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vigor other morph magika
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Teargrants✭✭✭✭✭
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Who expects stam builds to use magicka skills for healing? Stam builds have vigor and rally. Magicka builds don't use it as a 'stam dump' because it scales with max stam and weapon power, and because relying on your limited stam pool for primary heals is suicide when blocking and CC break is the 'stam dump' for most magicka builds. I do it, but that's because I'm wearing 5 med armor on my mag build.
I'd use it as a stamina dump.I like this idea more and more even as a Templar who probably would not use it. Let the other classes have a little more healing so it is a little less just being left on Templar. From there, I either could take a different magicka class and still have a heal without a staff, or I can play my templar and not have any excuses why someone cant heal themselves some.
I'm curious why more people don't just use it as a stamina dump while expecting stamina builds to use magicka skills for their healing / utility / etc.POST EQVITEM SEDET ATRA CVRA
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~Teargrants YouTube~
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Teargrants wrote: »
Who expects stam builds to use magicka skills for healing? Stam builds have vigor and rally. Magicka builds don't use it as a 'stam dump' because it scales with max stam and weapon power, and because relying on your limited stam pool for primary heals is suicide when blocking and CC break is the 'stam dump' for most magicka builds. I do it, but that's because I'm wearing 5 med armor on my mag build.
I'd use it as a stamina dump.I like this idea more and more even as a Templar who probably would not use it. Let the other classes have a little more healing so it is a little less just being left on Templar. From there, I either could take a different magicka class and still have a heal without a staff, or I can play my templar and not have any excuses why someone cant heal themselves some.
I'm curious why more people don't just use it as a stamina dump while expecting stamina builds to use magicka skills for their healing / utility / etc.
I did see your video, nice job w/ that btw. : )
And I was more referring to the situation prior to Vigor where people simply told classes like NBs to use things like Funnel Health and Sap Essence and quit complaining, even though they were stamina builds.
Buuut, that hasn't happened much post 1.6 thanks to the existence of Vigor.
Instead of asking for something similar for Magicka builds (which I maintain ALREADY have access to a lot of heals via Resto staff and class heals for DK / Temp, marginal heals from NB line), they want to TAKE a morph away from the extremely limited number of heals that Stam builds can use.
There is ONE healing skill that is not weapon dependent for a stamina build, and this thread is about taking away half the morph choices for this ONE non-weapon dependent healing skill for Stamina builds.
I take issue w/ that.1 -
FMonk✭✭✭✭Give me a resto staff with a heal/spell damage buff, a gap closer, an execute, and the strongest damage skill in the game and magic users won't complain about being "forced" to used it as one of their two weapons.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Give me a resto staff with a heal/spell damage buff, a gap closer, an execute, and the strongest damage skill in the game and magic users won't complain about being "forced" to used it as one of their two weapons.
Hrm, ranged weapons need gap closers now? And why would a weapon where literally every skill heals you need... another heal?
Also, you must be new around here, there are plenty of complaints from DW / Bow users who feel that they are "forced" to use a 2hander for Rally.
I will agree, though, that there should be a spell damage buff on the Destro staff.0 -
FMonk✭✭✭✭Just commenting on the irony of people complaining about being "forced" to use the best weapon in the game.
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FMonk✭✭✭✭People complaining about being forced to use a weapon with no offensive abilities/passives because they don't have access to another option such as a Vigor morph.
The better option would be a class self heal for Nightblades/Sorcs, but people have been asking for that since launch and ZOS has done nothing.Edited by FMonk on May 12, 2015 11:54PM1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭People complaining about being forced to use a weapon with no offensive abilities/passives because they don't have access to another option such as a Vigor morph.
Except that almost EVERY damaging class ability can still be used on that bar and scales from Magicka / Spell damage.
If you are a class (and I have no idea how you would NOT have a class in this game), then you have access to offensive abilities at ALL times as a Magicka build.
