sadownik wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People who don't know the difference between Zerging and zergballing should stop posting.

Please educate me.

It appears many people are very interested in @Xsorus ' distinction between Zerging and Zergballing...

We are waiting with bated breath.

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People who don't know the difference between Zerging and zergballing should stop posting.

Please educate me.

It appears many people are very interested in @Xsorus ' distinction between Zerging and Zergballing...

We are waiting with bated breath.

What a surprise you need a explanation on the two.

Zerging would for example be like a 50 man in a general area fighting.

Zergballing would be that 50 man stacked on top of each other while fighting.

I mean.. The balling part should of really clued you in on the difference between the two.

But you have said you saw zerg balls of 12 people... Those are your words, not mine.

Please, tell me what is the difference between the ER launch video I showed you and any 24-man zergball you would describe presently (you have most certainly called 24 man groups zerg balls).

For the record, I hate larger than 24 man groups, and my most enjoyable moments are in the 12-16 man range (which would still be zergballing based on your previous comments).

Most importantly, as I've said before, they need to provide incentives for dispersement with additional objectives in the unused Cyrodiil space.

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People who don't know the difference between Zerging and zergballing should stop posting.

Please educate me.

It appears many people are very interested in @Xsorus ' distinction between Zerging and Zergballing...

We are waiting with bated breath.

What a surprise you need a explanation on the two.

Zerging would for example be like a 50 man in a general area fighting.

Zergballing would be that 50 man stacked on top of each other while fighting.

I mean.. The balling part should of really clued you in on the difference between the two.

But you have said you saw zerg balls of 12 people... Those are your words, not mine.

Please, tell me what is the difference between the ER launch video I showed you and any 24-man zergball you would describe presently (you have most certainly called 24 man groups zerg balls).

For the record, I hate larger than 24 man groups, and my most enjoyable moments are in the 12-16 man range (which would still be zergballing based on your previous comments).

I support what WRX has said before about lower group size to 16. Id rather wait to get in group for a tighter 16, and it'd make it harder for these Brandon-South-GA 2.0 guilds.

Most importantly, as I've said before, they need to provide incentives for dispersement with addition objectives in the unused Cyrodiil space.

You realize when I say 50 I picked a random number to show an example right? You can most certainly zergball with 12. Though it's less likely to work in 1.6 cause it'll result in death most of the time.

The difference between the er group was the simple fact that they weren't stacking, they were moving together and Zerging for sure but they were spreading on al lot of fights to take out multiple clumps, their support tended to not stack either basically staying somewhat in range to heal. Don't me wrong they were very close and in some cases you could see they were trying to attempt it somewhat (the bridge fight somewhat) though it was more like they were forced into the position cause of lack of space to move.

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People who don't know the difference between Zerging and zergballing should stop posting.

Please educate me.

It appears many people are very interested in @Xsorus ' distinction between Zerging and Zergballing...

We are waiting with bated breath.

What a surprise you need a explanation on the two.

Zerging would for example be like a 50 man in a general area fighting.

Zergballing would be that 50 man stacked on top of each other while fighting.

I mean.. The balling part should of really clued you in on the difference between the two.

But you have said you saw zerg balls of 12 people... Those are your words, not mine.

Please, tell me what is the difference between the ER launch video I showed you and any 24-man zergball you would describe presently (you have most certainly called 24 man groups zerg balls).

For the record, I hate larger than 24 man groups, and my most enjoyable moments are in the 12-16 man range (which would still be zergballing based on your previous comments).

I support what WRX has said before about lower group size to 16. Id rather wait to get in group for a tighter 16, and it'd make it harder for these Brandon-South-GA 2.0 guilds.

Most importantly, as I've said before, they need to provide incentives for dispersement with addition objectives in the unused Cyrodiil space.

You realize when I say 50 I picked a random number to show an example right? You can most certainly zergball with 12. Though it's less likely to work in 1.6 cause it'll result in death most of the time.

The difference between the er group was the simple fact that they weren't stacking, they were moving together and Zerging for sure but they were spreading on al lot of fights to take out multiple clumps, their support tended to not stack either basically staying somewhat in range to heal. Don't me wrong they were very close and in some cases you could see they were trying to attempt it somewhat (the bridge fight somewhat) though it was more like they were forced into the position cause of lack of space to move.

