Competitive PVE? Leaderboards? - What's the point...

SirEwan · May 2015

Making this post to further emphasize some concerns that the community has had since release of the game, but especially since the release of 1.6.
I will keep it short and simple, attempt to format appropriately to make my points and evidence clear and hope that ZoS and the community listens to these concerns once more so we can attempt to change the PvE aspect of the game for the better.

• Unfair Buff System
When attempting to compete against other guilds of the enemy faction in PvE Environments, it needs to be a level playing field.
Right now, whoever has the most PvP Buffs is at a major advantage. Even more outrageous is that PvP is affecting PvE. These two fields should be completely separate.

• Point System
The point system is completely imbalanced. Currently the mainstream tactic is to skip all trash mobs, and even some bosses in Trials by actually dying to reach the endboss faster and complete the event quicker. This has been shown to provide the most points. This means the point penalty per death is negligible compared to the point gain per second in Trials. You are basically not punished for dying anymore in Trials. The older system was much better in that you actually had a significant punishment for failing. Now it is all about skipping as much mechanics as possible, even if it means losing 24+ lives, to achieve a faster time thus achieving a higher score.

• Champion System
This goes without saying. Whoever grinds the most points, does more damage, takes less damage and has the higher advantage in all areas of the game. This is similar to the Emperor system in PvP. Whoever plays the most, wins.

Please Zenimax, make PvE a fair environment. Currently it is undeniably unfair.

Follow up Comment from Page 2 on The Champion System
Following up on my point,
I am still of the position that CP is an absolutely attrocious endgame progression system.
I feel personally that gear should be the aim for max level players, gear only obtainable in endgame content.

We see this done in other games such as WoW. Your character becomes more powerful based on the content you complete because the harder the content, the better the loot. This is a challenging, rewarding system.

In ESO however absolutely anybody who has time to spare can grind and grind and grind as many CP as he wants to make his character more powerful. This is rewarding players for absolutely nothing.

Again comparing a Gear V Grind System, let's look ahead a few months. Someone has reached 1,000 Champion points. He is unfathomably more powerful than a player who has just started on his CP progression journey, that is someone who has just hit V14. However, if a gear based system was implemented, that fresh V14 could begin working towards completing difficult content and eventually become just as powerful as a player who has played infinitely more than him in much less time than it would take for them to grind 1,000 CP. Now we have a fair playing field, two equally geared players. Now it is down to skill, simply who can play better, not who has played longer.

If we take a fresh guild for example. Brand new, full of recently dinged V14s who want to start Raiding they will effectively never be able to compete against a guild who has been here for 2 years with 1,000 CP on all their member's characters.
A gear based system will allow more and more people to progress, be rewarded for completing harder and harder content and allow for a more competitive raiding scene. This has been proven in other MMOs.

PriorityBalle · May 2015

+ On everything

Having competitive gameplay based on wiping and running past ads in certain trials isn't strategic, it's pure idiotic and ruins the point of having ads placed in in the first place, See no point in removing death penalty from trials it should get reinstated as fast as possible.

daemonios · May 2015

I agree with your first two points, but completely disagree with the third.

The Champion System is the successor to VR levels. Just as a VR14 character is (or can be) more powerful than a VR1, a person with 200 CP is (or can be) more powerful than someone who has fewer. It doesn't distinguish between factions or classes. Anyone can grind CP if they're so inclined. If they remove the Champion System or nerf the bonuses into irrelevancy, what progression is left?

Sacadon · May 2015

Good to see someone realize that while PvP buffs are nice, you can't fully appreciate winning if you know those you beat didn't have an advantage you did, that you didn't earn individually on your character.

CPs, your logic on this is flawed in that it's simply another vertical progression system like levels. Based on the logic presented, if you were VR10 and your opponents VR14 it would be unfair, which is silly. If you want to be competitive, just be that.

Latter · May 2015

SirEwan wrote: »

• Point System
The point system is completely imbalanced. Currently the mainstream tactic is to skip all trash mobs, and even some bosses in Trials by actually dying to reach the endboss faster and complete the event quicker. This has been shown to provide the most points. This means the point penalty per death is negligible compared to the point gain per second in Trials. You are basically not punished for dying anymore in Trials. The older system was much better in that you actually had a significant punishment for failing. Now it is all about skipping as much mechanics as possible, even if it means losing 24+ lives, to achieve a faster time thus achieving a higher score.

