It will upset me greatly if ZOS removes racial passives...

RACES ARE DIFFERENT... deal with it.

An ORC shouldn't be as good a sorcerer as an Altmer. A game that allows that is BROKEN.

Those unique bonuses in potions and swimming are pretty sweet if you ask me

i feel like everyone has forgotten the concept of an elder scrolls game. build your character your own way. just because elder scrolls is now an online mmo stop trying to make "builds"....id rather not see this game become another WoW lol -_-

Min/max play styles are a crutch for mediocre players.

There, I said it.

keybaud wrote: »

I Really, Desperately want to make an Argonian Nightblade but I can't because ALL racials are imbalanced and broken and have been since the removal of Softcaps in 1.6. Please do SOMETHING about racial passives. And don't just give everyone a race change because there are pretty much only FOUR races people are gonna choose or change to. (I do still want race changes though) Please BALANCE the racial changes and make them less meaningful for characters.

One of the toughest nightblades I've encountered is Steals-Away-Blood, who is Argonian sap tank NB.

Axorn wrote: »

StaticWax wrote: »

Min/max play styles are a crutch for mediocre players.

There, I said it.

"All generalizations are false, including this one."

Mind = Blown

glak wrote: »

Argonian master race? Some nice synergy there with NB and poitions CP.

this
plus for siphon you get extra heals out of them with argonian passives

Bookwyrm wrote: »

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

PoseidonEvil wrote: »

i feel like everyone has forgotten the concept of an elder scrolls game. build your character your own way. just because elder scrolls is now an online mmo stop trying to make "builds"....id rather not see this game become another WoW lol -_-

It's not the concept of play how you want, it's the concept of competition that has caused it. In single player TES, similar passive were used but no one could say which were bad since there was nothing to compare it to except your own experience.

I would disagree with this on the point of "nothing to compare it to." As long as you have gamers, you will have people searching the code for ways to determine exactly how much damage they're doing and when and with what, whether single- or multi-player. And when you have people doing that, you have people on forums comparing builds. And when you have people on forums comparing builds, you inevitably have arguments over whose is better, and it usually falls back on the numbers.

It's no different in single-player, just that less people tend to care about it.

Honestly, I see what people are complaining about, I just don't agree with the complaint. Racials should be "balanced" but not "equal." As already stated, an Orc should not be the same caliber sorceror as an Altmer, because their racials should not permit that. And that's okay. You can still be an Orc sorceror, and you can still kick some serious elf-tail, but when facing off against an Altmer sorceror your numbers won't be as well--so make up for it in skill or find someone else to fight. I like this much better than being race-locked out of certain classes like some games. Not that it has to be either-or, but it probably should be. I think that race-choice should be meaningful beyond pure cosmetics, and I don't think they should change that.

This may very well be, but can you honestly say that the argonian passives as they exist, truly fit what they've been in Elder Scrolls games past?

keybaud wrote: »

I Really, Desperately want to make an Argonian Nightblade but I can't because ALL racials are imbalanced and broken and have been since the removal of Softcaps in 1.6. Please do SOMETHING about racial passives. And don't just give everyone a race change because there are pretty much only FOUR races people are gonna choose or change to. (I do still want race changes though) Please BALANCE the racial changes and make them less meaningful for characters.

You can have my V14 Argonian NB. She's pretty much worthless now anyway.

She had a great run up until 1.6, though.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This may very well be, but can you honestly say that the argonian passives as they exist, truly fit what they've been in Elder Scrolls games past?

Pre-apology for the long post, but I became curious about Argonian passives in the past, so I had to look and analyze.

Well now, that's hard to say, although I'd like to note that I do say that all racials should be balanced in my post (not equal, but balanced). I'm not saying that they're balanced now, though I'm not claiming that they aren't either, because I don't really look at passives much.

But as for fitting what they have been, let's take a look.

ESO (going by wiki, not in-game because I can't log in right now so these may have changed):

Restoration Expertise: 15% increase in Restor. Staff experience
Amphibious: Increase of swim speed and potion efficacy by % based on skillpoints (up to 50%/15% respectively)
Argonian Resistance: Increase of Maximum Health & Poison/Disease resistance by % based on skillpoints (up to 3%/21% respectively)
Quick to Mend: Increase healing received by % (up to 6%)

Skyrim:
Histskin: Invoke the power of the Hist to recover health ten times faster for 60 seconds. Can only be used once per day. (useless as is in online game since it is only once per day, could be modified but it's also an active skill not a passive)
Resist Disease: Your Argonian blood is 50% resistant to disease. (Get a portion of this in online and is boosted by additional resistance to poison)
Waterbreathing: Your Argonian Lungs can breathe underwater. (No underwater breathing necessary, swim speed instead).

