Gidorick wrote: »

I feel like people think the game is a grind now because the progression points are SO far apart. Going from one VR to the next seems so daunting. This concept tries to address that. It also attempts to feed that need to progress.

I respect that people don't care for the idea, and maybe it's because I'm not a MMO veteran, but I don't understand whats bad about it.

It's it because people like to rush to max level then stand there feeling awesome & continued progression will ruin that feeling. The continued progression effect on gear could be mitigated and doesn't have to require new month sets.

Could you explain why continued progression is ridiculous @Vizier? This is a serious question. I would like to understand.

Sure. From my perspective all a veteran level is, is a renamed level. it's still leveling. In essence ESO doesn't have a 50 level cap but rather a 64 level cap. The whole concept of the Champion Point system was predicated on balancing it by removing the veteran rank system and increasing your power through champion point distribution. If fully implemented it would be a good system because it would balance the playing field for end game and PvP. It was also pitched as a way to reduce the necessity of "grinding" because all you needed to do was level a character to level 50 and then apply your account wide champ points to bring the alt up to speed. Full implementation of the Champion point system with removal of the veteran rank system is what this game needs more than virtually anything else. It honestly can't come soon enough. What you would see is newer players actually being able to complete content with anyone and PvP not being quite so lopsided.

What you suggest totally destroys that concept and would just widen the gap between the hardcore and more casual and or the newer vs Beta players AND lengthen the grinding process for alts and new players to get to a competitive level.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

No, no, no, no

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

Lol

@Gidorick I always find your suggestions interesting. I may not always agree with the way you want them to implement on everything, but you definitely have some cool ideas. I'll offer a counter position to what you are suggesting. What if there were no levels at all? What if there were just skill points. How cool would that be? All content would be level appropriate. I'd actually prefer a system like this although I don't think they'll do it. It would be cool though (at least I think so).

Not a bad idea at all. I admit that I didn't read most of the posts in this thread, so if anyone else has said this, well, I'll be echoing them. My only concern is that from level 75-76, the xp needed to level is 1.3 million. Which means that each additional level will take increasingly longer (than veteran ranks) to reach, unless xp rewarded for things is massively adjusted. I'm pretty sure a not insignificant number of people will be unhappy with that. I'm thinking that overhauling the entire xp system in the game (which is to say, amount of xp per level and xp rewarded for EVERY quest/mob/exploration/whatever) is a bit too ambitious, let alone stat/gear rebalancing and addressing glitches and exploits after implementation.

Of course I might be totally inaccurate in my assumptions. I never was much for crunching numbers in games, never have worried about how much xp I'm getting... if anything, I think that too much xp is gained too quickly in most every RPG I've played in recent years; levelling happens too fast (because so many players have the primary goal of levelling) and the challenge of the game goes away.

Anyway, nice post.

I realized I didn't answer your question @dodgehopper_ESO! Sorry about that mate.

I like the idea of level-less progression but if skill points were added... if ANY progression were added, those would just be levels in their own right. Instead of a level number we would just refer to our SP number. Same beast, different fur. After all, levels don't really do anything themselves other than giving us a number to associate with our progression.

Gidorick wrote: »

I realized I didn't answer your question @dodgehopper_ESO! Sorry about that mate.

I like the idea of level-less progression but if skill points were added... if ANY progression were added, those would just be levels in their own right. Instead of a level number we would just refer to our SP number. Same beast, different fur. After all, levels don't really do anything themselves other than giving us a number to associate with our progression.

Here's the thing about that though. The difference between a morphed and unmorphed skill is a lot larger than just a Level 1 Morphed Skill, and a Level 4 Morphed skill. Unlocking the skills would of course matter, but I do not think it would be to that great a degree. Imagine a world where new players coming in would be able to participate with long time players, and everyone would be contributing and growing. How cool would that be? As long as there are a lot of horizontal skills (Skills that aren't necessarily making you stronger but broadening horizons) progression, it gives players options, but doesn't necessarily make them stronger than the next guy. That's really the concept I'm proposing here.

just remove vet ranks.And scale all gear to CP rank

Gidorick wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

just remove vet ranks.And scale all gear to CP rank

So a player who is level 49... with 300 CP would suddenly be able to use max gear once they achieve level 50?

the player should receive access to CP after 50 lvl.All 50+ will wear armours and stats from the gear will scale to champion rank.

infracanisub17_ESO wrote: »

People are dismissing this idea too quickly in my opinion. It isn't perfect but the alternatives of removing Vet ranks and going to level 50+CP creates so many other problems as Gidorick has laid out.

Having levels require increasing amounts of XP to reach is the only way that new players can ever hope to "catch up" to other players besides just being the person who grinds harder than the rest.

I think this idea would require a lot more work considering that each new DLC would have to increase XP rewards to allow players to reach the new levels.

The whole idea that this would create endless gear grinding is overblown. For one, we are playing an MMO and there is always going to be changing meta and some type of new gear to get.

With Gidorick's plan, wearing last months gear doesn't sound so bad considering it will only be 1 level below the top. I still have VR10-12 pcs I work into different builds. Or an easy way to compensate would be to develop improvement Materials that allow you to level gear.

