Discrepencies between Werewolves and Vampires in ESO [PvE]

Shineko · June 2015

I'm going to get straight to the point.
Werewolves level their skill line incredibly fast regardless of level and for a vampire it's variable but can take weeks.

It is not uncommon for players to become a werewolf or vampire before they even hit level 10 if they really try hard enough to. The werewolf quest is incredibly easy compared to the vampire quest and leveling the werewolf line is different than vampires in that vampires need EXP to level while werewolves need kills.

Solutions to the discrepency: Reduce difficulty in both the vampire quest further [because yay stairs] as well as improve the leveling mechanic for vampirism skill line or make lycanthropy skill line more difficult to level.

Instead of having vampirism use EXP, why not have it use a feeding mechanic.
Instead of having vampires getting stronger the longer they go without feeding, why not make them stronger when they have already fed?
Instead of having vampires with a static set of abilities and passives, why not have them change with the time of day, interior vs exterior, or whether conditions?

I'm not generally against vampires having a weakness to fire but there is literally no reason as a vampire to ever feed unless you run into a boss you can't beat because fire.

Why not try a thought at giving vampires night vision at night or in dark interiors based on light level.

As it stands, both diseases have trade offs. Both diseases have strengths and defined weaknesses. Werewolf transformations are bad ass. Vamprism is boring. For vampires, feeding is an awesome mechanic that is almost never used because it makes you weaker when you do. This is totally stupid. Vampires should be stronger when fed and weaker when desperately hungry.

tl;dr. Werewolf and Vampirism leveling is awkward. While both have clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, werweolves are awesome to play while vampires are passively boring. Please make feeding actually relevant to vampires by skill line progression and/or inverting the stages so that feeding makes you stronger not weaker.

TheShadowScout · June 2015

Personally I really would wish ESO vampires and werewolves getting a bit back to the classics...

For one, being treated as monsters by the guard.

For werewolves that'd mean a huge bounty when they go furry within sight of a citizen.

For vampires, the same if they get found out, which I'd handle by giving them an option to disguise themselves as living (like count Ravenwatch does in the first meeting) by "lowering their vampirism stage one level", and an "detection chance" depending on stage. Meaning at stage one the disguise would turn them back to human appereance with no detection chance, but if they let things slide... undisguised I'd like to see a 20% chance at stage 1, 40% at stage 2, 80% at stage 3, and automatic at stage 4... and then to balance give them some way to extend stage 1 through repeated feeding, maybe. Say, each feeding at stage 1 adds another 30 minutes to the duration. That way, any vampire who likes going to town would be well served by gourging themselves as to keep up their masquerade while within sight of the guards...

And then... there are those pesky classic notions as of "werewolves are influenced by the moon" or "vampires come out at night" that I'd love to see reflected in ESO as well.

Not that I'd be asking for sunlight damage to vamps... but following the original dracula novel, I wouldn't mind seeing the vampire abilities being way less effective during daylight hours... half effect... double cost... perhaps even unavailable? I'd love to see vampires weak during the day, strong during the night. And yes, I wouldn't mind some buff to their stuff for nighttime if they got a debuff during daytime.

As for the werewolves... oh, how I'd love to see them unable to transform during new moon nights, yet suffering from involuntary transformations during full moon nights, all the full moon night long, with the accompaning logical troubles... guards killing them on sight, crafting stations becoming inoperable thanks to their paws, vendors or quest NPCs refusing to talk to them and cry for the guards instead... And maybe even an automatic "hunt this big beast" quest to fill their bellies (also a classic piece of lore, that werewolves have to hunt and kill something when under the full moons influence), with a lenghty debuff if they let a gametime full moon pass without hunting...

Well, that's my half septim for the bloodsuckers and doggies anyhow...

nastuug · June 2015

Balance the passives/pros/cons between both and all will be fine.

Merlin13KAGL · June 2015

Shineko wrote: »

I'm going to get straight to the point.
Werewolves level their skill line incredibly fast regardless of level and for a vampire it's variable but can take weeks.

It is not uncommon for players to become a werewolf or vampire before they even hit level 10 if they really try hard enough to. The werewolf quest is incredibly easy compared to the vampire quest and leveling the werewolf line is different than vampires in that vampires need EXP to level while werewolves need kills.

Solutions to the discrepency: Reduce difficulty in both the vampire quest further [because yay stairs] as well as improve the leveling mechanic for vampirism skill line or make lycanthropy skill line more difficult to level.

