinding and leveling, is it not?

So, I've gotten to end game in LOTRO, AOC, Diablo 3, and Guild Wars 2....and every end game is just some form of grinding and leveling, what else could it possibly be? Given that, I don't know if accusing the end game of being "grindy" is a valid accusation. I am open to hearing from experienced MMOers some examples of end games from MMO that would dodge this criticism.

Now I have not gotten to end game in this Game, and I acknowledge that end game grind can be pulled off well, or clumsily, so I maybe this one is clumsy for all I know, I just don't think the core charge of "grindy" against an MMO is a valid criticism. That's like criticising cotton candy for being sweet.

Sallington · June 2015

Many people might disagree, but I think once of the best ways to add longevity to end-game is gear progression/gear tiers (and the raids/dungeons/content that goes along with them). You need certain gear to have a better chance to complete a certain tier of content, which then in turn gets you geared up for the next tier of challenges. People argue about the "gear treadmill" but I've always found it satisfying and challenging if done correctly.

How ESO is now, you can basically craft or buy the best gear almost straight away after hitting VR14. After that it's just a matter of grinding out CPs. There's not a whole lot of depth of progression there.

halfbadger · June 2015

ESO's endgame in 1.5 was about perfecting your build, your tactics and your skill to get through the trials as fast as possible to get the top spot on the leaderboards.

ESO's endgame now is grind for 1 year to have champion points so that you deal twice as much damage as people with 0 champion points and then get the top spot on the leaderboard because you've killed the same mobs in a cave the most.

ThePonzzz · June 2015

Sallington wrote: »

How ESO is now, you can basically craft or buy the best gear almost straight away after hitting VR14. After that it's just a matter of grinding out CPs. There's not a whole lot of depth of progression there.

Not quite true. You can craft a really decent starter set that can last you awhile. Or grind AP in Cyrodiil (you could buy items here). But even then, there are a few pieces you have to grind out if you want the best.

Don't get me wrong, end game needs help.

Lord Xanhorn · June 2015

Sallington wrote: »

Many people might disagree, but I think once of the best ways to add longevity to end-game is gear progression/gear tiers (and the raids/dungeons/content that goes along with them). You need certain gear to have a better chance to complete a certain tier of content, which then in turn gets you geared up for the next tier of challenges. People argue about the "gear treadmill" but I've always found it satisfying and challenging if done correctly.

How ESO is now, you can basically craft or buy the best gear almost straight away after hitting VR14. After that it's just a matter of grinding out CPs. There's not a whole lot of depth of progression there.

This is exactly it. There is no gear or character progression at V14. Endgame is a mess cause all the solo players whine and complain that they don't want group content in order to have the best gear. Hell the only new content in the game since launch, Craglorn, is essentially useless due to all the complainers about so called "forced grouping" The devs have leaned heavily to the side of pleasing the solo gamer in this game so traditional end game MMO is all but nonexistent. Leaderboards are somehow supposed to keep us people interested in group happy over the long haul....btw it doesnt.

Tors · June 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

traditional end game MMO is all but nonexistent.

by "Traditional End Game MMO" I take it you mean WoW/one of its copycats?

This type of endgame is not what I am looking for in a game. What I am looking for is the more political and social side of things, which cannot be meassured in purples or yellows.

But I doubt you understand what I am talking about

Sallington · June 2015

Tors wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

traditional end game MMO is all but nonexistent.

by "Traditional End Game MMO" I take it you mean WoW/one of its copycats?

This type of endgame is not what I am looking for in a game. What I am looking for is the more political and social side of things, which cannot be meassured in purples or yellows.

But I doubt you understand what I am talking about

It doesn't seem like that's something you'll find here either, since there's basically 0 sandbox elements. That does make me long for the player cities of SWG though....

RIP

Lord Xanhorn · June 2015

Tors wrote: »

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

traditional end game MMO is all but nonexistent.

by "Traditional End Game MMO" I take it you mean WoW/one of its copycats?

This type of endgame is not what I am looking for in a game. What I am looking for is the more political and social side of things, which cannot be meassured in purples or yellows.

But I doubt you understand what I am talking about

I know what you are talking about but as ^ just said, this is not a sandbox game. So you have a themepark game with no rides to please the people who like zoos and happen to be in this themepark. Derp!

Zorrashi · June 2015

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Many people might disagree, but I think once of the best ways to add longevity to end-game is gear progression/gear tiers (and the raids/dungeons/content that goes along with them). You need certain gear to have a better chance to complete a certain tier of content, which then in turn gets you geared up for the next tier of challenges. People argue about the "gear treadmill" but I've always found it satisfying and challenging if done correctly.

How ESO is now, you can basically craft or buy the best gear almost straight away after hitting VR14. After that it's just a matter of grinding out CPs. There's not a whole lot of depth of progression there.

This is exactly it. There is no gear or character progression at V14. Endgame is a mess cause all the solo players whine and complain that they don't want group content in order to have the best gear. Hell the only new content in the game since launch, Craglorn, is essentially useless due to all the complainers about so called "forced grouping" The devs have leaned heavily to the side of pleasing the solo gamer in this game so traditional end game MMO is all but nonexistent. Leaderboards are somehow supposed to keep us people interested in group happy over the long haul....btw it doesnt.

Ok I know certain people will disagree but....Isn't that partially a good thing? ESO is not a typical MMO, nor should it try to act like one. Grinding and stern gear progression are far too punishing and monotonous for a good bulk of the players and only satisfy a small niche of players that likely view WoW as having the ideal endgame.

Now I'm not saying challenging group content doesn't have its place in ESO, it does. But that should not be the only avenue for playing endgame.