You will find very little difference in that video than any current 24 or less man video, other than experience. Once again, you've failed to provide any substantial distinctions. They were stacking better on crown then before there even was a crown in that video, back when even very good players I respect now probably had little grasp of those tactics.

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People who don't know the difference between Zerging and zergballing should stop posting.

Please educate me.

It appears many people are very interested in @Xsorus ' distinction between Zerging and Zergballing...

We are waiting with bated breath.

What a surprise you need a explanation on the two.

Zerging would for example be like a 50 man in a general area fighting.

Zergballing would be that 50 man stacked on top of each other while fighting.

I mean.. The balling part should of really clued you in on the difference between the two.

But you have said you saw zerg balls of 12 people... Those are your words, not mine.

Please, tell me what is the difference between the ER launch video I showed you and any 24-man zergball you would describe presently (you have most certainly called 24 man groups zerg balls).

For the record, I hate larger than 24 man groups, and my most enjoyable moments are in the 12-16 man range (which would still be zergballing based on your previous comments).

I support what WRX has said before about lower group size to 16. Id rather wait to get in group for a tighter 16, and it'd make it harder for these Brandon-South-GA 2.0 guilds.

Most importantly, as I've said before, they need to provide incentives for dispersement with addition objectives in the unused Cyrodiil space.

You realize when I say 50 I picked a random number to show an example right? You can most certainly zergball with 12. Though it's less likely to work in 1.6 cause it'll result in death most of the time.

The difference between the er group was the simple fact that they weren't stacking, they were moving together and Zerging for sure but they were spreading on al lot of fights to take out multiple clumps, their support tended to not stack either basically staying somewhat in range to heal. Don't me wrong they were very close and in some cases you could see they were trying to attempt it somewhat (the bridge fight somewhat) though it was more like they were forced into the position cause of lack of space to move.

You will find very little difference in that video than any current 24 or less man video, other than experience. Once again, you've failed to provide any substantial distinctions. They were stacking better on crown then before there even was a crown in that video, back when even very good players I respect now probably had little grasp of those tactics.

It's the difference between stacking and not stacking. The crown probably helps but it's still the difference between the two, they weren't zergballing. Now maybe if a crown existed they might have done it. No clue.

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People who don't know the difference between Zerging and zergballing should stop posting.

Back for more? Please, again, tell me how the lag is '100%' the players fault, that no one stacked and spammed aoe before 1.2, and you saw 'very few, if any, zergballs before 1.6.'

Please, enlighten me with your fine, sophisticated distinction between two groups spamming aoes together... Apparently one is a 'Zergball' and the other is not, yet you fail to give any other substantial distinctions. The fact is that there is no difference. Stacking AoEs is nothing new, despite your lack of knowledge, and your points about zergballs standing still kind of shows how little you know. No major guild ever stands still, it's something that I've seen all groups from all factions do: move. Unless you're talking about flags, which once again falls at ZOS' feet for not being able to support the chokehold objectives they designed.

Just stop.

1. It is 100% of the players fault
2. No one was stacking before in a zergball before 1.2
3. That's like the 3rd time you misquoted me on zergbballing before 1.6, congrats on zero reading conprehension.
4. You can't tell the difference between a group stacking ontop of one another and another spreading out in various directions?
5. Stacking aoes isn't new. Stacking everything including your support kind of is. That resulted in death in previous games. You also didn't stay stacked after the initial bomb because it resulted in death.
6. There is multiple videos of guilds standing still spamming aoe, which is what causes the lag. The moving to the area is less of the problem.
7. There is multiple videos of guilds zergballing no where near flags. Congrats again on being wrong.

Lol wut?

I remember way way way back even before 1.2 there were zergballs, and this was on EU Auriels Bow, so to say no one done it is ludicrous.

And to address the 100% players fault again is ludicrous despite massive evidence to the contrary.

The game tech/megaserver cannot handle it, it cannot handle abilities and stuff being used in the game.

It is like saying on other games like Battlefield 4 or something, that people should not use certain weapons or vehicles cos it causes lag, it aint the players fault, it is the coding, something that is at least addressed on other genres in terms of performance.