This is not really the case w/ Stamina builds, where the vast majority of offensive abilities are tied directly to your weapon skill line.
In the BEST case scenario (which is NBs), you have access to FOUR damaging morphs. Out of THIRTY.
Can you guess who gets to use the other TWENTY-SEVEN morphs w/ impunity? That's right! Magicka builds!
Edited by Varicite on May 13, 2015 12:04AM1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tintinabula wrote: »Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...Tintinabula wrote: »
You guys are hilarious. Still going on with the Nerf Sorc business.
so...we simply say sorcs are fine as is..definitely dont need more...and that's a cry to nerf sorcs?..lol I bet when any other class gets a buff..you see it as a nerf to sorcs lol
I wouldn't take it to heart, your car could backfire outside and he'd take offense that you were clearly trying to nerf Sorcs.
On topic: I find it completely asinine that people actually believe that you can take away a morph choice from one of the TWO viable stam heals in the game and say "Stamina builds aren't losing anything because you could only use one morph anyway!"
Of COURSE they are losing something, they are losing any semblance of player choice for HALF of their healing kit, and for WHAT exactly?
So that Magicka builds can have access to yet ANOTHER heal on top of the ton of heals they ALREADY have access to?
ok, if im a dual destro mag NB whats my TON of heals. if im a destro s/b sorc whats my TONS of heal. im not saying stam doesnt need heals im saying why not have it morph so u can choose your path, like half the class abilities where you choose mag or stam as a morph.
It ever occur to you that maybe that type of setup was balanced around not having a heal. If nightBlades and Sorcs had easy access to a heal outside of restro staff there would be zero reason to play a dk or Templar.. Neither of which have a escape mechanic
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
FMonk✭✭✭✭People complaining about being forced to use a weapon with no offensive abilities/passives because they don't have access to another option such as a Vigor morph.
Except that almost EVERY damaging class ability can still be used on that bar and scales from Magicka / Spell damage.
If you are a class (and I have no idea how you would NOT have a class in this game), then you have access to offensive abilities at ALL times as a Magicka build.
This is not really the case w/ Stamina builds, where the vast majority of offensive abilities are tied directly to your weapon skill line.
In the BEST case scenario (which is NBs), you have access to FOUR damaging morphs. Out of THIRTY.
Can you guess who gets to use the other TWENTY-SEVEN morphs w/ impunity? That's right! Magicka builds!
I wasn't aware that stamina builds aren't allowed to use any of those other skills (many of which aren't damage, they're utility/cc). That's nice, I'll be sure to let all the stamina NBs know that they're forbidden from using fear or cloak because they aren't magic builds.
Not to mention that's the only thing a stam user needs their magic pool for, whatever utility class skills they choose to slot, while magic builds need their stam for CC break/blocking/rolling, which are absurdly expensive in light armor.Edited by FMonk on May 13, 2015 12:41AM0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wasn't aware that stamina builds aren't allowed to use any of those other skills (many of which aren't damage, they're utility/cc). That's nice, I'll be sure to let all the stamina NBs know that they're forbidden from using fear or cloak.
Oh, are you suggesting that if we take out the utility abilities, that Stamina NBs have access to an equal number of damaging morphs that scale from their main resource as Magicka NBs?
Because if you're not, you're just being argumentative for the sake of it.
You're the one who said that you couldn't use offensive abilities while holding a Resto staff, not me. Now you're just going in circles.People complaining about being forced to use a weapon with no offensive abilities/passives because they don't have access to another option such as a Vigor morph.
I was merely pointing out the fallacy in your argument, because no matter WHAT weapon you're holding as a Magicka build, you ALWAYS have access to good damaging abilities that scale from your main resource.
That is not true for Stamina builds.
PS) Shall we count how many times my Magicka NB can use Cloak as compared to my Stamblades? You seem to think they are comparable.
Edited by Varicite on May 13, 2015 12:50AM1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...