Absolutely untrue, first of all you and your guild have barely done any hardmode content since 1.6 to experience how the point distribution for the top 5-10 actually works, second of all, between all the top 4 pve eu guilds atm, none of them are skipping anything in any trial or dying intentionally anywhere (excluding not doing sanctum feeding pit). The absolute best scores for sanctum are obtained by a time of 20 minutes, hardmode and ~60 souls, i have no clue where you got this from or why you would think this.

Latter · May 2015

The leaderboard system for TRIALS is better now then it has ever been, everyone said the opposite, including me at 1.6 launch. Now if you ask any guildmember who has done all 3 trials with more then 60k points they will say this is alot more fun,challenging and the skill level is higher.

SirEwan · May 2015

daemonios wrote: »

I agree with your first two points, but completely disagree with the third.

The Champion System is the successor to VR levels. Just as a VR14 character is (or can be) more powerful than a VR1, a person with 200 CP is (or can be) more powerful than someone who has fewer. It doesn't distinguish between factions or classes. Anyone can grind CP if they're so inclined. If they remove the Champion System or nerf the bonuses into irrelevancy, what progression is left?

1) Grinding CP to become more powerful is purely rewarding players who have more time on their hands to be more successful.

2) What progression is left? More Raids, More Dungeons, More Arenas, More Gear. The game has had absolutely no new endgame content for 8 months. Progression in the form of better gear for harder content completed instead of better gear per hours spent farming gold (as all the best gear is BoE) is a more rewarding and fairer progression system than farming mobs for CP in my view.

SirEwan · May 2015

Latter wrote: »

SirEwan wrote: »

• Point System
The point system is completely imbalanced. Currently the mainstream tactic is to skip all trash mobs, and even some bosses in Trials by actually dying to reach the endboss faster and complete the event quicker. This has been shown to provide the most points. This means the point penalty per death is negligible compared to the point gain per second in Trials. You are basically not punished for dying anymore in Trials. The older system was much better in that you actually had a significant punishment for failing. Now it is all about skipping as much mechanics as possible, even if it means losing 24+ lives, to achieve a faster time thus achieving a higher score.

Absolutely untrue, first of all you and your guild have barely done any hardmode content since 1.6 to experience how the point distribution for the top 5-10 actually works, second of all, between all the top 4 pve eu guilds atm, none of them are skipping anything in any trial or dying intentionally anywhere (excluding not doing sanctum feeding pit). The absolute best scores for sanctum are obtained by a time of 20 minutes, hardmode and ~60 souls, i have no clue where you got this from or why you would think this.

I don't care if it's being used or not. The fact that it is in the game makes it completely pointless to compete. I also have absolutely no interest in debating against other guilds or the tactics they use.

Latter · May 2015

I don't care if it's being used or not. The fact that it is in the game makes it completely pointless to compete. I also have absolutely no interest in debating against other guilds or the tactics they use.

Its not being used because its not a reliable tactic and it does not give you better scores, wich is what you claimed its proven to do.

Shadesofkin · May 2015

I actually agree with your first two points in theory, but on the third point you're incorrect.

Emma_Overload · May 2015

SirEwan wrote: »

• Unfair Buff System
When attempting to compete against other guilds of the enemy faction in PvE Environments, it needs to be a level playing field.
Right now, whoever has the most PvP Buffs is at a major advantage. Even more outrageous is that PvP is affecting PvE. These two fields should be completely separate.

These are the truest words of wisdom I've read all day. PvP buffs in PvE are a CURSE on this game. It's so bad for morale to have a "nerf" on your build that the player, as an individual, can do absolutely nothing about.

Islyn · May 2015

Oh my word.
1. If pvp buffs in pve didn't exist you'd have no one left to zerg over.
2. BS if you wanna compete with top scores then do it. Clearly you seem to think you already know how - so carry on.
3. Rubbish. ZOS introduced this snipshow so deal with it. people who play more WILL BE BETTER than people who don't. Play more or get over it. Sorry but whatever time people put into the game is missing from somewhere else.

