Simple Zerg bust solutions

FireCowCommando · June 2015

Zerging is bad for the game, a lot of people are calling out purge as the poster child for the solution.

I dont think straight removing it is the solution. And zenimax does not have the resources for a more than band aid fix in the near future (2+ months). I feel solutions that are based off changing values is within their ability and imagine suggestions in that direction are the most constructive.

Maybe have the cost increased by 3-4x so its not nearly as spammable, forcing you to use it only to save the group from a bad choice, or the entire group casting it once and blowing huge resources for it.

Alternatively have all or some of the seige weapons be not purgeable.

Thoughts? suggestions for the pvp team?

tplink3r1 · June 2015

Purge should be made a synergy(they have a CD), like purifying ritual.

vortexman11 · June 2015

Put that unstable wall bug back in game. Problem solved.

RoamingRiverElk · June 2015

I want to be able to use purge when I'm totally outnumbered by a zerg. Just make the skill affect less people so they have to activate the skill individually rather than having someone doing all the purging for them.

OtarTheMad · June 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

Put that unstable wall bug back in game. Problem solved.

Agreed, Unstable Wall was great, now it's kind of a joke. But then everyone would use it including the zergblobs so not sure if would work.

InvictoNZ · June 2015

Ability cost of ALL AoE abilities based on number of targets they hit (I doubt Zo$ could code this without adding more lag)

If you don't have enough resources, you either cannot cast it (waste of slot, force you to spread out).
OR
You cast on the number you do have resources for.

vortexman11 · June 2015

deleted

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

my favorite suggestion is simple..

give purge a cast time... at least 1.5s to 2s.

then the zerg has to move at channeled speed and cannot purge as often without alot more casting it. it also makes it interuptable.

InvictoNZ · June 2015

vortexman11 wrote: »

InvictoNZ wrote: »

Ability cost of ALL AoE abilities based on number of targets they hit (I doubt Zo$ could code this without adding more lag)

If you don't have enough resources, you either cannot cast it (waste of slot, force you to spread out).
OR
You cast on the number you do have resources for.

IN WHAT WAY DOES THIS STOP ZERGING? AGAIN someone gives an idea that hinders smaller groups. So because its 5 v 20 all the abilities of the 5 people should cost more? Seriously?

This would help zergs, because they have more numbers to cast more skills.

Sure, there would have to be a different between heals/purge and dps.

If the zerg could not purge the entire group in 1 low cost spell, it might help.

vortexman11 · June 2015

InvictoNZ wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

InvictoNZ wrote: »

Ability cost of ALL AoE abilities based on number of targets they hit (I doubt Zo$ could code this without adding more lag)

If you don't have enough resources, you either cannot cast it (waste of slot, force you to spread out).
OR
You cast on the number you do have resources for.

IN WHAT WAY DOES THIS STOP ZERGING? AGAIN someone gives an idea that hinders smaller groups. So because its 5 v 20 all the abilities of the 5 people should cost more? Seriously?

This would help zergs, because they have more numbers to cast more skills.

Sure, there would have to be a different between heals/purge and dps.

If the zerg could not purge the entire group in 1 low cost spell, it might help.

Ohk then, you meant purge, then that makes sense. I will gladly delete my post

DezIsDead · June 2015

Please don't changed purge, as a magicka build with very little stam I use purge to break free from soft CC's like talon spam, as well as to get those filthy debuts off of me. I'm sure better alternatives can be found then that.

Sanct16 · June 2015

Make it so that purging triggers inevitable detonation.

Draxys · June 2015

Purge bug plz

DanTeales_Inferno · June 2015

Sanct16 wrote: »

Make it so that purging triggers inevitable detonation.

It doesnt already ? In the tooltip it says "if effect is dispelled or removed early then the explosion is triggered immediately", if dispell or removed early doesnt count as purging, then what does ?

Sanct16 · June 2015

DanTeales_Inferno wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Make it so that purging triggers inevitable detonation.

It doesnt already ? In the tooltip it says "if effect is dispelled or removed early then the explosion is triggered immediately", if dispell or removed early doesnt count as purging, then what does ?

pretty sure that i spammed purge while having it on me and nothing happened.

Aquanova · June 2015

Leave purge alone. Adding cast time or cool downs or cost isn't going to bust the zerg, it'll just force it to increase it's size to maintain purge being up as much as it is now. The only way to bust a zerg is with your own zerg.....may the best error biggest zerg win

FENGRUSH · June 2015

Aquanova wrote: »

Leave purge alone. Adding cast time or cool downs or cost isn't going to bust the zerg, it'll just force it to increase it's size to maintain purge being up as much as it is now. The only way to bust a zerg is with your own zerg.....may the best error biggest zerg win

EP-NA-Thornblade.