Have you looked at stam builds recently? Even before the masses found out about nirn, 1.6 turned stam builds > magicka builds (and so help me god if you bring sorcs into this as the magicka builds in totality...)
Are you asking someone who has been playing Stamina Builds since the beginning of the game, Who has multiple videos of me playing stamina builds if I've seen stamina builds lately?
Right now, only Stamina Nightblade is amazingly powerful....Just like Magicka Sorc is amazingly powerful.
Pretty much every setup other then that aren't exactly off the wall over the top. Stamina DK for example with Wrecking Blow i don't find that much more powerful then my Magicka Version of it..They both kill fairly quickly and the Magicka Version absolutely rips Dodge Rollers to shreds. ..
Magicka Templar/Stamina Templar for example aren't over the top, and both are fairly balanced.....
What would adding Magicka Vigor do? It'd make Magicka Sorc bloody insane, and it'd make Magicka Nightblades bloody stupid as well.
Hell Magicka DK would gain another silly as heal as well.
So no..I don't think there needs to be magicka vigor just like I don't think there needs to be a Stamina Prox Detonation (now that would be just moronic)
I agree with you but I think it would be a good domino to fall yet. Everybody will have access to a heal that doesn't require a specific weapon even if not as great as a templar. Then get everyone access to a reflect without 1h and shield, a ln escape a shield a fear. Then When all is said and done, you have specialist but no exclusive and no reason one class should be more offensive or defensive than another. The difference would be in having just the better specialized utility. Then just nerf everyone to take care of this silly time to kill.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
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I'd use it as a stamina dump.I like this idea more and more even as a Templar who probably would not use it. Let the other classes have a little more healing so it is a little less just being left on Templar. From there, I either could take a different magicka class and still have a heal without a staff, or I can play my templar and not have any excuses why someone cant heal themselves some.
I use dodge roll for that. Lol0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not to mention that's the only thing a stam user needs their magic pool for, whatever utility class skills they choose to slot, while magic builds need their stam for CC break/blocking/rolling, which are absurdly expensive in light armor.
Oh snap, I don't need to use my stamina for CC break / blocking / rolling anymore because I also use stamina for damage?
SWEET.1 -
FMonk✭✭✭✭A 2h/bow nightblade has access to 4 damaging class stamina morphs, 4 damaging 2h abilities, and 5 damaging bow abilities. That's 13 total.
A destro/resto nightblade has access to 2 damaging Assassination abilities, 2 damaging Shadow abilities (shades are primarily used as utility, and path barely counts as damaging, but I'll count that one anyway), 4 damaging Siphoning abilities, and 4 damaging destro staff abilities. 12 total.
So are stam builds really lacking options?
My main is a stamina NB btw. But the discrepancy between magicka and stamina (in general for all classes) is so absurd right now, I have no idea how people are arguing in favor of stamina on these forums.
And we can compare how many times a magicka/stam NB can use cloak if we can also compare the number of times they can dodge roll. Edited by FMonk on May 13, 2015 12:55AM2 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No.
magcika builds already have quite a few heals. They also have access to powerful damage shileds making their survivablity higher than that of stamina build users(save the endless roll dodgers)
leave vigor for the stamina users that need it. Magicka builders already have heals; use them1 -
FMonk✭✭✭✭Not to mention that's the only thing a stam user needs their magic pool for, whatever utility class skills they choose to slot, while magic builds need their stam for CC break/blocking/rolling, which are absurdly expensive in light armor.
Oh snap, I don't need to use my stamina for CC break / blocking / rolling anymore because I also use stamina for damage?
SWEET.
Stamina abilities are far cheaper than magicka ones. CC break/rolling/blocking are also far cheaper in medium armor with reduce stamina CPs/enchants than they are in light armor.1 -
InvictoNZ✭✭✭All I'm hearing is, you want to give stamina users a stamina purge?
Stamina detonate?
