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Merciful means of questing.
Many of the quests seems to derail into killing many, many people who didn't really deserve it. This doesn't sit well with me, who am a believer in reason to begin with. I also like to be the hero of the story. But because of this, I simply aren't.
So what I'm trying to do here is to gather you guys to share ideas about how to successfully implement alternate paths of advancements through quests that does not involve killing people - or at least not killing those that are not vital to the story. We got stealth and disguises, let's work from that.
Also, wouldn't it be cool if we had a special skill line for purely non-lethal/support skills that increases as you choose peaceful options, or at least options that doesn't result in death? And maybe achivements? Make being good rewarding. Then maybe it will come naturally in time.
PS: The idea of this post and the meaning of it is obviously to expand on the way to progress through a TES game - choices are what made them popular to begin with.
Edited by Gahurkaness on May 20, 2015 6:30PM So what I'm trying to do here is to gather you guys to share ideas about how to successfully implement alternate paths of advancements through quests that does not involve killing people - or at least not killing those that are not vital to the story. We got stealth and disguises, let's work from that.
Also, wouldn't it be cool if we had a special skill line for purely non-lethal/support skills that increases as you choose peaceful options, or at least options that doesn't result in death? And maybe achivements? Make being good rewarding. Then maybe it will come naturally in time.
PS: The idea of this post and the meaning of it is obviously to expand on the way to progress through a TES game - choices are what made them popular to begin with.
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Pendrillion✭✭✭✭In my opinion we should have more optioins to intimidate or persuade npcs. Also perma stuns or knocking out people rather than killing them could be a method.7 -
Pendrillion wrote: »In my opinion we should have more optioins to intimidate or persuade npcs. Also perma stuns or knocking out people rather than killing them could be a method.
That sounds great. Like, maybe an ability to use bludgedons that does less damage but knocks npc's out.
Oh, and of course, make the knocked out people lootable.0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Speechcraft and Illusion magick could help with this.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)5 -
Ourorboros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sounds like Elder Scrolls is not really for you. Every game in the series involves killing. But so what, it's all make believe. No digital characters were really harmed during this production. If you really can't handle this, there is always chess or checkers. But you do know those are really war strategy games?PC/NA/DCBreton Sorcerer Maester.White - BB meets GoT >Master Crafter< { 9 Traits completed 4/23/15 }
TANSTAAFL--->There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.....Robert Heinlein
Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea....Heinlein
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears...in...rain. Time to die. "Blade Runner"
ESO: the game you hate to love and love to hate....( >_<) May RNG be with you (*,_,*)9 -
Ojustaboo✭✭✭✭✭
✭In real life I'm not a thief. Few months ago found a wallet stuffed full of cash and made sure the owner got it all back.
In ES games I steal and rob anything/body I can.
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Ourorboros wrote: »Sounds like Elder Scrolls is not really for you. Every game in the series involves killing. But so what, it's all make believe. No digital characters were really harmed during this production. If you really can't handle this, there is always chess or checkers. But you do know those are really war strategy games?
Actually, the TES games had the option of trying to avoid needless killing. And this is supposed to be a TES game.
You also should not ridicule what somebody else wants to see a pure CHOICE of progression. It's also not worth analyzing. If you don't agree, then my suggestion is not for you, and you don't need to have anything more to do with it. Everyone's happy.4 -
timidobserver wrote: »Speechcraft and Illusion magick could help with this.
Yeah, things like that played an important role in the singleplayer TES games - even if that was very situational.1 -
Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Try reframing the issue:
The NPCs you are supposed to kill will gladly attack you first if you hesitate.
So they really do deserve to die.Happy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.2 -
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In real life I'm not a thief. Few months ago found a wallet stuffed full of cash and made sure the owner got it all back.
In ES games I steal and rob anything/body I can.
Which is all good and fine, the point of this thread was never to question peoples morales, just my take on something I'd like added to the game that I think adds more variety.1 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you were a true pacifist, you wouldn't have purchased the game. You wouldn't have been able to justify the cost of buying a game centered around a war. That's the definition of a pacifist - unable to justify anything related to physical conflict.
