@DezIsDead That's the problem with the whole thing, you can't just trust anyone's word and start giving magicka heals designed for stamina players or stamina players shields designed for squishy armor. There is a reason stamina doesn't have access to many great shields. And there is a reason magicka didn't also get vigor on top of their many other options. What ZOS should do is look at self healing for classes like NB and Sorc, to make them more usable (like GDB) so that you guys aren't thirsty for restoration staff. But at that point they might as well get rid of vigor as an alliance war skill and give it to NB anyway so wth. Vigor isn't so good that it would be better than healing springs, rapid regen etc.

The last thing i wanna see is DK running around stacking shields, GDB and vigor..or Templar doing the same with BS and BOL..instead of screwing around with vigor, just take a look at how to make Sorc and NB self healing better for magicka users. The foundations are there for NB, and they could come up with something better for Sorc.

ToRelax wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

@DezIsDead That's the problem with the whole thing, you can't just trust anyone's word and start giving magicka heals designed for stamina players or stamina players shields designed for squishy armor. There is a reason stamina doesn't have access to many great shields. And there is a reason magicka didn't also get vigor on top of their many other options. What ZOS should do is look at self healing for classes like NB and Sorc, to make them more usable (like GDB) so that you guys aren't thirsty for restoration staff. But at that point they might as well get rid of vigor as an alliance war skill and give it to NB anyway so wth. Vigor isn't so good that it would be better than healing springs, rapid regen etc.

The last thing i wanna see is DK running around stacking shields, GDB and vigor..or Templar doing the same with BS and BOL..instead of screwing around with vigor, just take a look at how to make Sorc and NB self healing better for magicka users. The foundations are there for NB, and they could come up with something better for Sorc.

You really think people would use Rapid Regen or Healing Springs as main selfheal or what?
If you use Healing Ward and Hardened Ward, Rapid Regen is a complete waste of a slot and Healing Springs only useful in large groups (unless you actually play a mainly healing/supporting role).

A magicka Vigor morph that doesn't get the stronger heal from Resolving Vigor wouldn't be as strong of a heal as Healing Ward is. But it would allow NBs and Sorcs to drop their resto staffs and still have access to a decent selfheal. There's like no reason against that. People wouldn't waste a slot for Vigor when they use Resto staffs, unless they wanna be healers. Wouldn't stack it. Wouldn't help them...

Dude magicka NB used both those skills all the time, i used to use rapid regen / mutagen + healing ward on a stamina NB no less and the only difference was it was a lot harder for me. Back in the day when Araxleon's magicka NB build started growing like a virus (around the time when Sypher started playing NB), there wasn't a single informed NB out there not rocking that combo.

For me as a stamina NB in this time period dominated by skirt and staff, the most dangerous class / build was a NB caster, because my prized counter sparks didn't work on swallow soul. Not only that but the small heal from that skill adds up over time when combined with healing ward and regen. I said used too before, a lot of them switched to stamina to continue that fast paced play style..and nirnhoned sucks..

I'm not discounting what you're saying, but my question to you is why wouldn't ZOS just "fix" NB and Sorc magicka healing to achieve the same result of more freedom. Instead of caving in and giving every magicka build vigor, which would serve only to buffer classes like DK and Templar that don't need it (but will surely use it anyway). And you would find on a Sorc you'd still want healing ward and hardened anyway, to combat people dropping 3K+ weapon damage on you.

Ezareth wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

@Ezareth

The benefit to healing ward and hardened ward is the stack, which enables you to survive some of the crazier burst damage in this game. At the same time you keep your HP climbing with rapid regen, it's a no brainer. I get why you'd not want to get stuck using restoration staff. I don't like getting stuck using 2H for rally, but we still need it.

I used to run Resto on my old stamina NB (Resto/DW), i had no stamina options and i built around having better magicka management. Since the shield was expensive and pretty *** for stamina builds, there was never a way for me to rely on it alone. Mutagen filled that empty spot, always keeping my HP on the rise. But it's never just letting those abilities work alone, i'd use LOS or sparks to take pressure off my HP.

"no if i had a magicka morph of vigor i wouldnt run a resto staff at all. Do you Like running 2h for rally?"

@DezIsDead

This is what you call hearsay, would be the same as if i said give stamina hardened ward and i won't also use dark cloak as a NB i promise......i'm not being selfish, it's not my game. You have always had more options available to you regardless of class than stamina.

No one that I know runs healing ward for "the stack". It's stupid to use it for that because its terribly expensive (the most expensive shield by a large margin) and it (for me) is only a 4K shield that only last for 4 seconds. Not worth the global cooldown in most cases. Sure, there are rare instances where I use it for the stack but it's rare and not particularly useful in all but a handful of cases.

And people run 2handers with Stamina builds for far more than Rally and where else will you get your major brutality buff?. Crit-charge is the best gap-closer in the game and wrecking blow is one of the most powerful stamina abilities in the game.

When you see a Sorc running a resto staff he is doing it for one reason: Healing Ward....and in group fights relying on it often screws you as your healing ward goes to someone else when you need it. There are no other reasons you'd want Resto and it denies you either the defensibility of S&B or the offensive potential of a Destro staff.

I can honestly say that I've never encountered you in PvP, but every Sorc that i see runs healing ward plus hardened ward and some heal be it springs or regen**. So I'm not really sure how to respond here. You act like it's a small shield, but I see a lot of magicka based players (like NB especially) casting it preemptively and it works really well. For my stamina NB back in the day it was too expensive and too *** of a shield to cast for no reason, i had to time it right or risk wasting magicka.

Slightly off-track here

Yes people run 2H for more reasons, that's something for another discussion. But in terms of self healing the biggest reason is rally. 1H / DW / Bow don't offer that same type of HP sustain. Virtually every stamina player runs 2H/Bow or even 2H/2H I've seen with some people. Crit rush | executioner | rally | wrecking blow works really well with the passives and utility you get with bow. There isn't much variety with stamina builds, because in the past even though DW lacked a strong burst heal it had sparks and competitive damage (among the 1% of the player base that actually used stamina).

If sparks was still in the game, there might be more diversity among stamina players. Vigor + sparks etc would be a more viable option against people running 2h/Bow. But that's a discussion for another post.

ToRelax wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

@DezIsDead That's the problem with the whole thing, you can't just trust anyone's word and start giving magicka heals designed for stamina players or stamina players shields designed for squishy armor. There is a reason stamina doesn't have access to many great shields. And there is a reason magicka didn't also get vigor on top of their many other options. What ZOS should do is look at self healing for classes like NB and Sorc, to make them more usable (like GDB) so that you guys aren't thirsty for restoration staff. But at that point they might as well get rid of vigor as an alliance war skill and give it to NB anyway so wth. Vigor isn't so good that it would be better than healing springs, rapid regen etc.

The last thing i wanna see is DK running around stacking shields, GDB and vigor..or Templar doing the same with BS and BOL..instead of screwing around with vigor, just take a look at how to make Sorc and NB self healing better for magicka users. The foundations are there for NB, and they could come up with something better for Sorc.

You really think people would use Rapid Regen or Healing Springs as main selfheal or what?
If you use Healing Ward and Hardened Ward, Rapid Regen is a complete waste of a slot and Healing Springs only useful in large groups (unless you actually play a mainly healing/supporting role).

A magicka Vigor morph that doesn't get the stronger heal from Resolving Vigor wouldn't be as strong of a heal as Healing Ward is. But it would allow NBs and Sorcs to drop their resto staffs and still have access to a decent selfheal. There's like no reason against that. People wouldn't waste a slot for Vigor when they use Resto staffs, unless they wanna be healers. Wouldn't stack it. Wouldn't help them...

Dude magicka NB used both those skills all the time, i used to use rapid regen / mutagen + healing ward on a stamina NB no less and the only difference was it was a lot harder for me. Back in the day when Araxleon's magicka NB build started growing like a virus (around the time when Sypher started playing NB), there wasn't a single informed NB out there not rocking that combo.

For me as a stamina NB in this time period dominated by skirt and staff, the most dangerous class / build was a NB caster, because my prized counter sparks didn't work on swallow soul. Not only that but the small heal from that skill adds up over time when combined with healing ward and regen. I said used too before, a lot of them switched to stamina to continue that fast paced play style..and nirnhoned sucks..

I'm not discounting what you're saying, but my question to you is why wouldn't ZOS just "fix" NB and Sorc magicka healing to achieve the same result of more freedom. Instead of caving in and giving every magicka build vigor, which would serve only to buffer classes like DK and Templar that don't need it (but will surely use it anyway). And you would find on a Sorc you'd still want healing ward and hardened anyway, to combat people dropping 3K+ weapon damage on you.

Wow, you're so clever...
I've been using Rapid Regen for a long time, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a wasted slot in the new 1.6 meta for most builds. Bring some arguments, not talking about months past.

And sure, would be nice if Sorc and NB heals were sufficient to keep you alive if you already use the other defensive tools the classes have to offer.

I'm not even going to waste more time with you, if they fix nirnhoned and more classes find magicka useful again over stamina I'll come up with better contemporary arguments for you. Kind of hard when everyone abandoned your style for reasons unrelated to healing. If rapid regen is lackluster, it'd be totally easier to pretend it doesn't exist and give you guys vigor instead of adjusting it to be more competitive or looking at NB and Sorc self healing to be more competitive. Just throw out bandaid morphs and call it a day.

Xael wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

No one that I know runs healing ward for "the stack". It's stupid to use it for that because its terribly expensive (the most expensive shield by a large margin) and it (for me) is only a 4K shield that only last for 4 seconds. Not worth the global cooldown in most cases. Sure, there are rare instances where I use it for the stack but it's rare and not particularly useful in all but a handful of cases.

Mine is almost 5k, but what you fail to leave out is it increases up to 300% based on how hurt you are. That said I at times have a 14k absorb. So no, it's not stupid. Coupled with Hardened Ward it has saved my ass more times than I can count.

Ezareth wrote: »

And people run 2handers with Stamina builds for far more than Rally and where else will you get your major brutality buff?. Crit-charge is the best gap-closer in the game and wrecking blow is one of the most powerful stamina abilities in the game.

Actually this is not true either. There are plenty of people who run 2h builds BECAUSE of Rally. Sunshine, myself, and even Kerviz use it for Rally. Most good nightblades use Ambush over Critical Rush as Ambush is the superior gap closer. This is a no-brainer. However if a class does not have a gap closer then yes, as Stam, 2h is almost mandatory to close distance quickly. Did they fix Templar charge yet?


I agree with @OdinForge if they made a magicka morph of Vigor, you would still see the same people running Healing Ward and just freeing up a different slot. Why the hell would I pass up on a 14k shield that saves my life and extra healing? That said, I really don't care if they give us a magicka morph. To me, I think it will keep Magicka builds in a more competitive spot with the current Stam meta.

Let's be honest, Stam based builds are not meant to be group healers, I could see freeing up the increased AoE version for a magicka morph. I personally can't see using Echoing Vigor over Resolving on any Stam build I run.

I didn't leave out the healing ward increase as that is irrelevant to the topic. If your base is 5 your full ward is 20K not 14K. The difference is you're applying healing ward reactively in the even you take damage, not "Stacking" it. It is functionally not different than applying a shield and then a "heal" that would heal you as well. I'm not trying to argue Healing ward is better or worse than Vigor, it's obviously better in most circumstances. I'm only arguing that people don't "Stack" the shield pre-emptively as he suggestive. It's a reactive ability chiefly.....a heal that happens to be a shield.

My main point is if we had a non-weapon ability heal you would see a ton of sorcs dropping resto staves. I would be one of them. I survive just fine using Hardened Ward spam with my destro staff but I lack a way to top myself back off after taking damage to my health which usually forces me to either heal through a tri-pot or back out of the battle and regen. This is why I can't really PvP with Destro.

As far as Ambush being superior to Crit-rush, I have to disagree as well. It depends on your circumstances. Ambush is more expensive and has a cast time that makes it far less suited to chasing down sorcs spamming bolt escape (although it is still possible to do so). It is a better surprise gank tool however but I can't animation cancel a dodge roll and remain immune with ambush due to the cast time like I do crit charge. Crit-charge is just far more fluid of an ability and has greater damage potential in most cases for my playstyle. I guess it just depends on how you like to play. I tried Ambush for awhile and just never cared for it.

Xsorus wrote: »

Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...

waay over the top.

Ezareth wrote: »

I didn't leave out the healing ward increase as that is irrelevant to the topic. If your base is 5 your full ward is 20K not 14K. The difference is you're applying healing ward reactively in the even you take damage, not "Stacking" it. It is functionally not different than applying a shield and then a "heal" that would heal you as well. I'm not trying to argue Healing ward is better or worse than Vigor, it's obviously better in most circumstances. I'm only arguing that people don't "Stack" the shield pre-emptively as he suggestive. It's a reactive ability chiefly.....a heal that happens to be a shield.

My main point is if we had a non-weapon ability heal you would see a ton of sorcs dropping resto staves. I would be one of them. I survive just fine using Hardened Ward spam with my destro staff but I lack a way to top myself back off after taking damage to my health which usually forces me to either heal through a tri-pot or back out of the battle and regen. This is why I can't really PvP with Destro.

As far as Ambush being superior to Crit-rush, I have to disagree as well. It depends on your circumstances. Ambush is more expensive and has a cast time that makes it far less suited to chasing down sorcs spamming bolt escape (although it is still possible to do so). It is a better surprise gank tool however but I can't animation cancel a dodge roll and remain immune with ambush due to the cast time like I do crit charge. Crit-charge is just far more fluid of an ability and has greater damage potential in most cases for my playstyle. I guess it just depends on how you like to play. I tried Ambush for awhile and just never cared for it.

Healing Ward increase is not irrelevant to the topic. And yes it's 20k, that was a typo.
People do stack it with Hardened Ward. Plenty of people. Most people refresh Hardened Ward after applying Healing Ward. So for the time being you have 2 shields people need to burst through to get the kill. If you want to argue semantics over the word "stacking," I am not interested. That said, people will always have a need for Healing Ward even if they add a new magicka morph to Vigor.

I agree some will drop Resto, not all though. I am in favor of this, as it adds more diversity to magicka builds.

Regarding Ambush vs Crit Rush, we will have to agree to disagree.
You are arguing with me based on circumstance and personal experience, something according to you, you just started doing. I don't have a problem catching Sorcs with Ambush. In fact it is fighting Sorcs which led me to originally switch back to Ambush over Charge. Streak can juke Charge. When they time the blink properly, you end up on the other side of the Sorc as if you never charged in the first place (in other words distance gap between you and sorc). Moreover, I can't tell you how many times I have hard cancel out due to terrain and movement from my target. Ambush on the other hand ignores these terrain issues and puts me right where I need to be including the edge of structures. Lastly there is a 20% damage buff to my next attack. This is something Charge cannot offer. Now if you want to say your playstyle is better suited for Charge that's fine, but this is personal preference. Then again, you did you say you don't open from stealth and find yourself running around out in the open not using sneak openers... something I find extremely strange and sub-optimal.

Tintinabula wrote: »

so...we simply say sorcs are fine as is..definitely dont need more...and that's a cry to nerf sorcs?..lol I bet when any other class gets a buff..you see it as a nerf to sorcs lol

Not hardly.
It's when you show up with a broadside like:

Tintinabula wrote: »

watched a sorc yesterday dance in two treb circles for well over 15 minutes absorbing with healing ward..hardened ward..purge purge purge..ya'll dont need another heal.

which is neither here nor there, but apropos for the "nerf sorc" bandwagon. You are hardly saying or implying "sorcs are fine."

Tintinabula wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...

Tintinabula wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...

waay over the top.

You guys are hilarious. Still going on with the Nerf Sorc business.

so...we simply say sorcs are fine as is..definitely dont need more...and that's a cry to nerf sorcs?..lol I bet when any other class gets a buff..you see it as a nerf to sorcs lol

I wouldn't take it to heart, your car could backfire outside and he'd take offense that you were clearly trying to nerf Sorcs.

On topic: I find it completely asinine that people actually believe that you can take away a morph choice from one of the TWO viable stam heals in the game and say "Stamina builds aren't losing anything because you could only use one morph anyway!"

Of COURSE they are losing something, they are losing any semblance of player choice for HALF of their healing kit, and for WHAT exactly?

So that Magicka builds can have access to yet ANOTHER heal on top of the ton of heals they ALREADY have access to?

Varicite wrote: »

Tintinabula wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...

Tintinabula wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Yea..I can tell you right now..certain Magicka setups with a Magicka Vigor would be over the top...

waay over the top.

You guys are hilarious. Still going on with the Nerf Sorc business.

so...we simply say sorcs are fine as is..definitely dont need more...and that's a cry to nerf sorcs?..lol I bet when any other class gets a buff..you see it as a nerf to sorcs lol

I wouldn't take it to heart, your car could backfire outside and he'd take offense that you were clearly trying to nerf Sorcs.

On topic: I find it completely asinine that people actually believe that you can take away a morph choice from one of the TWO viable stam heals in the game and say "Stamina builds aren't losing anything because you could only use one morph anyway!"

Of COURSE they are losing something, they are losing any semblance of player choice for HALF of their healing kit, and for WHAT exactly?

So that Magicka builds can have access to yet ANOTHER heal on top of the ton of heals they ALREADY have access to?

ok, if im a dual destro mag NB whats my TON of heals. if im a destro s/b sorc whats my TONS of heal. im not saying stam doesnt need heals im saying why not have it morph so u can choose your path, like half the class abilities where you choose mag or stam as a morph.

technohic wrote: »

I like this idea more and more even as a Templar who probably would not use it. Let the other classes have a little more healing so it is a little less just being left on Templar. From there, I either could take a different magicka class and still have a heal without a staff, or I can play my templar and not have any excuses why someone cant heal themselves some.

I'd use it as a stamina dump.