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The new fear, Gear progression.
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Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »
Look at FF14, it originally failed HARD, REALLY HARD. Square Enix then addmitted, that they screwed up, picked up the pieces, and created a whole new game, a game that is the ONLY game in the past 5 years to stay P2P. They still have the gear grind, they still have the hardcore PVP and PVE, they still have many mechanics of other MMO's that you say is hurting the games, but it is alive and well.
the BIGGEST complaint that ALWAYS pops up for every mmo is customer support. ZOS, Wildstar, SWTOR, does not matter, the biggest problem was that the company never talked to the players, never fixed issues, never had support that actually helped with problems. I can keep going on, but THAT is the biggest problem.
I agree with you on this point. However I still feel that the average FF14 player made the jump from WoW because of a pvp nerf or perhaps they just got tired of the gear grind. They will rush through FF and find that same wall, and then move on to the next title. As months or years pass and WoW or FF release new content, they will return, burn through it, complain and leave again. I was, admittedly a little scattered and off base with my original post. I just feel as if this gear progression merry go round has us all jumping from this promise to the next. No one, in my opinion, plays the same mmo for more than a few months any more before jumping ship. Nothing captures us I guess was my point. It's all stats and cookie cutter guides and leave disappointed.0 -
PKMN12✭✭✭✭✭Callous2208 wrote: »Callous2208 wrote: »
Look at FF14, it originally failed HARD, REALLY HARD. Square Enix then addmitted, that they screwed up, picked up the pieces, and created a whole new game, a game that is the ONLY game in the past 5 years to stay P2P. They still have the gear grind, they still have the hardcore PVP and PVE, they still have many mechanics of other MMO's that you say is hurting the games, but it is alive and well.
the BIGGEST complaint that ALWAYS pops up for every mmo is customer support. ZOS, Wildstar, SWTOR, does not matter, the biggest problem was that the company never talked to the players, never fixed issues, never had support that actually helped with problems. I can keep going on, but THAT is the biggest problem.
I agree with you on this point. However I still feel that the average FF14 player made the jump from WoW because of a pvp nerf or perhaps they just got tired of the gear grind. They will rush through FF and find that same wall, and then move on to the next title. As months or years pass and WoW or FF release new content, they will return, burn through it, complain and leave again. I was, admittedly a little scattered and off base with my original post. I just feel as if this gear progression merry go round has us all jumping from this promise to the next. No one, in my opinion, plays the same mmo for more than a few months any more before jumping ship. Nothing captures us I guess was my point. It's all stats and cookie cutter guides and leave disappointed.
that "wall" has been basically reached a WHILE ago in FF14, yet subs are fine..
as for stats and builds, WELCOME TO AN RPG! ESPECIALLY one where there is ANY kind of competition. Those are in EVERY RPG, ever since D&D, which had and has it in SPADES that would probably make you cry.1 -
Etharian✭✭✭I just participated in a thread that lead to the possibility of ESO going to a WOW/every other MMO style gear progression system. Ilvls and lockouts and all of the other reasons us diehard eso fans dont play other MMOS. It is all hearsay. Nothing to back it up. But it was mentioned by a poster as a possibility. I am making this thread as a precautionary measure. Please speak up if you know how bad of an idea this would be, so that the devs know before they even think about it. I for one would instantly quit, and I know droves of others who would as well. If a dev reads this, please do not go this route. It is the main, defining difference that makes ESO so great. Hopefully comments in this thread will back that opinion up. Pls comment.
Actually it is going to happen that way if they pull the trigger .. iLvLs .. paul sage explained it himself. search around and you will find it. Not hearsay.. He basically said everyone will be level 50 but v14 iLVL gear will be the highest like wow but once you get 50 you can use all the armor regardless of iLVL.
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Xjcon✭✭✭✭✭If you can just buy the bis gear why even play the game? Having gear progression is what keeps people playing.
Imo the perfect game has a progression from crafted gear clear up to bis which is obtained from playing the harder content.
Do you live to upgrade your underpants and shoes? Because I certainly live to do more interesting and fun things.
A MMO is not different. Do you play to upgrade your pants and shoes? Because I certainly don't.
It's a sad WoWification that tainted so many games.
WoW created a sad mechanism that transforms players into muppets who live to chase the carrot on the stick.
I'd rather play a game that is like a good book or movie: entertraining and compelling because of its content, adventures, plot, not because of chasing the pants and shoes of level + 1.
What's the point of playing if not to progress? Is it just a social outlet? There are many other games before WoW that were about hunting for items, as a matter of fact I remember playing Final Fantasy or Dragon warrior trying to get those better items. As for a game that is like a book....I'm sorry but I play online to compete with other players, if I want story time I will play a single player game.
Look at humanity: do you consider getting cotton underpants and gymn shoes "THE" progress? No, there's an huge world that advanced in many fields. Open your horizon, there's more to a game than some purple pixels.
