Broken system - Grinding 700 Champion Points (screenshot)

skillastat · June 2015

Today, I show the community this screenshot I found in a french guild forum. My question is simple. Is it intended to be able to grind my CP till my eyes bleed and be WAY ahead of everyone ?

I mean, personally I have around 250 CP. I mostly PvP with one of the best guild around and there is no way I'll ever catch up to this grinding machine. I've got the inital 70 CP, then played the game as it is. I hate grinding, but I seriously play the game 28+ hours a week, sometimes even more.

I know the person who has 700 CP and I can tell he grinded day and night at the same place, over and over again. I'm not telling this guy is wrong. I think that the system is the problem. If one has the patience to stop playing the game as it is and just grind endlessly, then be it.

But the system is not rewarding hardcore players, who plays the ACTUAL game.

The system is rewarding grinding, and it's unfortunate.

EDIT: typo

Rika_shinozaki · June 2015

An mmo? Rewarding grinding? Surely you jest

Iselin · June 2015

Different strokes... play it the way you enjoy it and stop worrying about the way others play it.

The problem comes in when you think the way you enjoy playing it is the best way and you want others who play it differently to be penalized for their lack of good sense

It seems to be a competitive PVP thing that could only possibly be fixed if everyone was given the identical stats regardless of gear or CPs. Where would be the fun in that? Besides... the complaining would then just shift to the other favorite PVP gripe: "class x is OP'd... nerf them!"

Zorrashi · June 2015

If this grinding is a bug or exploit, then it needs to be fixed. Given with how they talked about the champion system and how they added measured to help later players catch up to the long-term players, I am inclined to view that gain rate as an unintended effect. In which case, the issue needs to be fixed as soon as possible.

JacksonCarter13 · June 2015

A little long but this post is proof of the broken system.

Glad you actually posted this I have been writing a draft for a week with numbers and proof which you'veready shown how absolutely absurd the champion system is and how it is co completely broken it's dumb. Let me give everyone a prime example . I have arguably completed the most out of anyone in this game. If not I'm easily top ten I have over 13.8k achievement points and have about 20 achievements left in the entire game. I am on of the top pvpr's on the dc side of NA. I have 188 or something right around there champion points. So through about 50 days of game time maybe more and completing almost everything I have about 120 less than an average EP or AD top pvp're. Now I don't blame them one bit, @zos has created a completely invalid system. So not by playing the game but by sitting in a dungeon in cyrodiil in a completely flipped campaign where my alliance can not keep up the population to actually defend 4 servers is how your character now gains progression. So not is your system just dumb, it's created a major form of imbalance where
Either I sit in a dungeon and grind 200 champ points or just simply be weaker although I play everyday. If this is what I think imagine a new player coming into the game wanting to be a competitive gamer. It's impossible to catch up for them and although I can probably catch up I'm not going to sit in a dungeon for hours when there is good pvp outside . @zos really your system is the most imbalance in an mmo I have ever see . The champion system has destroyed almost all longevity of the game especially for new players. And zos ifYour going to try and tell me 150 champion points don't make a world of difference your simply lying. - Urukai out!

Exstazik · June 2015

so it's 831 CP total.70 was given to v14.
831-70=761 CP.
If you grind in Cracked wood cave 5 hours a day with party bonus+mara,it gives you ~10 CP.
So 761/10=76,1
Totally this takes 76 days to grind this amount.

Hexyl · June 2015

And imagine a new player who join the game in the next year...

"Yeah, let's try catch up some people with 1500cp ! That's fun !"

Prizax · June 2015

Don't worry man XP/CP potions/recipes are coming soon...

coryevans_3b14_ESO · June 2015

So people are rewarded for having more time in the game and putting in more effort? WUT!!!!!!

Plus with diminishing returns at a certain point the bonus gains are very small.

Bouvin · June 2015

Exstazik wrote: »

so it's 831 CP total.70 was given to v14.
831-70=761 CP.
If you grind in Cracked wood cave 5 hours a day with party bonus+mara,it gives you ~10 CP.
So 761/10=76,1
Totally this takes 76 days to grind this amount.

