Competitive PVE? Leaderboards? - What's the point...

PriorityBalle · May 2015

I agree, this forum isn't a place to target out a loyal member of a guild who has done considerably notable work for his guild, this forum post either isn't about Hodor so I don't see any reasons mentioning it.

My position is still the same, trials need death penalty. Surely SO HM is pretty close to impossible without deaths but reaching him is defiantly not. Death penalties ranging from around ~500 points per death is fair, not having death penalty is like rewarding the loosing team in a soccer match.

EgoRush · May 2015

Sanctum is quite difficult to do without deaths at the minute, but that's largely because of lag occurring on the bridge and with the final troll pack. We often have everything freeze then suddenly poison is on everyone and people insta-die. Anyone else seen lag in specific spots in Sanctum too?

We did a fairly solid run yesterday and got 74K without skipping any trash. That was with a whole group wipe at one point due to the lag I mentioned above. Should a score of 74K be possible with a whole group wipe? Not in my opinion. They need to address the lag in trials (it happens in HRC) and put in a death penalty again.

pppontus · May 2015

Guys, you are arguing like you were in preschool.. Either disagree/agree/expand on the points made by the OP or be quiet, this discussion is not about how l33t you are in comparison to someone.

I personally completely agree, PvP buffs are stupid silly. The point system is just the stupidest thing ever, they supposedly wanted to lessen the fact that everything in the whole damn game is just about DPS - and made it even more about DPS. I can't even take it seriously anymore, respecced all my other chars except my DK to do PvP only - there's no point in doing anything else.

And CP.. wow, whoever came up with that idea..

"Let's give an insurmountable advantage to someone who plays 24/7 above the fact that they obviously have all day to practice their gameplay anyway!"

I stopped caring about ESO when the Champion System was released and it's still relatively balanced, but it will only get worse from here. Players who used to do worse DPS than other players are now doing slightly more because a 100 more CP. In a few months those 100 will be 500. How anyone can still take ESO seriously, is kind of beyond me. ^^

All in all, IMO ESO stopped being a competitive game when 1.6 dropped. There's a reason MMOs have level caps, because you get to level X, get gear Y and then you are completely even with everyone else. If you win, it's because you're better. Now, it's just silly. Someone beat me in PvP, ok.. is he better than me or does he have 1K CP? I beat someone in PvP.. well, maybe he had 30 CP..

I only play non vet PvP now because at least it's a little bit even, as everyone has the same stats, even though I wish they would remove champion points from that too. A lot of us just want a fair playing field and then compete from there, all the stuff that's been introduced with this update has made the playing field less even.

There is just no base for competition anymore in PvE or PvP.. and it's so sad.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Guys, you are arguing like you were in preschool.. Either disagree/agree/expand on the points made by the OP or be quiet, this discussion is not about how l33t you are in comparison to someone.

I personally completely agree, PvP buffs are stupid silly. The point system is just the stupidest thing ever, they supposedly wanted to lessen the fact that everything in the whole damn game is just about DPS - and made it even more about DPS. I can't even take it seriously anymore, respecced all my other chars except my DK to do PvP only - there's no point in doing anything else.

And CP.. wow, whoever came up with that idea..

"Let's give an insurmountable advantage to someone who plays 24/7 above the fact that they obviously have all day to practice their gameplay anyway!"

I stopped caring about ESO when the Champion System was released and it's still relatively balanced, but it will only get worse from here. Players who used to do worse DPS than other players are now doing slightly more because a 100 more CP. In a few months those 100 will be 500. How anyone can still take ESO seriously, is kind of beyond me. ^^

All in all, IMO ESO stopped being a competitive game when 1.6 dropped. There's a reason MMOs have level caps, because you get to level X, get gear Y and then you are completely even with everyone else. If you win, it's because you're better. Now, it's just silly. Someone beat me in PvP, ok.. is he better than me or does he have 1K CP? I beat someone in PvP.. well, maybe he had 30 CP..

I only play non vet PvP now because at least it's a little bit even, as everyone has the same stats, even though I wish they would remove champion points from that too. A lot of us just want a fair playing field and then compete from there, all the stuff that's been introduced with this update has made the playing field less even.

There is just no base for competition anymore in PvE or PvP.. and it's so sad.

Pvp buffs are intended to help encourage people to play more of the game, not just sit in instances 24/7. Unfortunately due to complaints before launch people now can simply change their home campaign essentially at a whim, and guest into any other one or port to player to do so, removing any real incentive to hold the map of their home or feeling any tie or meaning to the specific campaign unless pushing for emperor.

Time inherently factors in skill because you gain time by finishing faster, and you finish faster by both mastering the encounters and killing them more quickly (thus, damage, and if someone dies they are losing incredible amounts of damage for the raid).