Different genre granted, but the principle remains the same.

And lashing out calling peoples comprehension in terms of reading into scrutiny, will irritate others who have nothing to do with this particular feud that is engulfing you guys, and it also portrays you in a bad light.

But of the two of you, while I respect both of your opinions as you are both players of the game.

I side with @RadioheadSh0t on this.

Yes some people in all alliances will abuse the lag that results of certain abilities/skills being used, that is factual and have no problem with you mentioning that, again, it is due to the limitations of the game coding/megaserver coding itself that is the main root cause problem, not the players who are at best symptoms of a larger more encompassing issue.

That being, it is the game, not the player..

In this case, it is hate the game, not the player...

I didn't play EU servers so no clue if you were correct, considering aoe caps weren't present on standard and talons if say stacking was pretty stupid back then.

The rest of your post I find amusing, since If there was something in bf4 for example that crippled the server over and over again and the devs told us not to do it and did things to try and stop us from doing it and the players still did it. If blame the players... But that's just me I guess..

As a new player on ps4 I am absolutely loving this game. Though im not naive. I know that alot of problems seem to sprout from the end game and pvp, neither of which I am at or tried yet. I would be interested to see how console handles these situations though.
Also could I possibly know what the heck you mean when you are talking about zerging and zergballs? Its my one pet peeve about mmo community's that they seem to have thier own language that new players could never hope to understand without agame dictionary or something!

marshi1981 wrote: »

As a new player on ps4 I am absolutely loving this game. Though im not naive. I know that alot of problems seem to sprout from the end game and pvp, neither of which I am at or tried yet. I would be interested to see how console handles these situations though.
Also could I possibly know what the heck you mean when you are talking about zerging and zergballs? Its my one pet peeve about mmo community's that they seem to have thier own language that new players could never hope to understand without agame dictionary or something!

Zerging is generally using more numbers then what is currently the meta needs. For example in dark age of Camelot 8v8 was the main group vs group setup, while most people wouldn't consider 10 people a zerg if you ran a 10v8 in that game you would of been trashed pretty hard on the forums and basically considered a joke. The groups also policed themselves pretty well as well. If you did something like that you would be assjamed or the groups would all gang up on you constantly.

Another example would be the stealth game meta of that game, running a duo was fairly standard once you went past 4 stealthers people called us stealth zergerrs because you'd mostly be fighting solos and duos.

Closest thing to an 8 man in this game is probably a 12 man.. And even that seems like to much to me.

As for zergballing that's where you take your zerg and stack like right on top of one another. Before 1.6 the max and aoe could hit was 6 people so the more people stacked the more aoe damage you could mitigate. This resulted in people stacking up tightly on one another and spamming aoes themselves. Most groups doing this were 12 to 16 people and if they did it long enough it basically would lag the server. In 1.6 the aoe caps are different and 12 isn't as safe as before so people and slowly increased to 24 mans it seems. 24 people in a spot spamming aoes would murder the server pretty badly resulting in high ping. Get two groups doing it and it's a bloody mess all around. There was a video on the front page of some eu players doing a dc vs ep fight doing this, you can see how bad it gets

marshi1981 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

marshi1981 wrote: »

As a new player on ps4 I am absolutely loving this game. Though im not naive. I know that alot of problems seem to sprout from the end game and pvp, neither of which I am at or tried yet. I would be interested to see how console handles these situations though.
Also could I possibly know what the heck you mean when you are talking about zerging and zergballs? Its my one pet peeve about mmo community's that they seem to have thier own language that new players could never hope to understand without agame dictionary or something!

Zerging is generally using more numbers then what is currently the meta needs. For example in dark age of Camelot 8v8 was the main group vs group setup, while most people wouldn't consider 10 people a zerg if you ran a 10v8 in that game you would of been trashed pretty hard on the forums and basically considered a joke. The groups also policed themselves pretty well as well. If you did something like that you would be assjamed or the groups would all gang up on you constantly.

Another example would be the stealth game meta of that game, running a duo was fairly standard once you went past 4 stealthers people called us stealth zergerrs because you'd mostly be fighting solos and duos.

Closest thing to an 8 man in this game is probably a 12 man.. And even that seems like to much to me.