That's 5 hours a day.

But open up the possibility of multiple people playing on the same account and it could be more.

For example, a husband and wife share an account and have alternating work schedules. They are both hardcore players and play 7 hours a day.

That's 14 hours per day play time on the account. About triples the speed of your calculations...

There was an AD emp not long back that had 2x the points of everyone else.. and the toon NEVER logged off. Our guess was a few college dorm buddies sharing the toon to gain ap 24-hours per day.

grimsfield · June 2015

I blame the devs. Putting something like the champion system, which encourages you to grind, is the problem. Don't blame the player who has been encouraged to do so. Blame the devs for their bad design choice. Ultimately, this choice is gonna be the reason alot of long term players quit this game. We don't want to grind forever.

JacksonCarter13 · June 2015

Thats exactly what I said, I don't blame the players they made a broken system. It's simple

Prizax · June 2015

Where is the grind spot for that :P?

Bouvin · June 2015

grimsfield wrote: »

I blame the devs. Putting something like the champion system, which encourages you to grind, is the problem. Don't blame the player who has been encouraged to do so. Blame the devs for their bad design choice. Ultimately, this choice is gonna be the reason alot of long term players quit this game. We don't want to grind forever.

Well, they did say it wouldn't require "grinding" because you'd also get them from doing normal content.

Only problem with that is that there has been no new content for like 9 months. And with the current system, you can only start getting CPs for doing content after you hit Caldwell's.

So you're 3 options are:

Grind CP by killing mobs.
Grind CP by doing Caldwell's quests.
Get CP by doing pledges/trials. But this isn't enough CP to keep up, so when that's done for the day resort to option #1 or #2.

Cernow · June 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Well, they did say it wouldn't require "grinding" because you'd also get them from doing normal content.

Only problem with that is that there has been no new content for like 9 months. And with the current system, you can only start getting CPs for doing content after you hit Caldwell's.

So you're 3 options are:
Grind CP by killing mobs.

Grind CP by doing Caldwell's quests.

Get CP by doing pledges/trials. But this isn't enough CP to keep up, so when that's done for the day resort to option #1 or #2.

Option 2) won't get you that far and it's not repeatable, so it's not really a grind. My Templar just finished Cadwell's Gold, including ALL side quests, with a bit of mob grinding along the way to break up the questing. I only adventured when the character had enlightenment, to improve my returns. I got about 90 CPs out of the whole process.

This is just a drop in the ocean compared to what some players have managed to grind out legitimately or gain via exploits and loopholes.

Such a ludicrous grind is just deeply poor and broken game design. Developers need to realise that the best way to retain players is by giving them fun and engaging gameplay, not making them slaves to the grind.

Olysja · June 2015

i've around 300 and never grinded. but tried one day and i made 18CPs. so 700 it's ok, *** system made by random scripter.

Hexyl · June 2015

Yeah..
This thread need to stay on top.

Zos, change this broken system !

skillastat · June 2015

Prizax wrote: »

Don't worry man XP/CP potions/recipes are coming soon...

The CP potions won't fix anything.

Worse, griders will have even more CP. LOL

I saw the XP you get for PvP'ing in very good organized guild. I tried to see if I could get enough to level up my NB from v6 to v7. For roughly 5-6 hours of intense fights, I got around 35% of my level. So 350,000xp. That's about 1 CP.

Now tell me that, with CP pots I'll catch up to the grinders.

Now let me shout another LOL

skillastat · June 2015

Everyone do realize that by the time we are talking, grinders are making more and more CP every hours ?

By the time the devs find a solution, these people will have 1000 CP.

pmn100b16_ESO · June 2015

The CP system is a short sighted fail. Even if I wanted to come back to this game (I mainly did pvp), I couldn't because I'm so far behind on CP points I'll never compete with others that have continued to play the game every day. The longer I don't play, the worse it gets, and the chances of picking up the game again get slim to none.

LegacyDM · June 2015

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively? Since when did we become so entitled that everyone has to equal?

This is an mmo. Some people have more time to play than others. That's life. Get used to it. If someone dedicated 5 hours a day 7 days a week to playing an mmo of course they will be ahead and it's reasonable that they should be. They dedicated more time to it. Sorry that you can't catch up. Make a life change so you too can play five hours a day 7 days a week.There problem solved.

There is absolutely no system that can be created to make everyone equal because people wanted to be rewarded for their time. If people aren't rewarded for their time than their is no incentive to play. Just make everyone vr 14 and give everyone the best gear and max champion points. Where is the fun in that?

Exstazik · June 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively? Since when did we become so entitled that everyone has to equal?

This is an mmo. Some people have more time to play than others. That's life. Get used to it. If someone dedicated 5 hours a day 7 days a week to playing an mmo of course they will be ahead and it's reasonable that they should be. They dedicated more time to it. Sorry that you can't catch up. Make a life change so you too can play five hours a day 7 days a week.There problem solved.

There is absolutely no system that can be created to make everyone equal because people wanted to be rewarded for their time. If people aren't rewarded for their time than their is no incentive to play. Just make everyone vr 14 and give everyone the best gear and max champion points. Where is the fun in that?

Remove champion system.Add 1 location per 2 month.Problem solved

Area51Visitor · June 2015

These complaints usually start when people have enough of a lead they feel secure; then they beg to nerf it so everyone else is at disadvantage.

Olivierko · June 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively?

Agreed, it's not his fault that th champion system is implemented this way, ZOS made a huge mistake by letting the cap be at 3600.

The argument was to let players have unique builds and playstyles, yet the cap is to max everything?

You should however tell your friend to get some sleep.

Taleof2Cities · June 2015

coryevans_3b14_ESO wrote: »

So people are rewarded for having more time in the game and putting in more effort? WUT!!!!!!

Plus with diminishing returns at a certain point the bonus gains are very small.

^^ THIS. ^^

Play the game how you want to with the time you're given ...

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · June 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

grimsfield wrote: »

I blame the devs. Putting something like the champion system, which encourages you to grind, is the problem. Don't blame the player who has been encouraged to do so. Blame the devs for their bad design choice. Ultimately, this choice is gonna be the reason alot of long term players quit this game. We don't want to grind forever.

Well, they did say it wouldn't require "grinding" because you'd also get them from doing normal content.

Only problem with that is that there has been no new content for like 9 months. And with the current system, you can only start getting CPs for doing content after you hit Caldwell's.

So you're 3 options are:
Grind CP by killing mobs.

Grind CP by doing Caldwell's quests.

Get CP by doing pledges/trials. But this isn't enough CP to keep up, so when that's done for the day resort to option #1 or #2.

You forget they kind of shot themselves in the foot when they wanted people to do 'normal' things. They nerfed the xp gain from alot of repeatable quests and grind spots into putty, and the xp gain from repeatable quests in crag is pennies compared to townies in Cyro. People keep saying "oh just wait till xp potions come out lol" THat's just going to make the gulf grow wider and wider. Do people not think that those at the top are going to stop grinding? No, they're going to keep gaining CPs regardless of everyone else. Already you got cases of wolf in the hen house on Console servers (yes I'm talking about you Syph). If anything instead of hardcore nerfing all the good repeatables they should have buffed them to be equal, and given people more options to do something different. They buffed Cyro to the gills, but it just draws pveers and not the dedicated pvpers that are needed to stabilize the faction. A faction gains xp bonuses based on their holdings. If your faction is at 3 bars and 2 bars are running around waving a enemy scroll like a *** bat instead of docking it and letting all the home keeps get captured, then where do those bonuses go? To your enemy of course.

This isn't a dealbreaker for me personally, but it is for alot of people. ZOS needs to put its nose to the grindstone asap. If Console was going to have taken so long to iron out, they shouldn't have even launched the game until they had all their ducks in a row. 5-5-15 would've made just as good a launch date as 4-4-14 if it meant paying players wouldn't have had to deal with this crap for months on end. Don't make the same mistake alot of other MMOS make, which is assuming the players are cash cows to be milked every day.