Also, I play EvE Online, a competitive game if ever there has been one. You won't find mudflation or Gear = Gear + 1 "progress" in there. However it's a 13 years old MMO still kicking. How? They keep releasing actual, playable content. And no paid expansion a la WoW, it's all included in the subscription.
I play a Rpg to build my character. Of course I consider what cloths I buy irl, I pay for them!
Now I'm curious as how you play an rpg? Perhaps you know a way to make a game (that has been stale for a few months now) fun again.
Since the very first time I played this game I had high hopes that it was going to be a progression raiding style mmo with a elder scrolls skin. Before 1.6 it was slightly this way, now it's a never ending cp grind.
If ZoS puts out content that is just a new area with new quests and no more group content. I bet people move on to something else faster then ever before.Briza Do'urdenx V16 Dunmer DK
Jcon V16 Orc DK
Vierna Do'urdenx V16 Bosmer NB
Jarlaxle Baenrex V16 Dunmer NB1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you can just buy the bis gear why even play the game? Having gear progression is what keeps people playing.
Imo the perfect game has a progression from crafted gear clear up to bis which is obtained from playing the harder content.
Do you live to upgrade your underpants and shoes? Because I certainly live to do more interesting and fun things.
A MMO is not different. Do you play to upgrade your pants and shoes? Because I certainly don't.
It's a sad WoWification that tainted so many games.
WoW created a sad mechanism that transforms players into muppets who live to chase the carrot on the stick.
I'd rather play a game that is like a good book or movie: entertraining and compelling because of its content, adventures, plot, not because of chasing the pants and shoes of level + 1.
What's the point of playing if not to progress? Is it just a social outlet? There are many other games before WoW that were about hunting for items, as a matter of fact I remember playing Final Fantasy or Dragon warrior trying to get those better items. As for a game that is like a book....I'm sorry but I play online to compete with other players, if I want story time I will play a single player game.
Look at humanity: do you consider getting cotton underpants and gymn shoes "THE" progress? No, there's an huge world that advanced in many fields. Open your horizon, there's more to a game than some purple pixels.
Also, I play EvE Online, a competitive game if ever there has been one. You won't find mudflation or Gear = Gear + 1 "progress" in there. However it's a 13 years old MMO still kicking. How? They keep releasing actual, playable content. And no paid expansion a la WoW, it's all included in the subscription.
I play a Rpg to build my character. Of course I consider what cloths I buy irl, I pay for them!
Now I'm curious as how you play an rpg? Perhaps you know a way to make a game (that has been stale for a few months now) fun again.
Since the very first time I played this game I had high hopes that it was going to be a progression raiding style mmo with a elder scrolls skin. Before 1.6 it was slightly this way, now it's a never ending cp grind.
If ZoS puts out content that is just a new area with new quests and no more group content. I bet people move on to something else faster then ever before.
Frankly I would be totally fine with a cp grind if the most challenging content also awarded the most cp/exp.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »No point in arguing with @dduke @docstrawb he has been trying to turn this game into another gear progression wow clone since day one. He has been on here for a year complaining about this issue claiming the game is unsuccessful, I guess making money and turning a profit is a failure who knew XD . He will never understand anything other then his own view and try's to belittle anyone who thinks different. Fact is many great points have been made but he chooses to ignore them. My question to you DDuke is why don't you play wildstar if a vertical gear progression system is what your after ? How well did that work out for wildstar XD......o wait it's going to free to play while ESO is atleast buy to play. So tell me @ddduke if gear progression is the pinnacle of MMO gaming why did its most recent iteration fall flat on its face ? If the ESO system is such a failure why is it continuing to grow ?
#horizonalprogressionforlife
I feel like I'm generating a cult following. Every thread I post in, certain few posters jump in and start trying to berate everything I say
It's nice you think there's no point arguing with me, it means I'm quite good at it.
Why don't I play WildStar? Off topic, but quite frankly I didn't like the combat nor the art style.
Oh, and surely it must've failed for having something every successful MMO has, gear progression.
Nothing to do with complete lack of casual content, P2W (cash4gold), itemization being a mess in the beginning (easily crafted, BoE gear>everything, sound familiar?).
Try again.
Also, do you have any proof of ESO "growing", or that it is turning a profit? Didn't think so.
In fact, I would say the evidence points to the contrary when a game has to go B2P. Just wait for the console player to hit max level, another mass exodus (much like last summer) will follow once people find out there's no hook to keep them playing, that there is nothing left worth doing (apart from grinding goblins 24/7, which I doubt many people find fun).
