ZOS, in order to reduce the zerging in Cyrodiil, did you consider....

trimsic_ESO · June 2015

Rewarding much more people fighting in small groups would surely encourage people to stop zerging in Cyrodiil.

When I look at the XP and the AP I can earn at prime time in Cyrodiil with my guild raid (16 people) and I compare these numbers with what I can earn when we're raiding with a small group of 4-6 people, I can understand why people are zerging. To follow the XP/AP and therefore the CP, follow the masses....

I know that killing someone while in a raid grants less XP/AP than killing the same player while alone or in a small group, but why not granting a much more important bonus in the later situation as a mean to strongly encourage people to play Cyrodiil differently?

I'd love to see this tested for a couple of weeks on the live servers.

God_flakes · June 2015

I agree. Smaller groups FTW. And we do need to be rewarded for it. Right now there is no reward for being an anti zerg.

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

or just implement a global 5s cooldown on all ability use... that will stop the lag..

not even joking there....

Mako1132 · June 2015

This has been suggested many times and patently ignored because the "elitists" would succeed too much and people complain when that happens.

trimsic_ESO · June 2015

When you can see some players succeed, have a lot of CP, a great stuff, and win on the battlefield, you want to be like them. This is what drives people to get over themselves, and play more when they can or when they want (instead of playing another game for instance). Or said it differently, if you don't have objectives in a game, you quickly stop playing that game.

Earning more CP is a fantastic driving force for people who likes to PVP. If the players can earn more CP in small groups rather than in zerg raids, they will stop zerging. People will start looking for small groups, and will try to be more competitive.

Yes, a form of elitism will take place in Cyrodiil. But that's the very nature of every competitive activity in a game, be it PvE (think about the ranking system in ESO) or be it PvP to "rule the world". If ZOS does not want this form of elitism to take place in their game, they should close Cyrodiil immediately. PVP is a matter of competition between players; it's not supposed to be a daily bland activity.

And for those people who can't spend much time in the game, a season system can be put in place to close the gap between them and the hardcore gamers when a season ends and another one starts.

We have an expression in France that seems to suit this situation pretty well: ZOS, lâchez les chevaux!
I think it can be translated into something like: ZOS, unleash the power of your game!

Johngo0036 · June 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

or just implement a global 5s cooldown on all ability use... that will stop the lag..

not even joking there....

LOL... so we will all stare at each other for 5 seconds and then all pop a spell/skill,
and then stare for another 5 seconds,

Fights would never end,

cozmon3c_ESO · June 2015

i like this, more ap for smaller groups, risk vs reward. yes its already there but it needs to be boosted for how many times you die to the steamroll zerg machines out there lagging the hell out of cyrodiil.

Frawr · June 2015

They could taper the xp/ap more steeply so that yo lu still get 200-300 per kill in a group of 4 but then steeply taper so that you get 1-5 for a full raid.

I think the problem is also caused by the futility of the campaigns coupled with people only really being interested in personal gain. So they all congregate on the same spot rather than going out and using their initiative to impact enemy lines.

The number of ganker archers on dc eu is hilarious.

Perhaps if the whole campaign system was better (more sandboxy) then it wouldnt be this way.

Tankqull · June 2015

the problem is abilities like purge and smart heals are not restricted to your grp members and thus any system to encourage smaller groups will only lead to warbands splitting into the most AP-effective size but still stick together like ants.

WebBull · June 2015

Just reduce the max group size to 16. Believe it or not it will have a huge effect.

Sotha_Sil · June 2015

Johngo0036 wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

or just implement a global 5s cooldown on all ability use... that will stop the lag..

not even joking there....

LOL... so we will all stare at each other for 5 seconds and then all pop a spell/skill,
and then stare for another 5 seconds,

Fights would never end,

You still have heavy and light attack

it would be Elder Attacks Online.

Frawr · June 2015

WebBull wrote: »

Just reduce the max group size to 16. Believe it or not it will have a huge effect.

Ap is based on number of people who hit the target, not group size.

If 50 people hit then 50 people get some ap.

Group size doesn't matter In a zerg. Don't need to be grouped to get share of ap.