The balance should always be directed towards allowing new players to catch up but also meaningful progression that feels rewarding to long-term players.

Horizontal progression by putting in new skill lines is much harder because of the balancing between different classes.

since i know 2 things:
1)we will see "seasons" of gear+NPC (or Crown_Shop) who/which will sell pre-top/old"season" gear
2)it's b2p game now

I think politic will be:
1)top players can grind CP,earn top gear from craft/trials/dungeons ofc from DLC or almost no one will not buy them
2) new players soon or later receive some ingame item which will instantly increase lvl.not to top,mb 80% of max.

The game which goes to b2p never ,never will lose the chance to get money.And instant lvl_up one of them.
For example buy TESO_digital+3 DLC and get 50 lvl+200 CP

I agree that my suggestion isn't the best possible solution @infracanisub17_ESO, but I think it's better than what we currently have and certainly better than scaling items to CP.

I think the BEST possible solution (from a best-for-mechanics perspective) would be to remove vet ranks, remove the skillpoints for those ranks, remove those points from the players who have earned them, scale all gear to level 50 and call it a day. I am NOT suggesting this. that would be terrible!!! People would be SO mad if ZOS did that.

I think what I've suggested is the best way to handle the situation with Vet Ranks, Skill points, CPs and moving forward.

Scaling to CP would require players to be level 50 + X number of CP... so if a player has a level 50 character with 400CP and that character can use the best gear in the game.... and they level a second character to level 50, that second character now can automatically use the best gear in the game?

That seems broken to me. I think CP should never be used as a measure of achievement. CP should be there for the grind and they should be there as an incentive for the player to keep playing, but not as a requirement for anything in the game.

The one aspect that no one has commented on is the fact that I'm suggesting CPs be given for each rank. That would mean that every vet 14 rank character would automatically get 26 more CP upon vet to level conversion and we would all earn CP faster as a result of this, which is something players want.

The additional CP wouldn't be so drastic that it would break the CP system. with 1 level per month, we would all get an extra 12 CP per year. No, it's not a lot... but it's something!

Also, the level-per-month increase would keep players coming back each and every month. We all KNOW that there would be a little race every month to get the next level... people would love it!

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Should a level 50 have a reasonable chance of killing a level 176 in pvp combat? Shouldn't a player who has put that much effort into the game be enabled to trounce players who haven't?

In this concept a level 176 player would have 90 skill points and a level 50 would have 50, so the disparity between the two isn't 3x as powerful.

In this concept the level 50 player could reasonably catch up to the level 176 if they put the effort in.

Thats the problem with PvP. While it would seem logical in a sort of RL setting for someone, who is lets say an expert (Lvl 176) at what theyre doing, to completely destroy someone who isnt experienced/needs more experience.

In a gaming setting. This will only disparage lower level players from returning to PvP. Believe me when I say Ive seen it before and the last thing the PvP Community in any game needs is a means for higher level players to trounce lower level players. There needs to be some sort of balancing act done by the the developers where the lower level player can compete enough that they dont feel as if PvP is hopeless for them. While giving the higher level players the ability still feel powerful and as if their investment in time and effort was worth it.

That's the difficult part, no? There isn't anything that ZOS can do to make a level 20 player that has been playing for 1 month feel powerful enough to go up against a level 50 player who has been playing for 18 months without doing a disservice to one of the players....

I'm just spitballing here but what if Cyrodiil is tweaked to be a group instance for players who have not yet reached level 50? I mean, it would make sense that 3 or 4 level 15s could take down a level 50 or 60 players. What if <50 players were required (or VERY strongly encouraged) to be in a group of 4 to play PVP and 50+ players weren't permitted to be in a group?

RSram wrote: »

I have an idea, let's put a mortality limit on each character. As you play your characters it ages and dies after so many hours of play time plus or minus the wear and tear of battle. As your character ages it gets weaker, so you have to earn enough CP to make up the difference, but eventually your character will succumb to old age and die. All of your belongings go into your inheritance account to be used by your other characters.

lol. That's a LOT like a concept I had a while ago that I never posted because I didn't think it was "Elder Scrolls"y. I didn't have the part where your character would actually DIE and go away, just the aging and offspring characters that benefited from your experiences. But honestly, I think that's a wonderful idea but they couldn't introduce a system like that into an already established game... players would play their characters differently if they knew they were going to die.

It's a really cool concept that I hope some MMO uses at some point. It would make for a really wonderful dynamic. I would even like a "lives" system where a player is only allotted X number of lives/respaws/whatever before the character is killed completely. If that player had reached a certain level and had created a child NPC character, they could then take that child... 'fast forward' a few years and then play as that child and avenge their father's death.

Really cool idea @RSram, but I don't think it solves the "what do we do with Vet Ranks" dilemma.

I've come around to your thought process @Jando. I was thinking ZOS was wanting to maintain the TOTAL XP earned level cap but have discussed lowering how much xp it takes to gain a vet level.... Since they're willing to do that, just make level 50-64.

Done.