Your last complaint boggles me, honestly. In some games you earn gear but can only do so īf you re raiding in a world top guild, to progress your character. You then continuously grind and replace this gear with more as you keep playing. In ESO you get the same kinds of benefits, but much of it is split into the champion system which can be progressed by anyone, even if they aren't a hardcore raider or chart topping pvp'er. Additionally, by splitting it up, you have many more good gear options since some of it is tied to your character rather than the items themselves alone. This gives more meaning to progression nice you don't feel like you're throwing it all away every time you change anything.

Champion points in the 200 vs 800 earned range aren't that meaningful compared to your own skill, the equipment which by and large is accessible fairly easily in this game, and the friends you make to fight alongside. Unless you are speaking of 20 champion points vs 200 or 50 vs 3000, there isn't enough of a power gap that it can't be overcome with other factors feasibly. At 20 champ points you don't have enough to get the basics. At 50 you don't, either. By the time you're fielding 200 champion points, which you should reach within a couple of months of being veteran ranked which itself is quick to attain, you can get the majority of the passive power relevant to your build except base stat gains from spending the points at all. Yes, you may need to spend a paltry amount of gold to change from damaging to being a healer if you want to change what you do, but that's about it. Look at the scaling values for the important passives and it is immediately clear the "issue" has been, and continues to be by some, overblown. Also, pure equality regardless of when you played or whether you even play more than rare occasions, is bad game design in a genre based on progressing a character and competition (online RPG). If you wanted a true level playing field, you'd be playing counter strike 1.6 or starcraft 2.

PriorityBalle · May 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

Sanctum is quite difficult to do without deaths at the minute, but that's largely because of lag occurring on the bridge and with the final troll pack. We often have everything freeze then suddenly poison is on everyone and people insta-die. Anyone else seen lag in specific spots in Sanctum too?

We did a fairly solid run yesterday and got 74K without skipping any trash. That was with a whole group wipe at one point due to the lag I mentioned above. Should a score of 74K be possible with a whole group wipe? Not in my opinion. They need to address the lag in trials (it happens in HRC) and put in a death penalty again.

I agree completely, and if 2 groups complete SO in the same time, the group with least deaths should have a considerably noticeably point differential and yes the lag is a huge issue in Sanctum which ZoS need to address as I see many players crashing or getting loading screens at critically times.

Nivzruo_ESO · May 2015

This game has PvE? O.o

pppontus · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Guys, you are arguing like you were in preschool.. Either disagree/agree/expand on the points made by the OP or be quiet, this discussion is not about how l33t you are in comparison to someone.

I personally completely agree, PvP buffs are stupid silly. The point system is just the stupidest thing ever, they supposedly wanted to lessen the fact that everything in the whole damn game is just about DPS - and made it even more about DPS. I can't even take it seriously anymore, respecced all my other chars except my DK to do PvP only - there's no point in doing anything else.

And CP.. wow, whoever came up with that idea..

"Let's give an insurmountable advantage to someone who plays 24/7 above the fact that they obviously have all day to practice their gameplay anyway!"

I stopped caring about ESO when the Champion System was released and it's still relatively balanced, but it will only get worse from here. Players who used to do worse DPS than other players are now doing slightly more because a 100 more CP. In a few months those 100 will be 500. How anyone can still take ESO seriously, is kind of beyond me. ^^

All in all, IMO ESO stopped being a competitive game when 1.6 dropped. There's a reason MMOs have level caps, because you get to level X, get gear Y and then you are completely even with everyone else. If you win, it's because you're better. Now, it's just silly. Someone beat me in PvP, ok.. is he better than me or does he have 1K CP? I beat someone in PvP.. well, maybe he had 30 CP..

I only play non vet PvP now because at least it's a little bit even, as everyone has the same stats, even though I wish they would remove champion points from that too. A lot of us just want a fair playing field and then compete from there, all the stuff that's been introduced with this update has made the playing field less even.

There is just no base for competition anymore in PvE or PvP.. and it's so sad.

Pvp buffs are intended to help encourage people to play more of the game, not just sit in instances 24/7. Unfortunately due to complaints before launch people now can simply change their home campaign essentially at a whim, and guest into any other one or port to player to do so, removing any real incentive to hold the map of their home or feeling any tie or meaning to the specific campaign unless pushing for emperor.

Time inherently factors in skill because you gain time by finishing faster, and you finish faster by both mastering the encounters and killing them more quickly (thus, damage, and if someone dies they are losing incredible amounts of damage for the raid).