Need a way to spread people out. Only thing i see working is to have other objectives that are worth doing. That means a reason to go take a farm.

Example, if players could manufacture keep npcs by holding a farm then there would be a damned good reason to take it.

WebBull · June 2015

Frawr wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Just reduce the max group size to 16. Believe it or not it will have a huge effect.

Ap is based on number of people who hit the target, not group size.

If 50 people hit then 50 people get some ap.

Group size doesn't matter In a zerg. Don't need to be grouped to get share of ap.

Need a way to spread people out. Only thing i see working is to have other objectives that are worth doing. That means a reason to go take a farm.

Example, if players could manufacture keep npcs by holding a farm then there would be a damned good reason to take it.

My comment had nothing to do with AP. Reducing group size will reduce zerging. Not in a major way but it will have a positive impact.

cjthibs · June 2015

People already form zergs of multiple raid groups...how will forcing them to create more smaller groups change anything at all?

Frawr · June 2015

WebBull wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Just reduce the max group size to 16. Believe it or not it will have a huge effect.

Ap is based on number of people who hit the target, not group size.

If 50 people hit then 50 people get some ap.

Group size doesn't matter In a zerg. Don't need to be grouped to get share of ap.

Need a way to spread people out. Only thing i see working is to have other objectives that are worth doing. That means a reason to go take a farm.

Example, if players could manufacture keep npcs by holding a farm then there would be a damned good reason to take it.

My comment had nothing to do with AP. Reducing group size will reduce zerging. Not in a major way but it will have a positive impact.

So they will run 3 x 16 = 48 instead of 2 x 24 = 48. No material impact.

They need to implement reasons to choose not to follow a zerg.

part of the problem is the lack of reason to play the campaign. Consider how many tower parties tree are that appear. Good way to farm ap. No amount of limits or restrictions will improve it. They need to create reasons to want to spread. Ap is the biggest driver of activities atm so am ap-related solution is likely to be the answer. Killing ap when more than 8 people hit a target could work. I'm not sure that it is a good idea though. I don't have a good solution right now.

GorraShatan · June 2015

An AP boost for when a target is hit by fewer friendlies before dying is a pretty decent idea actually. I'd still prefer tweaking Magicka Detno and siege and stuff like that though.

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

Johngo0036 wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

or just implement a global 5s cooldown on all ability use... that will stop the lag..

not even joking there....

LOL... so we will all stare at each other for 5 seconds and then all pop a spell/skill,
and then stare for another 5 seconds,

Fights would never end,

ability use, not Roll dodge/block/light or heavy attacks..

filmoretub17_ESO · June 2015

Well it is suppose to be large scale war. Is not an arena or small instanced pvp map. It is a massive war map. People are drawn to the game by the massive warfare then want everyone to fight in small groups. I think that would kill lure of massive warfare. If you want to stop stacking then that's a similar problem probably caused by aoe heals and aoe damage. You have to make it to stacking 50 players on 1 spot isn't worth doing. If you can kill 20 players with 10 players then why would you want to run with 10 players?

FENGRUSH · June 2015

filmoretub17_ESO wrote: »

If you can kill 20 players with 10 players then why would you want to run with 10 players?

To kill the 20 players... Lord FENGRUSH has outwitted your riddle.

Valnas · June 2015

cap groups at 16 and make xp/ap diminishing by size.

1x = 100% ap/xp
2x = 110%
3x = 105%
4x = 100%
5x = 95%
10x = 70%
12x=60%
16x=40%

i.e. if you wanna roll big, fine, but you will have to kill 2x your # to keep even with a duo. Risk/reward!

reften · June 2015

Would do nothing, my guild would just run 6 groups of 4.

"zerging" is such a misnomer. Why is teamwork by 20 or so players considered zerging? I never understand that.

It's an MMO, where group play is encouraged. Go find a guild, run with the guild, and fight as a team. This isn't suppose to be a small group, or a one person game. That's Skyrim.

That being said, there is still plenty to do pvp solo. Go into a delve solo, or a questing hot spot, or near a dolmen, or setup defense siege.

but if you're in the open field with everyone else, where ARMIES are moving, then that is a l2p moment.

Bouvin · June 2015

Currently 24-man groups get about 10% of what you get solo for a kill.

That should be 1%.

Remove the incentive to zerg, and the zergs will dissipate. I been saying this for a while now...

Bouvin · June 2015

oren74 wrote: »

"zerging" is such a misnomer. Why is teamwork by 20 or so players considered zerging? I never understand that.

Sorry. Maybe the term "Blobbing" would be more appropriate.

You know, like when everyone stacks on Crown in a tight ball, then Crown tells them when to cast Proximity Detonation, charge in and spam Steel Tornado?

And that works. So more and more guilds start doing it... and pretty soon you end up with 1+ Full groups from each faction butting heads.. then lag... then damage desynching.

Yep.. don't see the problem there.

As opposed to incentives for smaller groups where you actually spread players out a bit (like a real war), which causes less lag, more dynamic maps, and battles that actually take SKILL instead of casting Proxy Det at the right time.

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

ok im going to be serious...

Reducing AP gains when more than one person are attacking the same target..

Keep offense and Defense would go unchanged. Specifically the massive zerging to take a keep or defend it. you would still want to pile in as many as you can for those objectives.

this would have no effect on any tactics in those situations due to the goal being the Offensive or Defensive tick, or the keep itself and not so much of killing the enemy players involved. you would still get a zerg who comes in with proxy det when you try and take a keep etc.. on those reasons AP is not the goal, Current Zerging would contiune and this makes up a majority of the zerging.

the most noticeable changes would be that AP farmers use. as blobing and running around a resource to lure in people for AP would be alot less effective in earning it...

that is a good step, but how would it be calculated? if its based on group size, then you just keep grouping to a minimum. if its based on number of players hitting a target then blobbing is still effective as most will die in 4-5 steel tornados. base it on number of players near the target overall? could cause more lag due to the calculations, and utterly destroy AP gain for individual players who are legitimately running alone.

so while it would have a good effect on certain causes of blobbing, i dont think its enought on its own... maybe with making seige unpurgable and with the actual modifier done right...

Bouvin · June 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

ok im going to be serious...

Reducing AP gains when more than one person are attacking the same target..

Keep offense and Defense would go unchanged. Specifically the massive zerging to take a keep or defend it. you would still want to pile in as many as you can for those objectives.

this would have no effect on any tactics in those situations due to the goal being the Offensive or Defensive tick, or the keep itself and not so much of killing the enemy players involved. you would still get a zerg who comes in with proxy det when you try and take a keep etc.. on those reasons AP is not the goal, Current Zerging would contiune and this makes up a majority of the zerging.

the most noticeable changes would be that AP farmers use. as blobing and running around a resource to lure in people for AP would be alot less effective in earning it...

that is a good step, but how would it be calculated? if its based on group size, then you just keep grouping to a minimum. if its based on number of players hitting a target then blobbing is still effective as most will die in 4-5 steel tornados. base it on number of players near the target overall? could cause more lag due to the calculations, and utterly destroy AP gain for individual players who are legitimately running alone.

so while it would have a good effect on certain causes of blobbing, i dont think its enought on its own... maybe with making seige unpurgable and with the actual modifier done right...

It would be calculated just like it is now.

If I run solo and tag someone a big group helps kill, I don't get full AP. I get about the same amount of AP the big group does.

So running a whole bunch of 4-man groups, you'd still get same AP as running 1 full group.

That's only HALF of the answer.

The other HALF is spreading out objectives. You're 100% correct in that nerfing group AP wouldn't change tactics for taking keeps. That's because 90% of the objectives are keeps and resources which are within close proximity of keeps.

If you spread objectives around the map, that had a BIG IMPACT on campaign score, it would incentivize people to break into smaller groups to maintain control of those MANY objectives.

Right now 1 or 2 zergs can control the entire map efficiently because they can just port from keep to keep. If a keep gets flagged they weren't watching, they just port to nearest and it's only a 2 minute ride.

So what needs to happen is you need to spread the objectives out (which spreads the players out) and also consider making travel in Cyrodil take longer. Right now you can port to basically any keep except opponents 2 gate keeps. Restrict this to only porting to your home keeps and maybe the 2 closest emp keeps and you slow travel down, which slows the zerg down, which along with more objectives spreads people out into smaller groups.

Edit:Spelling/Grammer

Bouvin · June 2015

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

so while it would have a good effect on certain causes of blobbing, i dont think its enought on its own... maybe with making seige unpurgable and with the actual modifier done right...

Also to note. I don't think making siege unpurgable would have an effect actually.

What it would do is make it impossible to siege keeps...

Good zerg blobs don't sit still long enough to hit with siege. So it wouldn't effect them. However, it would probably enable them, just like the "zerg killer skill" Proximity Detonation has done.

Rather than focusing on ways for players to do more damage to blobs (which so far has made blobs more powerful) ZoS needs to focus on the core reason people are zerg blobbing and remove the INCENTIVE

The_Drexill · June 2015

Can't stop the zerg in eso, it's a base design flaw with cc. If you can't control a crowd, then there's no reason not to crowd.

Daoc did it right.

FENGRUSH · June 2015

@ZOS_BrianWheeler How to make PVP?

Hypertionb14_ESO · June 2015

AP changes, the ability to kill a zerg, and objectives to split zergs up... all of these are needed..

understand this...

Remove the massive AP gains from Blobbing and you stop that aspect of it. You wont see much blobbing unless its to take an objective.

Remove the ability to purge blobs and you have a way to kill them when you find them. this is not the topic for this discussion but its still important and would hurt blobs the most as they are the most reliant on purge.

Add enough stuff you have to keep in order to control a map and Blobs become smaller and more spread out. but it has to be in such a way that there is no point in Zerging an objective like it is now on all resources, where more people means a faster flip on the flag. otherwise no matter how many objectives there are they will zerg them to do it faster and move to the next.

reften · June 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

"zerging" is such a misnomer. Why is teamwork by 20 or so players considered zerging? I never understand that.

Sorry. Maybe the term "Blobbing" would be more appropriate.

You know, like when everyone stacks on Crown in a tight ball, then Crown tells them when to cast Proximity Detonation, charge in and spam Steel Tornado?

And that works. So more and more guilds start doing it... and pretty soon you end up with 1+ Full groups from each faction butting heads.. then lag... then damage desynching.

Yep.. don't see the problem there.

As opposed to incentives for smaller groups where you actually spread players out a bit (like a real war), which causes less lag, more dynamic maps, and battles that actually take SKILL instead of casting Proxy Det at the right time.

So what are we supposed to do? Tone down our DPS?...should healers use a weaker heal when running in groups? Should tanks hold block only 1/2 the time?

I bet these guys were asked nicely to not use such big shields and such strong tactics/weapons.

Roman_Army_%26_Chariot_Experience,_Hippodrome,_Jerash,_Jordan_(5072679364).jpg

Roman_Army_%26_Chariot_Experience,_Hippodrome,_Jerash,_Jordan_(5072679364).jpg

FENGRUSH · June 2015

oren74 wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

oren74 wrote: »

"zerging" is such a misnomer. Why is teamwork by 20 or so players considered zerging? I never understand that.

Sorry. Maybe the term "Blobbing" would be more appropriate.

You know, like when everyone stacks on Crown in a tight ball, then Crown tells them when to cast Proximity Detonation, charge in and spam Steel Tornado?

And that works. So more and more guilds start doing it... and pretty soon you end up with 1+ Full groups from each faction butting heads.. then lag... then damage desynching.

Yep.. don't see the problem there.

As opposed to incentives for smaller groups where you actually spread players out a bit (like a real war), which causes less lag, more dynamic maps, and battles that actually take SKILL instead of casting Proxy Det at the right time.

So what are we supposed to do? Tone down our DPS?...should healers use a weaker heal when running in groups? Should tanks hold block only 1/2 the time?

I bet these guys were asked nicely to not use such big shields and such strong tactics/weapons.

Dont think anyones asking for incentives from these ball groups. Trying to get ZOS to do something right and offer appropriate counters to this type of balled up gameplay.