Okay.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭A 2h/bow nightblade has access to 4 damaging class stamina morphs, 4 damaging 2h abilities, and 5 damaging bow abilities. That's 13 total.
A destro/resto nightblade has access to 2 damaging Assassination abilities, 2 damaging Shadow abilities (shades are primarily used as utility, and path barely counts as damaging, but I'll count that one anyway), 4 damaging Siphoning abilities, and 4 damaging destro staff abilities. 12 total.
So then you are agreeing w/ me now, yes?
Regardless of WHAT weapon a Magicka build is holding, they always have access to a variety of good damaging abilities available from their class lines, while Stamina builds damaging abilities are mainly tied to the weapon they are holding?
That is exactly what you just said, right?
BTW, don't think that I didn't notice you trying to mislead people by counting each separate morph for Stamina abilities, but then generalizing this choice down to "damaging abilities" for magicka builds.
Stamblade has access to 4 damaging class stamina choices. Magickablade has access to 20 damaging class magicka choices.
But, I digress. You clearly were talking out your derriere when it comes to "woe is me, I have no offense while holding a Resto staff" which I (and now you) have handily debunked.0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Not to mention that's the only thing a stam user needs their magic pool for, whatever utility class skills they choose to slot, while magic builds need their stam for CC break/blocking/rolling, which are absurdly expensive in light armor.
Oh snap, I don't need to use my stamina for CC break / blocking / rolling anymore because I also use stamina for damage?
SWEET.
Stamina abilities are far cheaper than magicka ones. CC break/rolling/blocking are also far cheaper in medium armor with reduce stamina CPs/enchants than they are in light armor.
Dude, Funnel Health costs like 500 magicka...1 -
FMonk✭✭✭✭A 2h/bow nightblade has access to 4 damaging class stamina morphs, 4 damaging 2h abilities, and 5 damaging bow abilities. That's 13 total.
A destro/resto nightblade has access to 2 damaging Assassination abilities, 2 damaging Shadow abilities (shades are primarily used as utility, and path barely counts as damaging, but I'll count that one anyway), 4 damaging Siphoning abilities, and 4 damaging destro staff abilities. 12 total.
So then you are agreeing w/ me now, yes?
Regardless of WHAT weapon a Magicka build is holding, they always have access to a variety of good damaging abilities available from their class lines, while Stamina builds damaging abilities are mainly tied to the weapon they are holding?
That is exactly what you just said, right?
BTW, don't think that I didn't notice you trying to mislead people by counting each separate morph for Stamina abilities, but then generalizing this choice down to "damaging abilities" for magicka builds.
Stamblade has access to 4 damaging class stamina choices. Magickablade has access to 20 damaging class magicka choices.
But, I digress. You clearly were talking out your derriere when it comes to "woe is me, I have no offense while holding a Resto staff" which I (and now you) have handily debunked.
You were the one complaining that stamina builds lacked options. I just showed you that they have a very similar number of options to magicka builds.
Please list all 20 of the damaging class magicka morphs. You won't come close to 20, there aren't that many. And if you really want to argue semantics about morphs, then stamina nightblades have access to two offensive weapon lines, each with 4-5 damaging skills that each have two morphs.
The "stamina builds lack options" BS is exactly that, BS.
And I've never complained about being forced to use a resto, but even if magicka builds were given a vigor morph which enabled them to not use a resto, they would still have access to a similar number of offensive abilities as stamina builds, because there is only one weapon in the game with offensive magicka based abilities. Allowing a magicka build to use sword and board would give them more defensive options, not offensive ones.2 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please list all 20 of the damaging class magicka morphs. You won't come close to 20, there aren't that many.
Assassin's Blade, Impale, Teleport Strike, Lotus Fan, Veiled Strike, Concealed Weapon, Path of Darkness, Twisting Path, Refreshing Path, Summon Shade, Dark Shades, Shadow Image, Strife, Funnel Health, Swallow Soul, Cripple, Debilitate, Crippling Grasp, Drain Power, and Sap Essence.
That's 20.
None of those skills use stamina, right? Then they are magicka choices.And if you really want to argue semantics about morphs, then stamina nightblades have access to two offensive weapon lines, each with 4-5 damaging skills that each have two morphs.
And my exact words were:the vast majority of offensive abilities are tied directly to your weapon skill line.
So yes, you are just agreeing w/ exactly what I said.
Since the majority of Stamina abilities are tied directly to the weapon skill lines (unlike Magicka builds, who have a LOT of offensive choices from their class skills alone), it makes sense that there be a stamina-based heal that isn't tied to a weapon line.
Since the majority of Magicka abilities are tied directly to class skills, it makes sense that they can give up a weapon slot for healing, since they continue to have access to a large variety of damaging skills regardless of weapon.
Edited by Varicite on May 13, 2015 1:38AM2 -
DezIsDead✭✭✭✭Tintinabula wrote: »Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...Tintinabula wrote: »
You guys are hilarious. Still going on with the Nerf Sorc business.
so...we simply say sorcs are fine as is..definitely dont need more...and that's a cry to nerf sorcs?..lol I bet when any other class gets a buff..you see it as a nerf to sorcs lol
I wouldn't take it to heart, your car could backfire outside and he'd take offense that you were clearly trying to nerf Sorcs.
On topic: I find it completely asinine that people actually believe that you can take away a morph choice from one of the TWO viable stam heals in the game and say "Stamina builds aren't losing anything because you could only use one morph anyway!"
Of COURSE they are losing something, they are losing any semblance of player choice for HALF of their healing kit, and for WHAT exactly?
So that Magicka builds can have access to yet ANOTHER heal on top of the ton of heals they ALREADY have access to?
ok, if im a dual destro mag NB whats my TON of heals. if im a destro s/b sorc whats my TONS of heal. im not saying stam doesnt need heals im saying why not have it morph so u can choose your path, like half the class abilities where you choose mag or stam as a morph.
Half the class abilities?
So you're saying that stamina has access to HALF of the Sorc abilities? HALF of the NB, DK, and Temp abilities?
lol, no. In reality, Sorcs have access to TWO stamina morphs of terrible skills out of the FIFTEEN total skills. THREE DK morphs out of 15. Seeing a trend here?
There has always been an overwhelming disparity of choice in favor of Magicka builds and that trend continues even today. So yes, I'm protective of the few bones that stamina builds have been given in an attempt to rectify that situation.
Now Magicka builds saw that Stam was tossed a bone and they are coming out of the woodwork here to try to steal it back, even though they have been sitting at the feast table stocked w/ all variety of sumptuous foods for over a year.
Yeah, you're not saying that stam doesn't need heals, you're just saying that stam doesn't need to have any choice whatsoever for literally HALF of their healing toolkit.
ok i certainly exxagerated on the class abilities. My b, But saying Stam builds finally got thrown a bone is a bit absurd. atm stamina build deals highest DPS. thats case and point. Sure we can talk about 1.5 and every patch prior where mag was king, but why live in the past? im done fighting the point on why i think a magicka based heal not involving a resto staff is a good idea for mag sorcs and NB's. I agreed vigor was a good idea to change a morph, is it the best idea? no its not, but its an idea and OP asked for opinions on a vigor magicka morph, not about some stam build white knight fighting the good fight. Im not saying stam doesnt need heals, and its not half you have a rally alternative. anyway keep fighting the good fight hero
Edited by DezIsDead on May 13, 2015 1:49AMDez Is Dead vr16 AD Sorc
Rez Dez vr16 DC sorc
Aimer Cantentius VR16 DC NB AKA Needs Vigor
Vanreimus Comeback DC DK
Ihealedurmum VR8 AD temp
Unonti VR crafting sloot
Zoschasedawaymyfweinds EP Temp0 -
FMonk✭✭✭✭You just counted unmorphed skills as magicka-based damage options.
This is pointless, I'm done arguing with a wall.1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Im not saying stam doesnt need heals, and its not half you have a rally alternative. anyway keep fighting the good fight hero
Taking away a morph choice for 1 out of the 2 heals that Stam builds have access to isn't taking away half of the morph choices?
One out of two is... half.
Edited by Varicite on May 13, 2015 1:43AM0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You just counted unmorphed skills as magicka-based damage options.
This is pointless, I'm done arguing with a wall.
He thought you did the same - wich is obviously not true.
Mentioned 4 stamina morphs are:
Killer's Blade, Surprise Attack, Ambush, Power Extraction.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭You just counted unmorphed skills as magicka-based damage options.
This is pointless, I'm done arguing with a wall.
Eh, my magickablade still uses Teleport Strike, which is an unmorphed skill. Is that not a choice suddenly?
The simple point that I made, before you decided to talk in circles, was that Magicka builds have access to a variety of heals. Even when holding a Resto staff, their offensive capabilities are NOT neutered because they also have access to a variety of class-based damaging options.
Stamina builds' damaging options are tied mainly to their choice of weapon. Thus, it makes sense that there be a non-class based healing option for Stamina builds, because if they were to give up a weapon slot for a Resto staff, it would be a FAR more harsh decision than a Magicka build doing the same thing.
Most Stam builds already use 2hander for Rally, even if they don't actually want to use a 2hander. Because outside of Vigor, that's the only heal they have...
Edited by Varicite on May 13, 2015 1:48AM0 -
DezIsDead✭✭✭✭Im not saying stam doesnt need heals, and its not half you have a rally alternative. anyway keep fighting the good fight hero
Taking away a morph choice for 1 out of the 2 heals that Stam builds have access to isn't taking away half of the morph choices?
One out of two is... half.
lol last comment on this to you. taking away a morph on one of the two options means 1/4th of your options are gone. Is it fair you only have 4 options? no, its not, but its still not half. but ok yeah im done this is like talking to a tree stump.Dez Is Dead vr16 AD Sorc
Rez Dez vr16 DC sorc
Aimer Cantentius VR16 DC NB AKA Needs Vigor
Vanreimus Comeback DC DK
Ihealedurmum VR8 AD temp
Unonti VR crafting sloot
Zoschasedawaymyfweinds EP Temp2 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Im not saying stam doesnt need heals, and its not half you have a rally alternative. anyway keep fighting the good fight hero
Taking away a morph choice for 1 out of the 2 heals that Stam builds have access to isn't taking away half of the morph choices?
One out of two is... half.
lol last comment on this to you. taking away a morph on one of the two options means 1/4th of your options are gone. Is it fair you only have 4 options? no, its not, but its still not half. but ok yeah im done this is like talking to a tree stump.
Well, I said taking away a morph from half of the options, not taking half of the options outright. <.<
I can understand how that might be confusing, but I'm generally not the type to insult other players because I didn't understand what I read.
/shrug0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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No, honestly, I just said "choices". At endgame, you're obviously not going to be using a lot of unmorphed skills, but overall, those choices do still exist.
As I said, I do use Teleport Strike over Lotus Fan on my magickablade, because I feel that Lotus Fan is a terrible choice for my build.
But that's probably the only case where someone would want to do that. :P
But it's not like I need to deliberately exaggerate the situation. If we were to count morph vs morph, the count is still 13 vs 4 in favor of Magicka.
It's very clear that even for the class w/ the MOST stamina morphs, the majority of your damaging skills are going to be coming from your weapon, not your class.
When talking about any class that isn't called Nightblade, this disparity in damaging abilities just becomes even MORE skewed. That's why I take issue w/ those who think it's okay to just take a Vigor morph choice away from stamina builds.
You're just robbing the poor to pay the rich, at that point.
Edited by Varicite on May 13, 2015 2:06AM2