Oblivion:
Resist Disease - 75% (Seems Argonians become more resilient against disease and then less resilient as time goes on)
Resist Poison - 100% (Much too much for an online game)
Water Breathing - can breathe underwater indefinitely (Again swim speed instead)
Disposition - +5 when speaking to other Argonians. (Unnecessary)

Morrowind:
Waterbreathing for 120 seconds (Swim speed instead)
Resist Poison - 100% (Again, too strong for online)
Resist Common Disease - 75% (As above)

Not going further back than that since most people haven't played Arena and Daggerfall and Argonians weren't exactly the same as we know them today back then.

SO, in short, the passives are actually very similar to what they were, just the efficacy is different, which is something you're going to see across all races since it's an online game. They could boost the poison resistance a fair bit and I think that would make them excellent werewolf alter-egos, even if were-zards are a bit odd (no odder than my werewolf Khajiit!) I think the disease resistance is fair comparatively, and the swim speed is a nice replacement for water breathing since the latter isn't necessary.

I think most peoples' problem is that they think that Argonians should have certain passives that make them better at a particular class, because some other races do, but historically Argonians don't have any passives like that. Now, if you take into consideration skill-buffs (the skills they start out being better at), that changes things, but no one has those advantages in the online game because skills don't work that way in ESO. Some races have been able to have their skill-bonuses translated into other aspects of the online game, but for Argonians that's harder, because the things they're good at aren't necessarily "combat-based" (at least for the way the game is now).

For instance, in Morrowind they gained bonuses to: Alchemy (non-combat), Athletics (pointless), Illusion (...), Medium Armor (could be useful), Mysticism (...), Spear (lol), and Unarmored (lol).

Oblivion: Alchemy, Athletics, Blade, Hand-to-Hand, Illusion, Mysticism, and Security.

Skyrim: Lockpicking, Light Armor, Alteration, Pickpocket, Restoration, Sneak.

They don't have a lot of "unifying" features over past games, and since they already have two sneaky races (Khajiit and Bosmer) in ESO it would have been fairly redundant to add all sneaky passives to Argonians, so they chose the restoration staff and some other classic passives. Is it perfect? No, not really, but is it appropriate given their history? Yes.

EDIT: Edited to point out that historically speaking, Argonians should be better at magicka-based builds than sneaking builds. Yes, I know all about Shadowscales, but they are a specific sect of assassins and are born under a specific constellation (the Shadow) and are trained from birth...so not your every-day Argonian.

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Not that passives couldn't use restructuring, but nothing is stopping you from making an Argonian.

Things are always going to change throughout the lifespan of an MMO, so picking your race based on what seems to be a perfect min-max combo at the moment is a bit pointless, unless you're willing to reroll every time something changes that causes you to lose 1% of your effectiveness.

exactly I rolled a bosmer nb since beta and have a bosmer dk because I like the lore and have played them since oblivian. Before the recent changes they were meh racials and the khajiit was the optimum way to nb. Then khajiit got a nerf and bosmer got a buff now bosmer is prefered over khajiit redguard might still be better though. My point is things will change and if you play argonian now not only will you have a race you like but you have buffs to look fwd too.

I did say that they should have an upper hand with magic in my post, at the end. But stealth was only added in with Skyrim, even though Shadowscales were talked about heavily and featured in Oblivion.

I also agree that if they're going to mention that type of thing in the website description, it should be reflected in-game, and that there's some discontinuity there that should be addressed.

But I still say that they did a good job representing the lore with Argonian passives. I'd say they have one of the most lore-appropriate groups of passives, although the restoration staff I'm not so certain about. I think a general magicka boost may have been wiser to balance things out a bit.

As for Orcs having greater health than Argonians, that's a given. They're Orcs. Orcs are known for their endurance more than any other race. They also should have stamina bonuses because they're a warrior race. Argonians should have at least a small bonus to magicka, though.

As for the others I offer no current opinion.

Passives are flavor, they shouldn't have to fit into your class. I guarantee you aren't even losing 1% of your dps by being an argonian over whatever flavor of the month race you think is best. Just play what you want to.

Bookwyrm wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

This may very well be, but can you honestly say that the argonian passives as they exist, truly fit what they've been in Elder Scrolls games past?

Pre-apology for the long post, but I became curious about Argonian passives in the past, so I had to look and analyze.

Well now, that's hard to say, although I'd like to note that I do say that all racials should be balanced in my post (not equal, but balanced). I'm not saying that they're balanced now, though I'm not claiming that they aren't either, because I don't really look at passives much.

But as for fitting what they have been, let's take a look.