With the player base it has captured (in no small part due to their own intentional efforts--trying to attract the TES crowd and whatnot), they now have a substantial audience to try and go away from typical grinding endgame methods. Not gear progression but perhaps a more story based endgame. Focusing on adventuring and figuring out a great deal of problems ranging from both challenging to mildly easy. Making the game actually fun to the players it already has and not making them feel that they are obligated to perform a singular type of task (grinding).

hensatri · June 2015

So, all of that, and the gear progression at end game, I think that slightly misses my point.

From level 1-50, you gain levels right. Let's assume there was an awesome and rich and robust layer of gear tiers at the level cap...those gear tiers just become proxies for additional levels. It's just continuing to level under a different guise, it's not really the "end game".

End game is when you have reached the end of the progression, not when you have reached the end of numeric leveling. It seems to me that things like gear tiers are just a way to trick you into thinking you are at the end game when, in practice, you are still leveling, just the number on your sword changes instead of the number beside your portrait.

The end game problem is, I think, insoluble. Any game, single player or MMO, will eventually reach a point where you are done, you've completed everything and progressed as far as you can, but you loved the game and you want to keep playing, but once you've done everything, then you become discontent that the stream of compelling things isn't bottomless.

Bear in mind, new and fun content, dungeons, and level increases can draw the game life out quite far, but unless you keep advancing levels indefinitely, or keep coming up with proxy-level stand ins, what can you do about end-game disillusion?

Rinmaethodain · June 2015

So you want to replace one lvling (character lvl) with another lvling (gear lvling)?

People already have problems with leveling, because they want to be max lvl the moment they start and they are outraged that someone who played 10 times longer than them is higher lvl and they should be downgraded to lvl1,4,10 and be kept there.

Imagine the whining with gear lvling. Same thing as we now have with VR. People who dont want to spend time in game cry to get best gear in 5 minutes because their pride hurts when they get beaten up by people who would spent month on progressing their gear.

I really hope ZOS doesent even bother with those people who complain that someone who spent more time in game is better and focuses on real game issues and new content.

DDuke · June 2015

MaximusDargus wrote: »

So you want to replace one lvling (character lvl) with another lvling (gear lvling)?

People already have problems with leveling, because they want to be max lvl the moment they start and they are outraged that someone who played 10 times longer than them is higher lvl and they should be downgraded to lvl1,4,10 and be kept there.

Imagine the whining with gear lvling. Same thing as we now have with VR. People who dont want to spend time in game cry to get best gear in 5 minutes because their pride hurts when they get beaten up by people who would spent month on progressing their gear.

I really hope ZOS doesent even bother with those people who complain that someone who spent more time in game is better and focuses on real game issues and new content.

There's a difference:

Gear Progression (or as you've termed it, "gear leveling") rewards you for beating challenging objectives, or based on your skill as a player (e.g. reaching high Arena rankings).

Champion System Progression rewards you based on your time spent alone.

There is no aspect of player skill involved, and your "end game" is grinding goblins (or whatever happens to be best xp/hour), not beating difficult challenges or doing anything even remotely entertaining (subjective I know, but I doubt many, if any find grinding goblins interesting).

LaughingJack · June 2015

i personally think the vast majority of complainers are are using the wrong terminology - certainly from my non-mmorpg, logical-thinking POV.

EndGame: End + Game. in the olden days this used to mean "End Of Game" - yer finished. or Start again.

Endgame: noun
1. Chess. the final stage of a game, usually following the exchange of queens and the serious reduction of forces.
2. the late or final stages of any activity:
the end game of the negotiations.

now it apparently means the opposite, and an excuse for peeps to whinge and whine about lack of EndGame Content.
i mean, seriously, if you finish any other game, thats it, content finished. unless some new content is released (think "expansion") to extend the game beyond the main content.
ESO has on-going DLC plans to EXTEND CONTENT, not provide endless "EndGame" content.

it's just annoying to see peeps using the term in this manner. nearly as annoying as the rampant use of acronyms that take half a post to decipher :-)

F7sus4 · June 2015

halfbadger wrote: »

ESO's endgame now is grind for 1 year to have champion points so that you deal twice as much damage as people with 0 champion points

25% is actually max CP damage bonus, which is far away from 200%, and you can't boost it more - no matter if you have 360 CP or 3600 CP.

nimander99 · June 2015

The trick is to make the end game grind fun and rewarding

k2blader · June 2015

Sallington wrote: »

Many people might disagree, but I think once of the best ways to add longevity to end-game is gear progression/gear tiers (and the raids/dungeons/content that goes along with them). You need certain gear to have a better chance to complete a certain tier of content, which then in turn gets you geared up for the next tier of challenges. People argue about the "gear treadmill" but I've always found it satisfying and challenging if done correctly.

How ESO is now, you can basically craft or buy the best gear almost straight away after hitting VR14. After that it's just a matter of grinding out CPs. There's not a whole lot of depth of progression there.

Yep. One thing I think Zeni did totally right was to start out making crafted gear the best gear in the game. Unfortunately, they seem to be moving away from this, so you're either forced to PvE or grind gold to buy pieces only obtainable via PvE.

The best PvP gear should be entirely different from PvE gear and obtainable via PvP only. That would be a grind I'd be ok with pursuing, vs. being forced to mindlessly kill NPCs.

Dixa · June 2015

endgame here is grindy beyond vr4. it's not classic everquest grindy, or insert-korean-game-with-21342327 levels grindy, but it is grindy.

most of the drop off happens in the vr4-vr8 level ranges.

pve and pvp gear must always be seperate, or do we need to dig up pre-bc WoW videos of how raid level pve gear in a pvp setting is not the best move.