Your last complaint boggles me, honestly. In some games you earn gear but can only do so īf you re raiding in a world top guild, to progress your character. You then continuously grind and replace this gear with more as you keep playing. In ESO you get the same kinds of benefits, but much of it is split into the champion system which can be progressed by anyone, even if they aren't a hardcore raider or chart topping pvp'er. Additionally, by splitting it up, you have many more good gear options since some of it is tied to your character rather than the items themselves alone. This gives more meaning to progression nice you don't feel like you're throwing it all away every time you change anything.

Champion points in the 200 vs 800 earned range aren't that meaningful compared to your own skill, the equipment which by and large is accessible fairly easily in this game, and the friends you make to fight alongside. Unless you are speaking of 20 champion points vs 200 or 50 vs 3000, there isn't enough of a power gap that it can't be overcome with other factors feasibly. At 20 champ points you don't have enough to get the basics. At 50 you don't, either. By the time you're fielding 200 champion points, which you should reach within a couple of months of being veteran ranked which itself is quick to attain, you can get the majority of the passive power relevant to your build except base stat gains from spending the points at all. Yes, you may need to spend a paltry amount of gold to change from damaging to being a healer if you want to change what you do, but that's about it. Look at the scaling values for the important passives and it is immediately clear the "issue" has been, and continues to be by some, overblown. Also, pure equality regardless of when you played or whether you even play more than rare occasions, is bad game design in a genre based on progressing a character and competition (online RPG). If you wanted a true level playing field, you'd be playing counter strike 1.6 or starcraft 2.

I don't get your point though, I explained how this harms all terms of competition. I get that there's a reward simply for time spent in the game totally regardless of whether you can actually play the game or just mash buttons grinding mobs in a cave. That's fine, but as long as that's there - I consider this to be a highly non-competetive game. And if ZOS wants it to be that, fine, it's obvious they wanted to casualize everything completely by even nerfing SO to ridiculousness. But then they might as well just remove the leaderboards, right? What's the point of competition if you're not competing on a completely equal level? It doesn't matter if it's 2% extra flame damage and 1% block cost reduction, it's not a competetion on equal level and it just continues to fragment further for every minute I type a message on the forums.

You're speaking as if endless progression is the only possible solution for an MMORPG, but it isn't. I would have prefered a level cap system with gear progression any day over this crap. I have 5 VR14s, I'm not against grinding or leveling, at all. But I'm completely against a system of progression that's for the next 2 years going to punish me for having a job and a life, to me it's clear that the Champion System was a complete idiocy that Zenimax introduced solely to buy themselves more time before releasing any actual content, and as a plus it will serve as a revenue stream in the future once the game is about to die so they can milk some last cash out of selling CP or CP boost potions. As an officer of one of the largest guilds on EU, I can tell you that I haven't heard from anyone who actually ever wanted this system. Regardless of CP amount, it seems pretty clear that very few actually "likes" it - just puts up with it to various degrees.

EDIT: TL;DR - The issue is you never get to a point where everyone is equal. With level caps and gear you eventually get to the max, to the "cap" and can compete on even ground. With this system, sure, if you have patience enough to play this game for a couple of years..

Sausage · May 2015

If there wasnt score system, people would whine why to do Trials. Most games offer gears as reward, but it causes problems like...

- We all start to look like clones. Would you like this game if every tank or healer look the same?.
- Everything becomes too easy when you actually get the gears. Would you like if players just go through content with AEO spam.
- Player separation. Population is already low, would you like if you needed to wait even longer to get a Trial raid or daily dungeon?

Alcast · May 2015

PvP buffs add about 2-3k+Single Target dps and around 5-10k AoE.

with about 250-300 you can max out for example Elemental damage with an INCREASE of 25%(sure thats nothing to most ppl jesus christ? lol) Most if not all DK skills are fire dmg. Same goes for Physical stuff if you put in Mighty 25% dmg increase. So people who do say CP is not affecting performance do clearly have no freaking clue wtf they talking about.

PvP buffs in PvE and CP are the two most idiotic things introduced in the game.

But then again, ZOS doesnt care, their focus is on casual player and as a casual player you dont really give a *** about those things.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

In 1.6 Zos made the leaderboards a complete joke. In their effort to make it less about speed they made it absolutely about speed and also most about specific classes. Take vDSA, I cannot see a group without a DK tank breaking top 20. Probably not even top 50. They really didn't think through the changes.

It is def possible to do it without a DK. Though if you do not have a DK in the group you miss out the chains. But still, if you have a fairly good and experienced group it is easy doable.

Sausage · May 2015

If you remove PVP buffs, one motivation factor is gone. Thats exactly what these games fancy for.

Btw, didnt they say Seasonal Gears are coming.. maybe that raises motivation to play.

Btw2, I want game whats build around Seosonal gears/progression/content. Thats the way of the future!

Alcast · May 2015

Sausage wrote: »

If you remove PVP buffs, one motivation factor is gone. Thats exactly what these games fancy for.