Seriously? You can obtain it by coward kiting the mobs (make that mob, as the remaining ones are usually never attacked) in a circle for an hour at a level significantly lower than ever intended.

You want the skillup to use the feeding mechanic? The quest doesn't even require the feeding mechanic anymore...The original feed requirement for the quest is no longer even there - now it's a kill requirement.
Most of the NPC's are singles, so you take no risk of multiple damage sources.
The NPC typically kited at low level in a zone your L10 couldn't even viably set foot in has no ranged attacks and does not have the typical time-out tether that every other mob in the game has.
NPC (again, at level 42) would take little to no damage from your L3-10 weapon and the regen the NPC should have would outpace the remaining damage. Your damage would automatically be cut in half by nature of the higher level armor the NPC wears.
The NPC never CC's you.
The NPC never stuns you.
The NPC never sprints one time to catch you. Pretty sure he'd out-stamina you in a heartbeat.
There are enough NPC's to properly complete the quest, so there should be no respawn timer for this instanced area. It should be an all or nothing proposition - you don't clear them all, you start again.
You should be obligated to exit via the exit. This, of course, would require killing the last NPC, which has no circles to run around - leading to the rez at wayshrine in the safety of the main area. Die to the last NPC? The you should have the option of starting again or rezing back at further in the delve (starting point would be fine, complete with one-way door)

The vamp quest is and has been a joke for some time now or L3's would have never obtained it. There should be zone appropriate enemies at or near the shrine in the first place, or at the exit of the shrine portal as a level check.

The only way they could simplify it further would be to have the Queen vampiress on the other side of the portal holding a silver tray (irony intended) with your fake teeth and a cup of juice sitting in the middle.

The way many have chosen to do it doesn't require you to earn it now.

You can't walk around the zone otherwise unassisted and survive, yet they continue to let this one remain as is, and you want it made easier???

Shineko · June 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Shineko wrote: »

I'm going to get straight to the point.
Werewolves level their skill line incredibly fast regardless of level and for a vampire it's variable but can take weeks.

It is not uncommon for players to become a werewolf or vampire before they even hit level 10 if they really try hard enough to. The werewolf quest is incredibly easy compared to the vampire quest and leveling the werewolf line is different than vampires in that vampires need EXP to level while werewolves need kills.

Solutions to the discrepency: Reduce difficulty in both the vampire quest further [because yay stairs] as well as improve the leveling mechanic for vampirism skill line or make lycanthropy skill line more difficult to level.

Seriously? You can obtain it by coward kiting the mobs (make that mob, as the remaining ones are usually never attacked) in a circle for an hour at a level significantly lower than ever intended.
You want the skillup to use the feeding mechanic? The quest doesn't even require the feeding mechanic anymore...The original feed requirement for the quest is no longer even there - now it's a kill requirement.

Most of the NPC's are singles, so you take no risk of multiple damage sources.

The NPC typically kited at low level in a zone your L10 couldn't even viably set foot in has no ranged attacks and does not have the typical time-out tether that every other mob in the game has.

NPC (again, at level 42) would take little to no damage from your L3-10 weapon and the regen the NPC should have would outpace the remaining damage. Your damage would automatically be cut in half by nature of the higher level armor the NPC wears.

The NPC never CC's you.

The NPC never stuns you.

The NPC never sprints one time to catch you. Pretty sure he'd out-stamina you in a heartbeat.

There are enough NPC's to properly complete the quest, so there should be no respawn timer for this instanced area. It should be an all or nothing proposition - you don't clear them all, you start again.

You should be obligated to exit via the exit. This, of course, would require killing the last NPC, which has no circles to run around - leading to the rez at wayshrine in the safety of the main area. Die to the last NPC? The you should have the option of starting again or rezing back at further in the delve (starting point would be fine, complete with one-way door)

The vamp quest is and has been a joke for some time now or L3's would have never obtained it. There should be zone appropriate enemies at or near the shrine in the first place, or at the exit of the shrine portal as a level check.

The only way they could simplify it further would be to have the Queen vampiress on the other side of the portal holding a silver tray (irony intended) with your fake teeth and a cup of juice sitting in the middle.

The way many have chosen to do it doesn't require you to earn it now.

You can't walk around the zone otherwise unassisted and survive, yet they continue to let this one remain as is, and you want it made easier???

You should try testing your reading comprehension because you missed the entire point of this thread.