As for zergballing that's where you take your zerg and stack like right on top of one another. Before 1.6 the max and aoe could hit was 6 people so the more people stacked the more aoe damage you could mitigate. This resulted in people stacking up tightly on one another and spamming aoes themselves. Most groups doing this were 12 to 16 people and if they did it long enough it basically would lag the server. In 1.6 the aoe caps are different and 12 isn't as safe as before so people and slowly increased to 24 mans it seems. 24 people in a spot spamming aoes would murder the server pretty badly resulting in high ping. Get two groups doing it and it's a bloody mess all around. There was a video on the front page of some eu players doing a dc vs ep fight doing this, you can see how bad it gets

Thank you for the help. So basically zerging and zergballing comes down to players on pvp using too many skills in such a small area that the servers cant cope? And zerging being too many players in one area?

Zerging generally won't cause high ping on the server. Though if get to many in the area it might. Some keep sieges have pretty bad with things like 100vs100 (though that could be cause zergball groups are present for the kills.)
Black water blade seems to lack those groups so it doesn't lag like the main servers do as much

But ya the server can't cope with people like right on top of one another spamming abilities. Basically lags the server out.

marshi1981 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

marshi1981 wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

marshi1981 wrote: »

As a new player on ps4 I am absolutely loving this game. Though im not naive. I know that alot of problems seem to sprout from the end game and pvp, neither of which I am at or tried yet. I would be interested to see how console handles these situations though.
Also could I possibly know what the heck you mean when you are talking about zerging and zergballs? Its my one pet peeve about mmo community's that they seem to have thier own language that new players could never hope to understand without agame dictionary or something!

Zerging is generally using more numbers then what is currently the meta needs. For example in dark age of Camelot 8v8 was the main group vs group setup, while most people wouldn't consider 10 people a zerg if you ran a 10v8 in that game you would of been trashed pretty hard on the forums and basically considered a joke. The groups also policed themselves pretty well as well. If you did something like that you would be assjamed or the groups would all gang up on you constantly.

Another example would be the stealth game meta of that game, running a duo was fairly standard once you went past 4 stealthers people called us stealth zergerrs because you'd mostly be fighting solos and duos.

Closest thing to an 8 man in this game is probably a 12 man.. And even that seems like to much to me.

As for zergballing that's where you take your zerg and stack like right on top of one another. Before 1.6 the max and aoe could hit was 6 people so the more people stacked the more aoe damage you could mitigate. This resulted in people stacking up tightly on one another and spamming aoes themselves. Most groups doing this were 12 to 16 people and if they did it long enough it basically would lag the server. In 1.6 the aoe caps are different and 12 isn't as safe as before so people and slowly increased to 24 mans it seems. 24 people in a spot spamming aoes would murder the server pretty badly resulting in high ping. Get two groups doing it and it's a bloody mess all around. There was a video on the front page of some eu players doing a dc vs ep fight doing this, you can see how bad it gets

Thank you for the help. So basically zerging and zergballing comes down to players on pvp using too many skills in such a small area that the servers cant cope? And zerging being too many players in one area?

Zerging generally won't cause high ping on the server. Though if get to many in the area it might. Some keep sieges have pretty bad with things like 100vs100 (though that could be cause zergball groups are present for the kills.)
Black water blade seems to lack those groups so it doesn't lag like the main servers do as much

But ya the server can't cope with people like right on top of one another spamming abilities. Basically lags the server out.

Pretty poor design then really.

Oh don`t get me started again hehe.

But aye, agreed, it is.

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RadioheadSh0t wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

People who don't know the difference between Zerging and zergballing should stop posting.

Back for more? Please, again, tell me how the lag is '100%' the players fault, that no one stacked and spammed aoe before 1.2, and you saw 'very few, if any, zergballs before 1.6.'

Please, enlighten me with your fine, sophisticated distinction between two groups spamming aoes together... Apparently one is a 'Zergball' and the other is not, yet you fail to give any other substantial distinctions. The fact is that there is no difference. Stacking AoEs is nothing new, despite your lack of knowledge, and your points about zergballs standing still kind of shows how little you know. No major guild ever stands still, it's something that I've seen all groups from all factions do: move. Unless you're talking about flags, which once again falls at ZOS' feet for not being able to support the chokehold objectives they designed.