ESO (going by wiki, not in-game because I can't log in right now so these may have changed):

Restoration Expertise: 15% increase in Restor. Staff experience
Amphibious: Increase of swim speed and potion efficacy by % based on skillpoints (up to 50%/15% respectively)
Argonian Resistance: Increase of Maximum Health & Poison/Disease resistance by % based on skillpoints (up to 3%/21% respectively)
Quick to Mend: Increase healing received by % (up to 6%)

Skyrim:
Histskin: Invoke the power of the Hist to recover health ten times faster for 60 seconds. Can only be used once per day. (useless as is in online game since it is only once per day, could be modified but it's also an active skill not a passive)
Resist Disease: Your Argonian blood is 50% resistant to disease. (Get a portion of this in online and is boosted by additional resistance to poison)
Waterbreathing: Your Argonian Lungs can breathe underwater. (No underwater breathing necessary, swim speed instead).

Oblivion:
Resist Disease - 75% (Seems Argonians become more resilient against disease and then less resilient as time goes on)
Resist Poison - 100% (Much too much for an online game)
Water Breathing - can breathe underwater indefinitely (Again swim speed instead)
Disposition - +5 when speaking to other Argonians. (Unnecessary)

Morrowind:
Waterbreathing for 120 seconds (Swim speed instead)
Resist Poison - 100% (Again, too strong for online)
Resist Common Disease - 75% (As above)

Not going further back than that since most people haven't played Arena and Daggerfall and Argonians weren't exactly the same as we know them today back then.

SO, in short, the passives are actually very similar to what they were, just the efficacy is different, which is something you're going to see across all races since it's an online game. They could boost the poison resistance a fair bit and I think that would make them excellent werewolf alter-egos, even if were-zards are a bit odd (no odder than my werewolf Khajiit!) I think the disease resistance is fair comparatively, and the swim speed is a nice replacement for water breathing since the latter isn't necessary.

I think most peoples' problem is that they think that Argonians should have certain passives that make them better at a particular class, because some other races do, but historically Argonians don't have any passives like that. Now, if you take into consideration skill-buffs (the skills they start out being better at), that changes things, but no one has those advantages in the online game because skills don't work that way in ESO. Some races have been able to have their skill-bonuses translated into other aspects of the online game, but for Argonians that's harder, because the things they're good at aren't necessarily "combat-based" (at least for the way the game is now).

For instance, in Morrowind they gained bonuses to: Alchemy (non-combat), Athletics (pointless), Illusion (...), Medium Armor (could be useful), Mysticism (...), Spear (lol), and Unarmored (lol).

Oblivion: Alchemy, Athletics, Blade, Hand-to-Hand, Illusion, Mysticism, and Security.

Skyrim: Lockpicking, Light Armor, Alteration, Pickpocket, Restoration, Sneak.

They don't have a lot of "unifying" features over past games, and since they already have two sneaky races (Khajiit and Bosmer) in ESO it would have been fairly redundant to add all sneaky passives to Argonians, so they chose the restoration staff and some other classic passives. Is it perfect? No, not really, but is it appropriate given their history? Yes.

EDIT: Edited to point out that historically speaking, Argonians should be better at magicka-based builds than sneaking builds. Yes, I know all about Shadowscales, but they are a specific sect of assassins and are born under a specific constellation (the Shadow) and are trained from birth...so not your every-day Argonian.

I would accept this if Imperials were treated the same way. In past games they had luck and a calming ability. So why must Argonians be gimped in a game to satisfy previous games but Imperials can be completely changed because in this game what they had before would be weak? It's clear that this game is different from previous Elder Scrolls games and therefore the racial passives should reflect that. If Imperials can be changed then so should Argonians to make them more useful in an MMO where these things matter more than in single-player games.

Varicite wrote: »

My problem is that due to game mechanics involving potions changing entirely in update 1.6 on top of Argonian racials themselves being outright changed w/out warning left Argonians FAR worse than they were when many of us created our characters.

It has absolutely nothing to do w/ how powerful they were in previous TES games. It has everything to do w/ them being nerfed into the ground w/out any compensation, and were already widely regarded as one of the worst races in the game prior to that nerf.

They had literally one real niche, and that was potion spamming as a NB Alchemist. But potions were changed (cooldown used to be 30 seconds, able to get it down to 15 seconds w/ potion speed glyphs), the NB passive Catalyst was changed (used to be potion strength +30%), and the Argonian racial itself was changed to be much worse overall than it used to be.

This completely killed the only real strength of an Argonian, which was being able to choose where they were strong as long as you had the gold to pay for it. Not stronger than races like Imperials, Bretons, and Redguards, mind you, but comparable.

Now they are not. They just heal 6% better than some races (big whoop) and swim faster. They bring almost nothing at all to the table outside of their aesthetics (and they do still look pretty cool).

They took almost everything away from Argonians a year after many of us created our characters, w/out warning and w/out so much as a reason. And they never gave anything back.

That's my problem.

This is spot on.