Cernow · June 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively? Since when did we become so entitled that everyone has to equal?

This is an mmo. Some people have more time to play than others. That's life. Get used to it. If someone dedicated 5 hours a day 7 days a week to playing an mmo of course they will be ahead and it's reasonable that they should be. They dedicated more time to it. Sorry that you can't catch up. Make a life change so you too can play five hours a day 7 days a week.There problem solved.

There is absolutely no system that can be created to make everyone equal because people wanted to be rewarded for their time. If people aren't rewarded for their time than their is no incentive to play. Just make everyone vr 14 and give everyone the best gear and max champion points. Where is the fun in that?

Yay, you mentioned entitlement. It had to happen. Such a red herring, entitlement has nothing to do with it.

This is a GAME. Successful and enjoyable games require parameters and a relatively level playing field on which to compete. Not totally equal, effort and skill should be rewarded. But everyone does need to at least be on the same ballpark or else things develop into a farce.

All games require this because it no fun being ground into the dust by another player with superhero powers. And unless you base your self worth on being able to grind other players into the dust in such a fashion, there's not a lot of fun to be had dominating another player like this either. This is as true in a MMO as it is in any other game or sport.

And yes, I'm talking mostly about PvP. The trap that so many MMOs fall into is they make their PVE game all about a never ending arms race of gear and skill progression, to keep players backsides on seats. But when this approach is translated into PvP you end up with certain players exponentially more powerful than others, thus sucking all the fun out of the game for the majority.

Yes players should be rewarded for effort and there needs to be a way to continue to improve and hone your character. But these things need to be properly balanced with caps, limits and diminishing returns. And yes I know there's some in ESO, but nowhere near enough and it's clear some huge mistakes have been made which will only get worse with time, not better.

badmojo · June 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively?

That's kind of the point of this thread, if you spend your time pvp'ing, questing & doing daily dungeons(playing the game), you end up with less champion points for your time than if you ran in circles in a Cyrodiil Delve killing mobs over and over(grinding).

By design, ZOS is encouraging everyone to grind in cyrodiil delves. Which makes those delves important for your alliance to hold, which makes "buff servers" desirable and causes imbalance between the factions. Should AD players have an easier time getting champion points simply because they have more people? It's even further screwed up when you consider that any of us can simply switch to an AD vet character and earn champion points for all our characters. So you end up with DC & EP players who actually want to keep AD's buff server, because they can go mine CP's there.

This whole issue is exactly like the XP grinds in the past that were exploited and eventually patched. The goal is to make everything return roughly the same amount of XP, or in this case champion points, because then people can really do whatever they enjoy and they won't be gimping themselves in the process.

I bet even the guy who has those 227x3 champion points in the screen shot, wishes he could go do other stuff in the game and still get the same XP/CP return. But, currently there is very little choice when you crunch the numbers.

DDuke · June 2015

Oh just you wait until this person is grinding those mobs & getting 50% more CPs with Cash Shop boosters...

These are the problems when you introduce a vertical progression system that rewards players based on time spent and time spent alone.

What happened to the good old days, when you were rewarded based on your skill as a player, rather than how many hours you put into grinding goblins?

Personofsecrets · June 2015

Sadly this is the end result of such a system. This will hurt competition in the game and really disenfranchise new players.

Players are so encouraged to use exploits and bots to gain huge number of cp that I can hardly blame them from doing what is put in front of them.

skillastat · June 2015

badmojo wrote: »

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

I really don't understand the issue here. If someone has the time to put into it why shouldn't they be rewarded respectively?

That's kind of the point of this thread, if you spend your time pvp'ing, questing & doing daily dungeons(playing the game), you end up with less champion points for your time than if you ran in circles in a Cyrodiil Delve killing mobs over and over(grinding).

This is Exactly the point of this thread.