The point isn't the difficulty of becoming a vampire in of itself. It's a comparison of the difficulties between become a vampire and werewolf. Pick one:

Werewolves become werewolves too easily compared to vampires or
Vampires have their quest significantly more difficult than werewolves do.

Additionally, this is only one discrepency mentioned and you failed to address any of the others.
You failed to address that the werewolf skill line levels significantly faster than the vampire one seeing as the skill line for werewolves revolves around a low number of kills compared to the extremely high experience points required for vampires.

Finally, you also did not address that the passives and abilities are far more useful for werewolves in all content and that their bonuses and weaknesses for werewolves are totally optional whereas vampires always experience the effect of any and all negatives of being a vampire regardless of whether they have fed or not.

So again this thread is not about how difficult vampirism is. This thread is about the discrepency between the skill lines of werewolves and vampires. Whether or not it is more appropriate to increase werewolf difficulty to match vampires, whether to reduce vampire difficulty, or a hybrid of both is the topic of this discussion as well as a polishing of the existent or features that logically should exist for vampires that don't.

coryevans_3b14_ESO · June 2015

I almost forgot about this thread. It's another "make it easier for me to do (fill in thing that is too hard for you)."

bertenburnyb16_ESO · June 2015

Of all the issues with ww and vamps, the lvlng is not one of em, both are really easy

Merlin13KAGL · June 2015

Shineko wrote: »

You should try testing your reading comprehension because you missed the entire point of this thread.

You may consider seeking an exam regarding your memory or be a bit more concise:

Shineko wrote: »

Solutions to the discrepency: Reduce difficulty in both the vampire quest further [because yay stairs] as well as improve the leveling mechanic for vampirism skill line or make lycanthropy skill line more difficult to level.

The vampire quest, which your quote requests to be made easier is quite manageable at the appropriate level.

It should kick your ass at L10, it was never intended to be completed that way. If they altered one of a dozen things that are present everywhere else in the game, the only blood a lowbie would ever exit with would be their own.

Shineko wrote: »

The point isn't the difficulty of becoming a vampire in of itself. It's a comparison of the difficulties between become a vampire and werewolf. Pick one:

Werewolves become werewolves too easily compared to vampires or
Vampires have their quest significantly more difficult than werewolves do.

You fail to mention or fail to grasp that both are quite manageable. The sheer numbers of each attest to this.

Shineko wrote: »

Additionally, this is only one discrepency mentioned and you failed to address any of the others.
You failed to address that the werewolf skill line levels significantly faster than the vampire one seeing as the skill line for werewolves revolves around a low number of kills compared to the extremely high experience points required for vampires.

It's a different mechanic, why shouldn't it be? Everything doesn't have to be the same.

While it would make more sense for the Vamp line to be based on actual use of Vamp skills (not just feeding), it's still quite easy to attain L10 - in fact, it takes less than 10 regular levels to max the skill line, in most cases.

You indicate you can get it at low character level - which shouldn't be possible, and then you complain that you can't master it fast enough?

Shineko wrote: »

Finally, you also did not address that the passives and abilities are far more useful for werewolves in all content and that their bonuses and weaknesses for werewolves are totally optional whereas vampires always experience the effect of any and all negatives of being a vampire regardless of whether they have fed or not.

So again this thread is not about how difficult vampirism is. This thread is about the discrepency between the skill lines of werewolves and vampires. Whether or not it is more appropriate to increase werewolf difficulty to match vampires, whether to reduce vampire difficulty, or a hybrid of both is the topic of this discussion as well as a polishing of the existent or features that logically should exist for vampires that don't.

Funny, WW's would argue that some of their actives aren't as useful as the Vamp line - offsetting your opinion about the Vamp passives being 'less useful.' Increased M&S regen, damage mitigation, speed bonus - seem pretty useful to me (and every other vamp out there.) Health regen is offset by feeding, if it hinders you so. The fire weakness can be countered with a single piece of jewelry or by simply getting out of the way.

If you wish WW to be harder, then offer that up as the option. Be clear, be concise.

Don't come here asking for what has already rendered far too trivial to be trivialized more.

QQ less, go level your skill line more.

On a more global note, the fact that skills advance at all without use is absurd - placing them on your skillbar to have them increase without ever utilizing them would change skill leveling tremendously.

As it is now, you can acquire and even level Vamp without ever using a single Vamp skill.

At least WW requires you to be a werewolf.