Btw, didnt they say Seasonal Gears are coming.. maybe that raises motivation to play.

I wouldnt even notice if they would cancel them out bc pact has had pvp buffs for like 3 days since 1.6 (EU) :P

EgoRush · May 2015

Alcast wrote: »

I wouldnt even notice if they would cancel them out bc pact has had pvp buffs for like 3 days since 1.6 (EU) :P

3 days?! I count 2 so far

It truly is a no brainer to remove PvP buffs from PvE. Dedicated PvE players are having to rely on others to perform their best and shouldn't be forced into PvP because of this. Likewise, there are plenty of dedicated PvP players who couldn't care less about the buffs copying over to PvE content. It is senseless to have this feature in the game.

SirEwan · May 2015

Really enjoying reading the feedback here.
From what I've read the majority of people here tend to agree with my first two points but disagree with my final one, The Champion System.

Here's some good arguments from both sides:

Sausage wrote: »

If there wasnt score system, people would whine why to do Trials. Most games offer gears as reward, but it causes problems like...

- We all start to look like clones. Would you like this game if every tank or healer look the same?.
- Everything becomes too easy when you actually get the gears. Would you like if players just go through content with AEO spam.
- Player separation. Population is already low, would you like if you needed to wait even longer to get a Trial raid or daily dungeon?

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Your last complaint boggles me, honestly. In some games you earn gear but can only do so īf you re raiding in a world top guild, to progress your character. You then continuously grind and replace this gear with more as you keep playing. In ESO you get the same kinds of benefits, but much of it is split into the champion system which can be progressed by anyone, even if they aren't a hardcore raider or chart topping pvp'er. Additionally, by splitting it up, you have many more good gear options since some of it is tied to your character rather than the items themselves alone. This gives more meaning to progression nice you don't feel like you're throwing it all away every time you change anything.

pppontus wrote: »

And CP.. wow, whoever came up with that idea..

"Let's give an insurmountable advantage to someone who plays 24/7 above the fact that they obviously have all day to practice their gameplay anyway!"

I stopped caring about ESO when the Champion System was released and it's still relatively balanced, but it will only get worse from here. Players who used to do worse DPS than other players are now doing slightly more because a 100 more CP. In a few months those 100 will be 500. How anyone can still take ESO seriously, is kind of beyond me. ^^

All in all, IMO ESO stopped being a competitive game when 1.6 dropped. There's a reason MMOs have level caps, because you get to level X, get gear Y and then you are completely even with everyone else. If you win, it's because you're better. Now, it's just silly. Someone beat me in PvP, ok.. is he better than me or does he have 1K CP? I beat someone in PvP.. well, maybe he had 30 CP..

Following up on my point,
I am still of the position that CP is an absolutely attrocious endgame progression system.
I feel personally that gear should be the aim for max level players, gear only obtainable in endgame content.

We see this done in other games such as WoW. Your character becomes more powerful based on the content you complete because the harder the content, the better the loot. This is a challenging, rewarding system.

In ESO however absolutely anybody who has time to spare can grind and grind and grind as many CP as he wants to make his character more powerful. This is rewarding players for absolutely nothing.

Again comparing a Gear V Grind System, let's look ahead a few months. Someone has reached 1,000 Champion points. He is unfathomably more powerful than a player who has just started on his CP progression journey, that is someone who has just hit V14. However, if a gear based system was implemented, that fresh V14 could begin working towards completing difficult content and eventually become just as powerful as a player who has played infinitely more than him in much less time than it would take for them to grind 1,000 CP. Now we have a fair playing field, two equally geared players. Now it is down to skill, simply who can play better, not who has played longer.

If we take a fresh guild for example. Brand new, full of recently dinged V14s who want to start Raiding they will effectively never be able to compete against a guild who has been here for 2 years with 1,000 CP on all their member's characters.
A gear based system will allow more and more people to progress, be rewarded for completing harder and harder content and allow for a more competitive raiding scene. This has been proven in other MMOs.

EgoRush · May 2015

I agree completely. The Champion System is a grand idea, but they should've shortened the grind or released it in segments. What are ZOS going to do in a years time when people are reaching the thousands of CP and new players decide to jump in? Give them an autoboost to 2000 CP? That would invalidate a huge amount of effort people have made.

This grinding strategy is risking cutting them off completely from new players wanting to join, and the longer they leave it the less likely people will bother (though considering how the EU servers struggle lately, maybe that's what they are aiming for?). Or they are going to give new players an autoboost that will destroy the efforts of hardcore veterans and makes us wonder why we bothered playing when we could've just waited for new content, got the CP boost, then started playing again.

I'm not against he CP system, but I certainly would've preferred more obtainable segments in updates than a ceiling that in a few months time will separate people out massively based purely on how much they've played and not their skill.