P.S. I find it hypocritical for someone to write "#horizontalprogressionforlife" (it's not twitter btw), when this game has the biggest vertical climb in history of modern MMOs in form of the Champion System.Edited by DDuke on May 30, 2015 8:00AM1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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Posts like this make me facepalmCallous2208 wrote: »If I may be so bold as to offer my opinion on this matter. Let me preface by saying I don't believe there is a solution as far as mmo's go anymore in regards to gear grinds or horizontal/vertical progression and let me explain why. It is our fault. We have created this monster. Or, I guess I should be specific; the so called "hardcore" gaming crowd has created this mess. So caught up in being the best, the fastest. Burning through content to reach an ever elusive pinnacle to satisfy some odd desire to be on top of a virtual world. We have singlehandedly taken the RPG aspect out of mmoRPG. And no I'm not just talking about RPing in general. Developers have taken notice and now only cater to the fair weather gamer who will leave for the next great concept at the first whiff of dissatisfaction. The purpose of this genre was to get a player lost in a virtual land with friends far and wide. Not rush through content ignoring every piece of dialogue and scenery to compare epeen's with the guy in Nevada.
tl:dr- Min/maxing, rushing to end game, chasing gear instead of enjoying a virtual world. Just stop. Slow down. Lets re-ignite the passion we once had for these worlds. Go play COD to flex your epeen, I hear they have a new one of those every few months.
Min/maxing has been around since rpgs have existed as long as the original rpg. You can also optimize and role play at the same time, any who thinks otherwise gas problems that have nothing to do with the game.
If you're veiw was correct, then why did wow change it, if the any other mmo out at the time was better, why did wow succeed? why did ultima online have such major problems with player killers until they created a non- PvP server, in which then killed all PvP.
I min/max IRL.
And I get paid well for it, too.2 -
Lord Xanhorn✭✭✭✭P.S. I find it hypocritical for someone to write "#horizontalprogressionforlife" (it's not twitter btw), when this game has the biggest vertical climb in history of modern MMOs in form of the Champion System.
They consider it horizontal cause they can pick their flowers and roleplay in their taverns and not be considered weak as compared to other players. This game doesn't have horizontal progression it has a zero progression system. Champion System is over your whole account and therefore should not be considered making your 1 particular character stronger. Therefore I contend that when you reach V14, that's the end of the road regarding progression.I'm kind of a small deal!0 -
Saturn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I too hope this never becomes the case. I remember trying to do stuff in WoW that I hadn't tried yet and was met with a conversation like this:
"Hey can I join you for ____?"
"What is your gearscore?"
"It is only X at the moment, but I know how to play my class well."
"You need a gearscore of Y to join _____."
"Why?"
"That's how the game works."
The thing with ESO at the moment is that it rewards skillful play. In PvP I am using a really strange setup, but in 1v1 or 1v2 fights I usually succeed with it because it works for me.
Same thing with DPSing or Tanking, I use a playstyle / gear and skill setup that works for me.
If you have ever played WoW you know that there are perhaps two ways to play your class and that it is all about the gear you are wearing, not how good of a player you are, because compared to someone with better gear you are nothing..
All of this aside, I do think there are a few sets that need a buff to be more relevant as a lot of the gear sets in ESO are just trash at the moment. I also think that certain gear should give a more rewarding 5 piece effect to challenge those gear setups where you just stack something like Weapon Damage or Spell Damage by using 4 pieces of one set, 3 pieces of another and so on. Because while the top DPSes in ESO aren't made great by their gear, they do all tend to use the same gear configuration.0 -
Lord Xanhorn✭✭✭✭I too hope this never becomes the case. I remember trying to do stuff in WoW that I hadn't tried yet and was met with a conversation like this:
"Hey can I join you for ____?"
"What is your gearscore?"
"It is only X at the moment, but I know how to play my class well."
"You need a gearscore of Y to join _____."
"Why?"
"That's how the game works."
That's all fine and good to not have the scenario unfold that you mention but here is the current scenario in this game which is much much worse.
"LFG Craglorn quests"
....no response
"LFG V12+ vet dungeon"
.... no response
"LFG any trial"
... no response
"Why does no one do group play together?? I'm frustrated"
"Roll a new toon. There's no reason to do V14 content that's not PVP"
I'm kind of a small deal!2 -
docstrawb✭✭✭I feel like I'm generating a cult following. Every thread I post in, certain few posters jump in and start trying to berate everything I say
It's nice you think there's no point arguing with me, it means I'm quite good at it.
I don't quite think thats what it means, lol.Lord Xanhorn wrote: »That's all fine and good to not have the scenario unfold that you mention but here is the current scenario in this game which is much much worse.
"LFG Craglorn quests"
....no response
"LFG V12+ vet dungeon"
.... no response
"LFG any trial"
... no response
"Why does no one do group play together?? I'm frustrated"
"Roll a new toon. There's no reason to do V14 content that's not PVP"
This has nothing to do with the gear system. This is merely a fresh content issue. The obvious solution is new content, and new gear sets to play with. Not a complete overhaul into every other MMO on the market. You get the same result on them when there is a content lull.
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