It's like walking into a steakhouse and insisting on a salad because meat is murder. You can do it, but you're not going to change the steakhouse and there are more tactful ways of getting the salad you want.
There are lots of great combat-optional social games out there. Fallen London is one of my favorites. Sure, it's more of an online card game, but it has an ongoing narrative that most games can only dream of.
But if you want to proceed through Elder Scrolls Online, combat will always be a major element in the game world because that's the way the game was designed.signing off9 -
If you were a true pacifist, you wouldn't have purchased the game. You wouldn't have been able to justify the cost of buying a game centered around a war. That's the definition of a pacifist - unable to justify anything related to physical conflict.
It's like walking into a steakhouse and insisting on a salad because meat is murder. You can do it, but you're not going to change the steakhouse and there are more tactful ways of getting the salad you want.
There are lots of great combat-optional social games out there. Fallen London is one of my favorites. Sure, it's more of an online card game, but it has an ongoing narrative that most games can only dream of.
But if you want to proceed through Elder Scrolls Online, combat will always be a major element in the game world because that's the way the game was designed.
Which is why I said a BIT of a pacifist. You really can't apply pacifist values to things that doesn't exist in the real world.
I also never said "remove combat as a major element" - merely to offer an alternative that was actually worth doing.
MMO's prosper from choice, no matter how it was designed. What ultimately matters is what sort of progression that gels the best with the most players and potential players. I never went into this thinking that non-violent progression options is something everybody wants. It's merely idea-making.3 -
Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gahurkaness wrote: »
No, this is not an ethical debate, this is a video game based on combat that you chose to play. Now you could choose to sneak around and pop invisibility pots and not complete any quest objectives that require you to kill anything if you wish. Go for it. But asking the game designers to change the game design to offer options that cater to "pacifists" who choose to play war games is a bit overboard.Happy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.7 -
Gahurkaness wrote: »
No, this is not an ethical debate, this is a video game based on combat that you chose to play. Now you could choose to sneak around and pop invisibility pots and not complete any quest objectives that require you to kill anything if you wish. Go for it. But asking the game designers to change the game design to offer options that cater to "pacifists" who choose to play war games is a bit overboard.
You missunderstand. I meant that the "if they try to kill you then they deserve to die" is such a debate. Not this thread in itself.
And once more, having more choice of progression that is also rewarding is never a bad thing, if implemented right. And of course it would cater to a certain demographic. Every choice does, that's what makes it a choice. As soon as you say "maybe it's not for you" then you admit that is also caters to a certain demographic.
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dafox187✭✭✭pfft screw passiveness i need to be able to kill everyone in the quest like in fallout
don't get mad at my spelling, autocorrect doesn't cover fantasy.
Why couldn't the Khajiit go to the party? She had to be Elsweyr.2 -
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Heromofo✭✭✭✭✭The Elder Scrolls world should have a few mind tricks and it will hopefully be rectified with spell crafting as this has always been apart of the Elder Scrolls.
But remember Nirn is not a friendly place never has been hell the world is only there because of loki playing an evil trick.
Nirn is a kill or be killed world from poisons to dark pacts and the faithful sword i am surprised there is anyone left.
Remember this is a world where gods and demigods toy with Nirn for their own amusement.
I refer you to the bet between the Dream weaver and Sheogorath this world is not meant to be kind but a place where the strongest survive and the weak perish.
Hope this helps
Your forum lunatic
HeromofoEdited by Heromofo on May 18, 2015 7:20PM1 -
Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
No, no misunderstanding here. They are NPC characters in a video game and it seems you were trying to apply real life ethics to them.Gahurkaness wrote: »Gahurkaness wrote: »
No, this is not an ethical debate, this is a video game based on combat that you chose to play. Now you could choose to sneak around and pop invisibility pots and not complete any quest objectives that require you to kill anything if you wish. Go for it. But asking the game designers to change the game design to offer options that cater to "pacifists" who choose to play war games is a bit overboard.
You missunderstand. I meant that the "if they try to kill you then they deserve to die" is such a debate. Not this thread in itself.