Just stop.

1. It is 100% of the players fault
2. No one was stacking before in a zergball before 1.2
3. That's like the 3rd time you misquoted me on zergbballing before 1.6, congrats on zero reading conprehension.
4. You can't tell the difference between a group stacking ontop of one another and another spreading out in various directions?
5. Stacking aoes isn't new. Stacking everything including your support kind of is. That resulted in death in previous games. You also didn't stay stacked after the initial bomb because it resulted in death.
6. There is multiple videos of guilds standing still spamming aoe, which is what causes the lag. The moving to the area is less of the problem.
7. There is multiple videos of guilds zergballing no where near flags. Congrats again on being wrong.

Lol wut?

I remember way way way back even before 1.2 there were zergballs, and this was on EU Auriels Bow, so to say no one done it is ludicrous.

And to address the 100% players fault again is ludicrous despite massive evidence to the contrary.

The game tech/megaserver cannot handle it, it cannot handle abilities and stuff being used in the game.

It is like saying on other games like Battlefield 4 or something, that people should not use certain weapons or vehicles cos it causes lag, it aint the players fault, it is the coding, something that is at least addressed on other genres in terms of performance.

Different genre granted, but the principle remains the same.

And lashing out calling peoples comprehension in terms of reading into scrutiny, will irritate others who have nothing to do with this particular feud that is engulfing you guys, and it also portrays you in a bad light.

But of the two of you, while I respect both of your opinions as you are both players of the game.

I side with @RadioheadSh0t on this.

Yes some people in all alliances will abuse the lag that results of certain abilities/skills being used, that is factual and have no problem with you mentioning that, again, it is due to the limitations of the game coding/megaserver coding itself that is the main root cause problem, not the players who are at best symptoms of a larger more encompassing issue.

That being, it is the game, not the player..

In this case, it is hate the game, not the player...

I didn't play EU servers so no clue if you were correct, considering aoe caps weren't present on standard and talons if say stacking was pretty stupid back then.

The rest of your post I find amusing, since If there was something in bf4 for example that crippled the server over and over again and the devs told us not to do it and did things to try and stop us from doing it and the players still did it. If blame the players... But that's just me I guess..

Hehe fair enough matey, and glad you had a laugh.

But to be brutally honest, Dice would never dare to say anything like that to us on the official forum or anywhere else, the BF community in the main are sharks hehe.

I believe that the existing game code/tech/servers are responsible for what happens in the actual game, and if there are problems then they should be addressed directly.

Zeni created the skills and stuff used in the game, aye ok fair enough there will always be a toxic minority who will abuse and look for loopholes to exploit, same on any MP gaming genre, but at the end of the day, the buck lies with the people who made it, and they should spend whatever money is necessary and hire whoever is necessary to isolate the problems, fix them and properly stress test before making it live.

Just my opinon, same as yours.

There are only so many times Zeni can tell us to reset our routers or spread out before we get annoyed...

...........oh wait

They probably won't be a to stop the lag until they punish zergballing enough not to do it. You say for example you saw people before 1.2 on eu doing it, I find it hard to believe because DKs would chain root any group in place doing it and drop prenerf standards on top of them, it is impossible to heal through two pre nerf standards like that. Not only did they do stupid amounts of damage the healing debuffs stacked. It was pretty much death if ya did.. I mean my group of 6 ran 2 dks and we wipe very large groups doing it over and over.

So they'd have to really punish stacking like that. At one point they had those oil catapults and meatbag punish groups pretty bad doing it, but then they allowed you to purge that snare. They also nerfed the heal debuff stacking

Also the removal aoe caps didn't change anything because stacking still is possible. They'll have to cap things like barrier/vigor and purge while doing some other things to stop it completely. Once they manage to punish it enough lag should decrease. Console should start experiencing the lag once groups start zerg balling.

Xsorus wrote: »

They probably won't be a to stop the lag until they punish zergballing enough not to do it. You say for example you saw people before 1.2 on eu doing it, I find it hard to believe because DKs would chain root any group in place doing it and drop prenerf standards on top of them, it is impossible to heal through two pre nerf standards like that. Not only did they do stupid amounts of damage the healing debuffs stacked. It was pretty much death if ya did.. I mean my group of 6 ran 2 dks and we wipe very large groups doing it over and over.