Look at your other stuff and if the game is more important then make space. If not then be glad for it. Only you can choose where to spend your time so stop complaining when others spend more time here than you

If you wanna be leaderboard top you must put the time in. End Of.

Suru · May 2015

You don't skip anything in AA, You dont skip anything in hell ra, and the only thing you skip in Sanctum is the feeding pit, which is reasonable. In DSA you dont skip anything but killing mini bosses in hiaath.

Honestly time is important for better scores but to do things fast people in your group comp needs to be competent. Even if yiu had to kill more adds or more mini bosses, the people in the top 10 will still do it faster amd better than everyone complaining. Lives should factor in a tad bit more tho.

The only thing out of most people's control are the pvp buffs which is dependent on faction stremgth at times.

Eucken · May 2015

SirEwan wrote: »

• Point System
The point system is completely imbalanced. Currently the mainstream tactic is to skip all trash mobs, and even some bosses in Trials by actually dying to reach the endboss faster and complete the event quicker. This has been shown to provide the most points. This means the point penalty per death is negligible compared to the point gain per second in Trials. You are basically not punished for dying anymore in Trials. The older system was much better in that you actually had a significant punishment for failing. Now it is all about skipping as much mechanics as possible, even if it means losing 24+ lives, to achieve a faster time thus achieving a higher score.

Depending on your DPS skipping things can increase your score.

However we found that this is only true as long the total point value for skipping + points lost on the mobs is greater then not skipping + extra points.

And yes skipping sometimes costs extra time. Because you have to sneak at certant places or even die.

I think skipping can help groups with low DPS to get a low 60k score but if you have the DPS skipping is not recommended, because just killing everything is often faster and gives you extra points.

EgoRush · May 2015

I agree completely about the deaths needing a harsher penalty. Even if people aren't wiping and skipping trash, the option is there and does reduce the time massively. I know a guild that tested it and they made it to The Serpent in 12 minutes. Activate HM, kill the boss, and job's done. You still need a decent group for top DPS, but it's very easy to wipe and run through most of the trash in Sanctum without consequence.

The old system had a harsh penalty for deaths - you would not get near the top scores with deaths/whole group wipes. Didn't ZOS say that trials scores would be based on adds killed with time being a bonus and deaths being a penalty? This clearly isn't the case. Time is the only factor that matters, the only difference is a lack of consequence for dying. We've had slow-ish arena runs with zero deaths at lower scores than faster runs that had a handful of deaths (we thought a combat res gave points for a while haha).

PvP buffs in PvE is getting annoying when the competition has constant buffs and we never do

we can't make our build optimal. If we have emperor and spec for lower health and higher magicka/stamina we risk losing emperor halfway through a run and being one-shotted from having our health plummet. It should be a consistent, even playing field.

Overall: we either need a penalty on deaths again or barriers preventing progression until adds are dead. The trials will be more controlled that way IMO.

Katinas · May 2015

Latter wrote: »

excluding not doing sanctum feeding pit

Can anyone confirm that Feeding Pit gives aditional points to total score? If so, how much? Is the same true for horn achievement in Hel Ra?

Phinix1 · May 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

SirEwan wrote: »

• Unfair Buff System
When attempting to compete against other guilds of the enemy faction in PvE Environments, it needs to be a level playing field.
Right now, whoever has the most PvP Buffs is at a major advantage. Even more outrageous is that PvP is affecting PvE. These two fields should be completely separate.

These are the truest words of wisdom I've read all day. PvP buffs in PvE are a CURSE on this game. It's so bad for morale to have a "nerf" on your build that the player, as an individual, can do absolutely nothing about.

Absolutely agree. PVP buffs outside of Cyrodiil are disgusting and need to go away. People have said it since launch.

It is particularly bad now that so many big PVP guilds are bored and basically rolling alts on other factions to Emperor swap all day, you can't even predict which server is going to be reliably strong for your faction anymore.

Totally demoralizing and a constant nuisance. ZOS make them GO!

And please, don't give me any of that "go earn them back" BS. PVP is all about the zerg. Either you go in with a big group of roughly 20 organized players or you won't be taking back jack squat.