And once more, having more choice of progression that is also rewarding is never a bad thing, if implemented right. And of course it would cater to a certain demographic. Every choice does, that's what makes it a choice. As soon as you say "maybe it's not for you" then you admit that is also caters to a certain demographic.
A video game based on a fictional war of course caters to the demographic of players who are comfortable playing that kind of game. Sure, choices are great. Who doesn't like to have choices? But overhauling the mechanics of the entire game to please a very small slice of players who the game is not even targeted for seems like not the best use of developer time.Happy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.1 -
Kalman✭✭✭✭In all honesty, I think you are playing the wrong type of game if you are a pacifist. I'm actually a little confused on why you would have thought this was a good game for you (as a pacifist). Not all entertainment is intended for everyone. I don't like Rap/Hip Hop so I don't listen to it. I don't like the premise behind a multitude of games so I don't play them. I don't like Orange is the New Black so I don't watch it. What I don't do in any of those instances is ask the artist/business responsible for that content to change it so it suits me.
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Ourorboros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LOL, you are looking for non-violent ways to advance in a game with achievements for murdering NPCs and innocent farm herds. As the game stands, sneaking is the best way to get around killing, so be a NB. However, one of the better options to improve sneaking is through a Legerdemain passive. FYI, you CAN level Legerdemain without stealing, by opening a crap ton of regular chests.
But if the point of this discussion is to drive changes in the game for non-violent advancement, I offer no support. We have had no new areas, and only one big change (Justice system) for months. In the meantime, bug and other problems like lag go unfixed. So, no, I don't want to see resources thrown at a pacifist agenda that has to appeal to a tiny minority of players before introducing new content and fixing the current game issues. I'm sure OP will not agree, and may take offense, but I would be surprised if most players don't support my position.PC/NA/DCBreton Sorcerer Maester.White - BB meets GoT >Master Crafter< { 9 Traits completed 4/23/15 }
TANSTAAFL--->There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.....Robert Heinlein
Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea....Heinlein
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears...in...rain. Time to die. "Blade Runner"
ESO: the game you hate to love and love to hate....( >_<) May RNG be with you (*,_,*)3 -
Okay, this is getting silly. Props to the people who actually contributed progressive ideas, which was the point of this thread to begin with. As for the rest of you, I really don't care if you think it fits into the lore, or if you think if fits with a certain cinematic trailer, and I most defintly don't care if you think that there is a need to argue about things that lie completly outside the original post, which was to collect CONSTRUCTIVE feedback on the idea of an alternate progression system.
I wish I hadn't mentioned the pacifist thing - it was merely an attempt to explain why I felt motivated to suggest something that adds and doesn't take away to a fake world, aka a videogame. I did so in the attempt to avoid pointless arguing and assuming about things that does nothing constructive for the idea itself.
Had I known that the exact oposite would happen, then I had not bothered to explain anything beyond the game mechanic idea at all. That is all that is relevant to me. Now that you know this, kindly stop being nonsensical. Like I said right from the get go, the point is to collect feedback of the idea - constructive feedback that is useful to the idea itself, which I should have clarified.
Your personal philosophies could not interest me less.
Edited by Gahurkaness on May 18, 2015 9:39PM1 -
vovus69✭✭✭✭Gahurkaness wrote: »Many of the quests seems to derail into killing many, many people who didn't really deserve it. This doesn't sit well with me, who am a bit of a pacifist and believer in reason to begin with. I also like to be the hero of the story. But because of this, I simply aren't.
So what I'm trying to do here is to gather you guys to share ideas about how to successfully implement alternate paths of advancements through quests that does not involve killing people - or at least not killing those that are not vital to the story. We got stealth and disguises, let's work from that.
Also, wouldn't it be cool if we had a special skill line for purely non-violent skills that increases as you choose peaceful options? And maybe achivements? Make being good rewarding. Then maybe it will come naturally in time.
Play tetris ?