I also started seeing old-school impulse trains on EU around patch 1.1.2. Was one small patches after they changed AoE skills with unlimited targets, like Talons and Bats.

In 1.1.3 we had established trains on EU stacking different version of Barrier(before they fixed that), clearing both AA and PvP in a couple of minutes. I believe DK Standard and ulti gain was nerfed at this point.

But arguing about patches is stupid. You are correct, no one was stacking at one point, only laughable noobs. Not spreading out was suicide, because of immortal vamps and DK AoE.

You could insta-die to one guy stacking up to five Clouding Swarms on top of each other, killing your entire group in 2 sec while invis and blinking around. Than you crashed, got kicked from Cyrodiil and stuck in loading screen for half an hour and eventually timed out. Everything was so much better 1 year ago!

Giving single players insta-win buttons or immortal builds, was not a solution. That crap was just as bad.

If ZoS wants to prevent stacking, they need to re-design mechanics(hi 1.5 meter for synergy)and skills, that forces you to stack to get any benefit. It doesn't make sense otherwise. You're told by devs that stacking and spamming kills the server. But simultaneously encouraged to do so by the same guys, otherwise no heals, buffs, peels or synergies. They need to make up their mind.

Xsorus -

Nobody cares about what happened in DAOC except you.

Call me selfish, call me inconsiderate, call me whatever, I do not care. I will Zergball because these are legitimate skills that are being used with legitimate functions. I will Zergball because my opponents Zergball as it is the best strategy within the parameters and mechanics of the game that Zos has provided us. I will Zergball you because I want to win, I want AP, and I want to go to bed with an inflated ego knowing I have crushed my enemies. It is ZoS's responsibility to provide you with the tools and counterplay to efficiently and effectively put an end to my "zergballing" or whatever else I do that draw your ire, sneers, and condescending remarks that I am unskilled and ruined ESO for you. It is not my responsibility to intentionally run an inefficient build or use suboptimal tactics that conform to your preference on how the game should be played.

And you have to just STOP insisting that it was only recently that somehow people started "zergballing" or whatever specious term you are throwing out there in a desperate 'attempt to not to admit you are WRONG. I am amazed and astounded that people have told you straight up that they were "Zergballing" and in zergballing guilds and yet you insist they were not doing this. WUT?

When I was in TSYM, our guildleader group leader would intentionally use skills like lightning form so as to ensure we all knew where he was and stacked directly on top of him. When he was dissatisfied that our group of 24 was too spread out - in a 6 meter radius - he made us download the Extermintus Group Leader add one which put a huge brightly colored arrow in the middle of the screen pointing to wherever the Crown was. He wrote a guild where the our entire attack strategy was "dump all mana in PBAOE attacks." We never selected our own targets; all of these attacks were to be spammed on the exact spot where the raid leader was standing.

To further quote from his guide: "In response to DC zuper-zergs stacking to exploit their numbers for insane survivability. Get you ass to crown, stack inside of my character model, and burn everything you have. [emphasis added].

So not only we we doing it, but so were the very guilds that we were fighting. This wasn't last week, last month, or last patch. This was back last May, June - the guild leader left that game in July 2014.

While you were playing DAOC and self-policing that community back in the Spring/Summer of 2014 - it is obvious from what you posted you weren't paying attention to what was happening in ESO - I and many other posters in this thread were "zergballing." That you can sit there and type with a straight face that we somehow weren't is a level of conceit and intellectual arrogance that goes beyond stubbornness or sticking your head in the sand. I joined those raid groups, I sat in their meetings, I did their "training" runs in Cyordiil where it was drilled into our heads to STACK on the raid leader, have zero individuality regarding our thoughts and even our builds, to use his words: "Stay together! If you are in the back, sprint! If you are ahead, slow down! We call TSYM lagging behind the team limping gazelles, and if you want to know why, watch the nature channel." Yet you are going to sit there and insist that I didn't. OK, whatever

Funny, I don't remember there being a crown icon for group leader when the game launched. I seem to recall that the crown was added around the time of the lighting patch.