Especially from your own guys that happen to be in the middle of an Emperor farm.

Usara · May 2015

Suru wrote: »

You dont skip anything in hell ra

You can skip half the packs between first and second boss. Usually, we have a better score at the end when skipping them (score seems to be all speed, even in trials).

@SirEwan
I agree on the PvP buff. I always thought that was silly, especially since the buff are so OP. If it was only exp, gold... why not (even though now with the champ system even exp seems unfair x) )
I remember 6-8 months ago, when crit was the stat to have in PvE, and Cyro buff gave 10% when faction owned (at the time, this faction was usually a yellow faction - and guess what ? top leaderboards only had winged players... coincidence ? ^_^)

I agree on the Point system. Not because of what I said earlier about skipping trashs. But rushing should be one of the tactics available, not the only tactic to beat a score.
At least, HM give many more point and that's the only sensible thing in the scoring.
I'd like to see other things entering the calculation of the score : number of deaths of course, AoE avoided/blocked, number of CC used, that kind of stuff... Yeah, I know it would be technically difficult, and that's not the point

Point is : score based on time only is boring, uninteresting and unfair. Especially when it was supposed to be something else than timer alone.

I disagree about the champion system. It is not the same thing as Emperor, you're not competing with other people to get your CP.
It's the same for everyone: 400k = 1CP.
Saying it's unfair because people who play more have more CP is like saying it is unfair that people who can play 8 hours a day level faster than the ones playing one hour per day ^_^

bloodenragedb14_ESO · May 2015

i only have an issue on your evaluation of the of the CP effect on the leaderboards.

really, shouldnt those who play the game more have a leg up, why oh why do people think that those who play less should be equal.
Ill concide that CP should be turned off in one or even two pvp campaigns, but CP should not be removed from competitive PVE or PVP entirely.

If you play a game more, you should get a leg up over others

Latter · May 2015

Katinas wrote: »

Latter wrote: »

excluding not doing sanctum feeding pit

Can anyone confirm that Feeding Pit gives aditional points to total score? If so, how much? Is the same true for horn achievement in Hel Ra?

You get a certain amount of points for each mob you kill (like 10 or so). So doing feeding pit gives you a few hundred points, but the time you spend doing it greatly outweighs the reward.

Warhorn does not give any bonus points, only killing the guard standing infront of it gives you some 5 points or so.

PriorityBalle · May 2015

Just add a death penalty to the point system and reset the leaderboards.

Alcast · May 2015

Latter wrote: »

The leaderboard system for TRIALS is better now then it has ever been, everyone said the opposite, including me at 1.6 launch. Now if you ask any guildmember who has done all 3 trials with more then 60k points they will say this is alot more fun,challenging and the skill level is higher.

1. Not having Death penalty is completly stupid.
2. Trials got nerfed and are easier as ever.

I cant say its more fun

Warden.Commander · May 2015

Islyn wrote: »

people who play more WILL BE BETTER than people who don't. Play more or get over it. Sorry but whatever time people put into the game is missing from somewhere else.

Look at your other stuff and if the game is more important then make space. If not then be glad for it. Only you can choose where to spend your time so stop complaining when others spend more time here than you

If you wanna be leaderboard top you must put the time in. End Of.

+1 to this. Not everything has to be "equal" for everyone. We are all aware of a (in)famous mmo who did this and we all know where it has ended up now... Like with everything else in life, all is a matter of choice and balance between the things you do and the time you spend. I have absolutely no problem if others are "better" because they chose to put more time in the game.

In other words, to counter argue your 3rd point: Isn't it also unfair for people who spend more time in the game to have the same end results as a reward with those who spent less time?

PS. I count myself among those who don't see this game as their first priority, most of the times, thus I play less than others.

Jaerlach · May 2015

Katinas wrote: »

Latter wrote: »

excluding not doing sanctum feeding pit

Can anyone confirm that Feeding Pit gives aditional points to total score? If so, how much? Is the same true for horn achievement in Hel Ra?

Feeding pit adds 2000 points to your base score, but the time it takes costs you more points than it adds.

Slow runs with feeding pit will end with 124 points instead of 104 points, for example.

PriorityBalle · May 2015

Having a competitive leaderboard that doesn't punish deaths in trials is ridiculous, If you can intentionally wipe in SO 3 times in strategic positions and skip all bosses and end up at the Serpent in less than 12 minutes, activate HM and kill him to get a high score the point system is flawed IMO.

If your raid reaches serpent with ~ 60 lives you don't deserve a high position on the leaderboard because 12 deaths is equivalent to your whole group wiping which SHOULD give a point penalty for obvious reasons. Each death in a trial environment should give some kind of penalty that fits the certain trial whether it be Atherian Archive, Hel Ra Citadel, Sanctum Ophidia or the Dragonstar Arena, 250 point penalty should be minimum in any trial for a death and 500 should be the maximum, if you don't think deaths in raid environments should be punished go and do some roleplay.

Benawaw89 · May 2015

1. we did 79k SO w/o pvp buff , so dont make it big deal. i did 18k dps also w/o pvp buff
2. if you skip boss , you wont get end score
3. CP doesnt matter unless ur cp 3600. right now average cp 180-250. it s no biggie. most of all rotation and tactics beat the most who have CP.

PriorityBalle · May 2015

xD

DC without PvP buffs ? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

idk · May 2015

In 1.6 Zos made the leaderboards a complete joke. In their effort to make it less about speed they made it absolutely about speed and also most about specific classes. Take vDSA, I cannot see a group without a DK tank breaking top 20. Probably not even top 50. They really didn't think through the changes.

idk · May 2015

Benawaw89 wrote: »

PriorityBalle wrote: »

xD

DC without PvP buffs ? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[...]

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

In 1.6 Zos made the leaderboards a complete joke. In their effort to make it less about speed they made it absolutely about speed and also most about specific classes. Take vDSA, I cannot see a group without a DK tank breaking top 20. Probably not even top 50. They really didn't think through the changes.

[...]

My advice is not invalid and a group reaching 10.5k without a DK tank understands exactly how much harder they have to work. To reach that score and that they'll never hit top score. Next?
May have been a little off in my prediction. Guess it is safe to say top 10 likely needs a DK tank.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

LameoveR · May 2015

SirEwan wrote: »

• Champion System
This goes without saying. Whoever grinds the most points, does more damage, takes less damage and has the higher advantage in all areas of the game.

It's like saying "who levels up - does more blah blah blah"
What a nonsense.

EgoRush · May 2015

Benawaw89 wrote: »

PriorityBalle wrote: »

xD

DC without PvP buffs ? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[...]

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

In 1.6 Zos made the leaderboards a complete joke. In their effort to make it less about speed they made it absolutely about speed and also most about specific classes. Take vDSA, I cannot see a group without a DK tank breaking top 20. Probably not even top 50. They really didn't think through the changes.

[...]

That is some great DPS on Manti, nice! Especially if it's without PvP buffs. Some of our DKs are hitting 19K on Mantikora and The Serpent with zero PvP buffs, so I can confirm it's definitely possible. No one is going to argue with the fact PvP buffs will boost this considerably though. I tend to get 2-3K more DPS with full buffs. Factor that into a 12-man group and it's a game changer. The last time I played on EP with full buffs was a Monday morning I happened to have off work. We can't compete with the top scores when prime time we have zero buffs. Yes I'm whingeing, but it's the truth. We can get a high 10K score in arena without buffs, but breaching 11K has not happened without at least some buffs.

As for CP, I can see your point, but I'm not fond of a ceiling I won't reach until a years time. I prefer incremental increases much like what other MMOs do (introduce a patch and 5 new levels to obtain *shrug*). That's personal preference though. However, CP do start to make a difference, especially when you start unlocking the next tier of passives. Alas, that's simply progression. We need to accept that whatever scores we obtain now will be redundant in a months time when we're pushing out a little more damage.

@SirEwan isn't a shame for Hodor, there's no need to reduce the tone with such accusations, these forums are here so we can communicate our thoughts on the game. Many of us are in agreement with most, if not all, of these points. The PvP buffs need to be removed from PvE. You can't argue with having an consistently even playing field.

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]