Waylander · June 2015

Roll it back to 1.5.

Sure it was also a bit broken, but better than this.

Sorry to anyone who ground champ points.

Aquanova · June 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Aquanova wrote: »

Leave purge alone. Adding cast time or cool downs or cost isn't going to bust the zerg, it'll just force it to increase it's size to maintain purge being up as much as it is now. The only way to bust a zerg is with your own zerg.....may the best error biggest zerg win

EP-NA-Thornblade.

I think that zerg followed Havoc to chill. What's left is road kill

Trayyacakes · June 2015

Numbers will always have the advantage. They have more heals, more damage, more ultimates, and still, to a lesser extent than 1.5, receive DR from AOE by grouping, but if you just:

1. Bring back dynamic ult (yes the ult gain will be insane with no AOE caps, but that is the point. 24 people stacked need incentive to spread out.)
2. Drop the cost of Standard back down to 200, drop nova to 200 as well because it should have never cost more than a standard.
3. Make the Oil Cata snare unpurgeable.
4. revert negate back to 1.5 status. Possibly even allow negate to remove barrier, but I don't think it would be necessary.

You have just given a small group a way to compete. The small group still has less heals, less damage, and less dr, but has more ultimate gain. They have a way to reduce the zergs healing that can't be purged via Standard. Standard also provides much needed area denial. Also with the lower cost on the ability there could possibly be less meteors flying everywhere. Oil catapults will slow down the zerg balls helping you control them a little bit. Lastly pre 1.5 negates, enough said.

I don't think purge or barrier need to be nerfed. I don't think there needs to be an "anti zerg skill."

Dealing with disorganized pugs zerging should be doable with an organized 8 man.

The 24 man zerg balls should not be able to be owned by a lesser number of pugs, However 8 highly skilled players who use terrain, choke points, surprise and superior tactics should have a chance to split them up and take them out. The trick to dealing with the zerg ball is separating them. Everyone knows group specs are awful in smaller scale fights. I believe the 4 things I mentioned above will give small groups the opportunity to wipe these groups. It should not be easy, and every 8man shouldn't be able to do it, but it should be very possible. Right now it isn't.

Draxys · June 2015

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Numbers will always have the advantage. They have more heals, more damage, more ultimates, and still, to a lesser extent than 1.5, receive DR from AOE by grouping, but if you just:

1. Bring back dynamic ult (yes the ult gain will be insane with no AOE caps, but that is the point. 24 people stacked need incentive to spread out.)
2. Drop the cost of Standard back down to 200, drop nova to 200 as well because it should have never cost more than a standard.
3. Make the Oil Cata snare unpurgeable.
4. revert negate back to 1.5 status. Possibly even allow negate to remove barrier, but I don't think it would be necessary.

You have just given a small group a way to compete. The small group still has less heals, less damage, and less dr, but has more ultimate gain. They have a way to reduce the zergs healing that can't be purged via Standard. Standard also provides much needed area denial. Also with the lower cost on the ability there could possibly be less meteors flying everywhere. Oil catapults will slow down the zerg balls helping you control them a little bit. Lastly pre 1.5 negates, enough said.

I don't think purge or barrier need to be nerfed. I don't think there needs to be an "anti zerg skill."

Dealing with disorganized pugs zerging should be doable with an organized 8 man.

The 24 man zerg balls should not be able to be owned by a lesser number of pugs, However 8 highly skilled players who use terrain, choke points, surprise and superior tactics should have a chance to split them up and take them out. The trick to dealing with the zerg ball is separating them. Everyone knows group specs are awful in smaller scale fights. I believe the 4 things I mentioned above will give small groups the opportunity to wipe these groups. It should not be easy, and every 8man shouldn't be able to do it, but it should be very possible. Right now it isn't.

^
Everything this guy just said.

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS, WHEELER

Tripe · June 2015

Most of the ideas in these threads don't work for mechanical reasons. People always think they have the simple solution, but they don't look past the use and mechanics of that one thing. You have look at how the change effects everything. e.g. classes, other abilities, gameplay, balance, PVE

Without purge, what choices do some classes have to get rid of detrimental effects? Does a solo player want to spend half or three quarters of their magik pool to get rid of an effect? how bout with a cooldown? Groups would still have a huge advantage with a purge rotation. Try rotating an ability in a pug or running around solo. How would it affect siege damage? How would it affect every other ability with a duration? Putting a cast time on an ability that is meant to get rid of life threatening ailments just doesn't work. You could dead by the time you get it off. In a lot of situations, it wouldnt even be worth trying to purge siege. Purge the last tick and eat the first two along with the initial hit?

More reasons and stuff here.

FireCowCommando · June 2015

Tripe wrote: »

Most of the ideas in these threads don't work for mechanical reasons. People always think they have the simple solution, but they don't look past the use and mechanics of that one thing. You have look at how the change effects everything. e.g. classes, other abilities, gameplay, balance, PVE

Without purge, what choices do some classes have to get rid of detrimental effects? Does a solo player want to spend half or three quarters of their magik pool to get rid of an effect? how bout with a cooldown? Groups would still have a huge advantage with a purge rotation. Try rotating an ability in a pug or running around solo. How would it affect siege damage? How would it affect every other ability with a duration? Putting a cast time on an ability that is meant to get rid of life threatening ailments just doesn't work. You could dead by the time you get it off. In a lot of situations, it wouldnt even be worth trying to purge siege. Purge the last tick and eat the first two along with the initial hit?

More reasons and stuff here.

You and others have pointed out already that the increased cost for some classes or builds. A bad idea.

What about limiting the number of players purge can affect to only 4? 1 player per group. With a full raid requiring 6 purges to remove getting hit once combined with another suggestion, oil catapult not being purgeable/ignores rapid.

Forces zergs to use purge much more for a lesser effect, and the zerg ball itself more manageable since it can be AoE slowed and then resource drained via purge.

>Does not effect solo/small group which plays the same, potentially a small change, but definitely in favor against zerging.

Tripe · June 2015

I really haven't put much thought into it at all. What is the main gripe people have with purge? Is it that they can't kill a zerg with siege? Maybe the problem isn't with purge but with siege. Larger initial hit, lower damage dots? I don't know.

This is a group game and larger groups will almost always have an edge no matter what you do. Sometimes I think most of the complains come from people who just want to be able to solo 20 people. I know it can suck when you're in a 6v40, but at that point it isn't really a purge issue anymore.

Waylander · June 2015

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Numbers will always have the advantage. They have more heals, more damage, more ultimates, and still, to a lesser extent than 1.5, receive DR from AOE by grouping, but if you just:

1. Bring back dynamic ult (yes the ult gain will be insane with no AOE caps, but that is the point. 24 people stacked need incentive to spread out.)
2. Drop the cost of Standard back down to 200, drop nova to 200 as well because it should have never cost more than a standard.
3. Make the Oil Cata snare unpurgeable.
4. revert negate back to 1.5 status. Possibly even allow negate to remove barrier, but I don't think it would be necessary.

You have just given a small group a way to compete. The small group still has less heals, less damage, and less dr, but has more ultimate gain. They have a way to reduce the zergs healing that can't be purged via Standard. Standard also provides much needed area denial. Also with the lower cost on the ability there could possibly be less meteors flying everywhere. Oil catapults will slow down the zerg balls helping you control them a little bit. Lastly pre 1.5 negates, enough said.

I don't think purge or barrier need to be nerfed. I don't think there needs to be an "anti zerg skill."

Dealing with disorganized pugs zerging should be doable with an organized 8 man.

The 24 man zerg balls should not be able to be owned by a lesser number of pugs, However 8 highly skilled players who use terrain, choke points, surprise and superior tactics should have a chance to split them up and take them out. The trick to dealing with the zerg ball is separating them. Everyone knows group specs are awful in smaller scale fights. I believe the 4 things I mentioned above will give small groups the opportunity to wipe these groups. It should not be easy, and every 8man shouldn't be able to do it, but it should be very possible. Right now it isn't.

Good post ^

Think we had a good small group vs group against your group last night between sej and allessia (was trying to tee something up with Valhas a bit further away from the pug transit routes). Best fun we had all night.

Tripe · June 2015

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Numbers will always have the advantage. They have more heals, more damage, more ultimates, and still, to a lesser extent than 1.5, receive DR from AOE by grouping, but if you just:

1. Bring back dynamic ult (yes the ult gain will be insane with no AOE caps, but that is the point. 24 people stacked need incentive to spread out.)
2. Drop the cost of Standard back down to 200, drop nova to 200 as well because it should have never cost more than a standard.
3. Make the Oil Cata snare unpurgeable.
4. revert negate back to 1.5 status. Possibly even allow negate to remove barrier, but I don't think it would be necessary.

You have just given a small group a way to compete. The small group still has less heals, less damage, and less dr, but has more ultimate gain. They have a way to reduce the zergs healing that can't be purged via Standard. Standard also provides much needed area denial. Also with the lower cost on the ability there could possibly be less meteors flying everywhere. Oil catapults will slow down the zerg balls helping you control them a little bit. Lastly pre 1.5 negates, enough said.

I don't think purge or barrier need to be nerfed. I don't think there needs to be an "anti zerg skill."

Dealing with disorganized pugs zerging should be doable with an organized 8 man.

The 24 man zerg balls should not be able to be owned by a lesser number of pugs, However 8 highly skilled players who use terrain, choke points, surprise and superior tactics should have a chance to split them up and take them out. The trick to dealing with the zerg ball is separating them. Everyone knows group specs are awful in smaller scale fights. I believe the 4 things I mentioned above will give small groups the opportunity to wipe these groups. It should not be easy, and every 8man shouldn't be able to do it, but it should be very possible. Right now it isn't.

What happens when the zerg comes in, drops a nova and standard on you, and negates your standard? Wait...we're back to negate wars aren't we? Or do you just want to drop standards every three seconds if people are stacked?

Trayyacakes · June 2015

Tripe wrote: »

Trayyacakes wrote: »

Numbers will always have the advantage. They have more heals, more damage, more ultimates, and still, to a lesser extent than 1.5, receive DR from AOE by grouping, but if you just:

1. Bring back dynamic ult (yes the ult gain will be insane with no AOE caps, but that is the point. 24 people stacked need incentive to spread out.)
2. Drop the cost of Standard back down to 200, drop nova to 200 as well because it should have never cost more than a standard.
3. Make the Oil Cata snare unpurgeable.
4. revert negate back to 1.5 status. Possibly even allow negate to remove barrier, but I don't think it would be necessary.

You have just given a small group a way to compete. The small group still has less heals, less damage, and less dr, but has more ultimate gain. They have a way to reduce the zergs healing that can't be purged via Standard. Standard also provides much needed area denial. Also with the lower cost on the ability there could possibly be less meteors flying everywhere. Oil catapults will slow down the zerg balls helping you control them a little bit. Lastly pre 1.5 negates, enough said.

I don't think purge or barrier need to be nerfed. I don't think there needs to be an "anti zerg skill."

Dealing with disorganized pugs zerging should be doable with an organized 8 man.

The 24 man zerg balls should not be able to be owned by a lesser number of pugs, However 8 highly skilled players who use terrain, choke points, surprise and superior tactics should have a chance to split them up and take them out. The trick to dealing with the zerg ball is separating them. Everyone knows group specs are awful in smaller scale fights. I believe the 4 things I mentioned above will give small groups the opportunity to wipe these groups. It should not be easy, and every 8man shouldn't be able to do it, but it should be very possible. Right now it isn't.

What happens when the zerg comes in, drops a nova and standard on you, and negates your standard? Wait...we're back to negate wars aren't we? Or do you just want to drop standards every three seconds if people are stacked?

The same thing that happened in 1.5, you move or die. If the zerg stays stacked in one spot do they not deserve to die from aoe bombs?

As to the dropping standards every 3 seconds, it would only be that way for a week to a month before the large groups start to adapt. the initial bomb and ult dump would/should be about busting the zerg, spreading them out, not necessarily killing all of them. If a group insists on stacking on crown and just purging and healing while spamming AOE, they need a counter. The counter should not be bring more.

When a zerg gets bombed by a lesser force and has to spread out, then things get interesting. That should be the whole goal of the smaller force. To break apart the zerg, spread them out into manageable fights. If they don't separate, yes I think ults should be dumped on their faces over and over and over. The small force should try to break them up while picking them off one at a time. The large force should spread for initial bomb so they don't all die, then regroup and counter attack. It would be more interesting than what we have now. If the larger force reacts fast enough then of course the smaller group will die, unless they run. The advantage is still with the numbers: more heals, more damage, less damage taken from AOE due to AOE soft cap.

Right now on live, there is no way to split the zerg, zerg blob, bomb group whatever you want to call it. Siege is healed and purged through. If you get near the zerg one of 2 things happens: they train roll over you, or you have an equal sized zerg and the lag wars begin.

If there is a way that I am not aware of to split up the zerg please inform me. If you have a way you think that would be better for balance but still give a way for skilled small groups to split the zerg please share. If I come off a little defensive/snarky I don't intend to. I do think this discussion is worth having, and who knows ZOS may actually read it and changes may happen. It's possible right, doubtful, but possible.

Tripe · June 2015

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution for you. I just know that this is a group oriented game and you stick with your group or you're probably dead. If people don't stack, I don't know how they're getting into a breach and taking a keep. It sounds like it would probably encourage more zerging. Would you send in your first group of six to face the defenders, wait a couple of seconds and send another? Would you bring even more people to open multiple breaches? Chances are, "zergs" would just adapt and find a new way to combat the new mechanics, if they were an issue at all.

I kept hearing from people that 1.6 was going to be smaller fights, more single target. People just adapted.

vichoi · June 2015

The problem of Zerg is they move fast, nothing can stop them from moving, especially inside a keep.
The damage increase of Siege is trying to stop Zerg, but as they're running too fast inside a keep, siege is not a good solution. Magicka detonation is suicide if your casting it to a Zerg because of the cast time.

My suggestion is to introduce a trap, which explode when more than 5 enemy step on it at the same time and instantly kill them, and the trap can last more a long time (1-2 minutes).

Trayyacakes · June 2015

vichoi wrote: »

The problem of Zerg is they move fast, nothing can stop them from moving, especially inside a keep.
The damage increase of Siege is trying to stop Zerg, but as they're running too fast inside a keep, siege is not a good solution. Magicka detonation is suicide if your casting it to a Zerg because of the cast time.

My suggestion is to introduce a trap, which explode when more than 5 enemy step on it at the same time and instantly kill them, and the trap can last more a long time (1-2 minutes).

No this is not what the game needs. The game does not need a "zerg be gone" button."

I know everyone likes to say that good zergball groups are a bunch of no skill monkeys just following crown spamming one button, but this isn't true. Especially not for the leaders of these groups. The good groups have every skill on their bar for support of the whole unit. whether it be support through damage/heals/sheilds/whatever.

This game needs ways to make these groups split up. With this game the way it is, a CC can't make the group split because everyone can break free/roll dodge and then hide back in the zerg. The way to make a group split up is to overwhelm them and make them panic. ex.

1. When siege was first buffed after 1.6 good groups still stacked healed and purged, but bad groups panicked and split into all directions.
2. At the very beginning of the game when I think, correct me if I'm wrong, talons and Standard had no target cap, talons had an 8m range and did more damage, and standard was way more powerful than it is now and the heal debuff could stack, DKs could charge into a zerg spam talons and drop standards if the group didn't split it died.
3. Broken vampire, again at the beginning of the game, If you balled you fed him ult, but good groups would spread out leave one guy on him to lock him down and range him, if it was a dk you ranged him with resto heavies. The sorc clouding swarm variant was more rare and even more broken, so I'll leave that nightmare off the list.
4. Prior to 1.6 when with dynamic ult gain and longer ttk a good group could bomb the zerge with ults get a few kills in the initial bomb, and then the zerg would either spread to avoid death or it would become a negate war.

Now numbers 2 and 3 on the list were obviously broken game mechanics and needed fixing, but there still needs to be a way in game to split up these groups and give lesser numbers a chance. We are losing an entire faction in NA over the zerg meta. If Cyrodiil is just going to become zerg vs zerg and that is the vision ZoS has for it then they need to give us small scale pvp. Other wise give the small groups some kind of advantage over fighting larger numbers. Please just bring back dynamic ult gain because that is the only thing that can't be used against the small man, but can be used against the zerg. If that means taking away battle roar, then go ahead. Take the passive give DKs a different resource management passive and be done with it.

Tripe wrote: »

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution for you. I just know that this is a group oriented game and you stick with your group or you're probably dead. If people don't stack, I don't know how they're getting into a breach and taking a keep. It sounds like it would probably encourage more zerging. Would you send in your first group of six to face the defenders, wait a couple of seconds and send another? Would you bring even more people to open multiple breaches? Chances are, "zergs" would just adapt and find a new way to combat the new mechanics, if they were an issue at all.

I kept hearing from people that 1.6 was going to be smaller fights, more single target. People just adapted.

I guess I just assumed that they would still barrier rapid through the breach. They would just have to time it so that they went though when the oil cat wasn't hitting it /shrug, and of course zergs would adapt. Zerging will always be the most effective way to pvp in cyrodiil. We aren't talking about changing that, or at least I'm not. I am talking about giving outnumbered forces a chance. Anything to do with siege while it could help is not the answer. The less people you have the less siege you can put down. It can't be an ability, because if the ability is effective enough it will be used by the zerg too, and they will have more of it. There should not be an ability that will one shot a group of more than 6 either. Dynamic ult helps the small man without crippling the zerg. The zerg still had more heals, more damage, more barrier, more purge, more siege. Why shouldn't the smaller group against ridiculous numbers have more ult gain? The small group will still loosed a majority of the time, but they would have a chance.

Alcast · June 2015

Give More AP to the smaller groups and voila.

AP is all what the Zerg groups care for