"If I'll need your opinion, I'll give one to you" - Rivenspire3 -
Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gahurkaness, I see in your profile you've been a member of this forum for four days. I suspect that is why you did not know this would happen. One thing I can tell you is that people here are not shy about giving feedback to others' ideas, and sometimes that feedback is not positive.Happy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.4 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Try reframing the issue:
The NPCs you are supposed to kill will gladly attack you first if you hesitate.
So they really do deserve to die.
Yeah, just don't make the first attack. The people you need to kill are always red and will attack you if you approach. Always can be self-defense.2 -
Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The problem with Pacifism in an MMO is how would your character ever progress? Currently, Quests count for a fraction of the exp points earned in a quest. However the Mobs count for the other part, and the ratio all depends really, as some quests have lots of mobs to wade through, some do not. In most quests, I can sneak my way past most if not all mobs. But I am only losing out on character progression for doing so.
A SPG can have a pacifist option far more easily than an MMO can, just because of how your character progresses and gains exp can be changed to quest and or skill focused rather than mob kill focused. Sure, it could be possible to make an MMO with no mob experience gained for killing them (as that would be the only way to implement this), but how popular would that be?
While I applaud the OPs efforts to come up with a MMO that supports a pacifist play through, I think only a SPG can offer that, and still offer the combat that most play games to get.
While this is a TES MMO, it's still an MMO and not a TES game in the traditional sense.Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"2 -
Gahurkaness wrote: »Many of the quests seems to derail into killing many, many people who didn't really deserve it. This doesn't sit well with me, who am a bit of a pacifist and believer in reason to begin with. I also like to be the hero of the story. But because of this, I simply aren't.
So what I'm trying to do here is to gather you guys to share ideas about how to successfully implement alternate paths of advancements through quests that does not involve killing people - or at least not killing those that are not vital to the story. We got stealth and disguises, let's work from that.
Also, wouldn't it be cool if we had a special skill line for purely non-violent skills that increases as you choose peaceful options? And maybe achivements? Make being good rewarding. Then maybe it will come naturally in time.
If you think those things don't make you a hero, then you're playing the wrong game. And living in the wrong universe.
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Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gahurkaness wrote: »I really wish posts could be edited.
Click on the little gear thing in the post next to the number for the post, then you can edit it. You edit the OP in a slightly different place, but it's still the gear thing your looking for
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭People often choose to play a game a particular way, especially if they enjoy role-playing. Someone might want to make a point of drinking in every inn, or walking the entire length of the world, for example, and just the other week we had The Antiquarian explaining how he was collecting all the redundant old provisioning mats. It's equally valid to try and complete a combat-centric game without killing anything, and I used to play an open world PvP MUD where there was a complete guild set up for pacifists who were respected for their druid-like beliefs such that it was incorporated into the structure of the game - and the game was greatly enriched by the additional depth it provided.
Whilst this would at present seem to be an impossible game to complete without a lot of combat, I wouldn't for a moment dream of knocking the OP's desire to find a different way to play it and if that could be achieved by creating an additional skill line and set of achievements with sufficient demand to justify the development time then as people are quick to retort on this board - if it doesn't impact on you then why not? At the very least it would be original, unlike all the calls for e.g. necromancer skill lines which are just a variation on what we already have.Edited by Tandor on May 18, 2015 8:30PM1 -
People often choose to play a game a particular way, especially if they enjoy role-playing. Someone might want to make a point of drinking in every inn, or walking the entire length of the world, for example, and just the other week we had The Antiquarian explaining how he was collecting all the redundant old provisioning mats. It's equally valid to try and complete a combat-centric game without killing anything, and I used to play an open world PvP MUD where there was a complete guild set up for pacifists who were respected for their druid-like beliefs such that it was incorporated into the structure of the game - and the game was greatly enriched by the additional depth it provided.
Whilst this would at present seem to be an impossible game to complete without a lot of combat, I wouldn't for a moment dream of knocking the OP's desire to find a different way to play it and if that could be achieved by creating an additional skill line and set of achievements with sufficient demand to justify the development time then as people are quick to retort on this board - if it doesn't impact on you then why not? At the very least it would be original, unlike all the calls for e.g. necromancer skill lines which are just a variation on what we already have.
It means a lot to see some insight, thanks
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzhyLuXzNZY