flaw with justice system

kgold0 · May 2015

I was in a storage room with another npc. I mistook him for another player character so I didn't even bother sneaking while stealing. All of a sudden this npc starts punching me and because I'm in combat I can't leave the storage room. I don't want to kill him so I try and log off. I come back dead.

Cherryblossom · May 2015

How is your mistake a flaw?

Snoopsy · May 2015

Right, what do you want Zenimax to do about your mistake?

Divinius · May 2015

The flaw is the fact that you are forced to either kill an innocent or die, if you pick up an owned loaf of stale bread inside a building.

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

C0pp3rhead · May 2015

You can't interact with doors (outside of pvp) while in combat. Logging off to avoid combat or death hasn't worked in MMO's since the new millennium came around. When you log off, your character will usually persist in the world for a good 10s or so to prevent you from... well... doing exactly what you tried to do.

You mistook an NPC for a player. You made a mistake. Instead of accepting the consequences of your mistake, you tried to run away and ended up dead. Fitting.

plattypussb16_ESO · May 2015

It would be interesting if you could be provided more options using the persuade or intimidate technique to further capitalize on the mage and fighter guild skills. There could even be a bribe option. None of these things would mean no bounty but it might result in a slight delay to escape the scene and then worry about whether the person you bribed, intimidated or persuaded ratted you out later.

I suppose it could even work the other way and the NPC could try and do the same, and play the blackmail game. Or just as amusing a priest could try and persuade you from your evil ways.

SHADOW2KK · May 2015

Lol OP cool story, but have to agree with the others and say also that you messed up, not the game.

Hope you enjoy the game more and learn more as time goes on.

Lifsteinn · May 2015

You can enable an option "Prevent Attacking Innocents" in gamplay preferences.

Daemons_Bane · May 2015

+1 on that this is not a flaw :-) be more careful when trying to empty someones pockets.. I do agree though, that some options would be exciting.. like sheating your sword in skyrim

JD2013 · May 2015

So, did you learn to not pick pockets willy nilly?

Justice system working as intended, I would say.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO · May 2015

Divinius wrote: »

The flaw is the fact that you are forced to either kill an innocent or die, if you pick up an owned loaf of stale bread inside a building.

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

Agreed.
You should not be forced to kill a civilian.

BloodWolfe · May 2015

That's not a flaw, that's your own mistake for not paying attention.

Sure I hate that you can't exit a building once an NPC attacks you like that but it still boils down to your mistake for not paying attention that it was an NPC not a player. Don't blame the game and the justice system, take responsibility for your actions and deal with it!

TheShadowScout · May 2015

Seems to work as intended then...

That said...

Sadly, all we have is "pay a fine" and "kill on sight" - while I'd love to see some option to "surrender" to guards and citizens, resulting in some more varied punishments. Spending 10 minutes online time in the stocks? Getting a whipping with a persistent (not merely time, but online time, so people can't just log to dodge it) attribute debuff? Going to a "prison isle" public dungeon to either do your time or escape?

ShadowMage · May 2015

BloodWolfe wrote: »

That's not a flaw, that's your own mistake for not paying attention.

Yes, the fact that the NPC attacked was OP's fault, but this:

BloodWolfe wrote: »

...you can't exit a building once an NPC attacks you...

This is the flaw in the system. I don't understand why they decided to disable doors when you enter combat. What purpose does it serve? The only option at that point is to kill the NPC or die, unless the NPC is a guard, then your only choice is to die.

I've never personally experienced this issue, but I've never tried to leave a building while in combat. I got caught pickpocketing once, but the NPC didn't attack and I was able to leave. Can you enter buildings when you're running from the guards? You can enter the refuge, obviously, but I've never tried entering other buildings. I'm gonna have to test these things...

c.p.garrett1993_ESO · May 2015

@ShadowMage - Only the refuge. Any other door appears to be blocked.
Apparently the Justice System also includes magical "criminal-proof" door wards.

@TheShadowScout - Shivering Isles dungeon comes to mind. You escape and you're cleared. Normally this wouldn't make sense but in the middle of a war such as this it makes sense that they give the strong a chance to escape and fight for their alliance. Despite their crimes.

Pallmor · May 2015

Lifsteinn wrote: »

You can enable an option "Prevent Attacking Innocents" in gamplay preferences.

That wouldn't have helped in this case. Whether you choose to attack innocents or not, they will still attack YOU in many cases (like when you try to steal from them).

Davadin · May 2015

Justice system Works As Intended.

Unable to open doors during combat?

BUG.

I don't mind NOT being able to open door because somebody's HITTING me. Because the animation of opening a door MUST be undisturbed. That is TOTALLY FINE.

But when I stunned the NPC on the first floor, RAN ALL THE WAY TO THE SECOND FLOOR AT THE OTHER END OF THE BUILDING........ and NPC will take at least 10 seconds to catch up with me, THEN I WANT TO BE ABLE TO OPEN DOORS.

Smaller example: I mistakenly took a bread on a table in the bank in Riften. It's a small space. There's a guard. End of *** story.

Tandor · May 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

AlnilamE · May 2015

Invisibility potions are your friend here.

Araxleon · May 2015

This is a flaw with the system and has happened to me... Its not your mistake, hopefully they fix it. (Im talking about not being able to escape through the door) they confirmed with me it was a bug and returned my money (80k to be exact)I lost due to that issue.

Most people from what ive seen will say its -your fault- or -you have a bounty you deserve to die-
but honestly you shouldnt be dying from things like that and it needs to get fixed... <.< but yeah a majority of people will still blame you for entering the room for the simple fact that you are a criminal and criminals should die (no matter how they die)

CRIMINALS HAVE THE RIGHTS TO OPEN DOORS WHILE IN COMBAT - 2015
(Skyrim,morrowwind and oblivion all have this.)

Davadin · May 2015

Araxleon wrote: »

CRIMINALS HAVE THE RIGHTS TO OPEN DOORS WHILE IN COMBAT - 2015
(Skyrim,morrowwind and oblivion all have this.)

qsnoopyjr · May 2015

ShadowMage wrote: »

BloodWolfe wrote: »

That's not a flaw, that's your own mistake for not paying attention.

Yes, the fact that the NPC attacked was OP's fault, but this:

BloodWolfe wrote: »

...you can't exit a building once an NPC attacks you...

This is the flaw in the system. I don't understand why they decided to disable doors when you enter combat. What purpose does it serve? The only option at that point is to kill the NPC or die, unless the NPC is a guard, then your only choice is to die.

I've never personally experienced this issue, but I've never tried to leave a building while in combat. I got caught pickpocketing once, but the NPC didn't attack and I was able to leave. Can you enter buildings when you're running from the guards? You can enter the refuge, obviously, but I've never tried entering other buildings. I'm gonna have to test these things...

If you play on super crazy high settings, the NPC puts his foot on the door while you try to open it, thats why you cant use doors in combat PVE.

Makes sense too, because if someone is trying to kill you, do you think they'll let you open that door? NOPE, they gonna block you from opening it and keep on trying to kill you.

Not sure if you know, but these NPCs are living off welfare, so that loaf of bread is there LIFE, and they'll do anything harmful to you if you mess with them like taking there loaf of bread... They have every right too.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO · May 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

How is it logical or fair that you must kill an innocent civilian who has come at you?
Presuming I were a thief and were caught I would try to flee, unless defending myself were 100% necessary. I really wouldn't want to add on to the trouble I will have by hurting/ killing a civilian.
I'm more than willing to accept responsibilities IRL, but the point to being a thief (or a criminal in general) is not to face the consequences of your actions. Are we just going to through out RP in an RPGMMO? Especially with a series that has been a long-standing part of the RP community for decades?

Turelus · May 2015

Would be nice if we could open doors once in combat with the NPC.

However the issue then is they can't travel outside with us like they could in singe player TES games so we could steal, get a guard chasing us and then run out the door and sneak to victory.

RSram · May 2015

ShadowMage wrote: »

BloodWolfe wrote: »

That's not a flaw, that's your own mistake for not paying attention.

Yes, the fact that the NPC attacked was OP's fault, but this:

BloodWolfe wrote: »

...you can't exit a building once an NPC attacks you...

This is the flaw in the system. I don't understand why they decided to disable doors when you enter combat. What purpose does it serve? The only option at that point is to kill the NPC or die, unless the NPC is a guard, then your only choice is to die.

I've never personally experienced this issue, but I've never tried to leave a building while in combat. I got caught pickpocketing once, but the NPC didn't attack and I was able to leave. Can you enter buildings when you're running from the guards? You can enter the refuge, obviously, but I've never tried entering other buildings. I'm gonna have to test these things...

It's not just doors. While in combat mode you can't interact with anything. It's a programming trick to simplify the combat rules.

qsnoopyjr · May 2015

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

How is it logical or fair that you must kill an innocent civilian who has come at you?
Presuming I were a thief and were caught I would try to flee, unless defending myself were 100% necessary. I really wouldn't want to add on to the trouble I will have by hurting/ killing a civilian.
I'm more than willing to accept responsibilities IRL, but the point to being a thief (or a criminal in general) is not to face the consequences of your actions. Are we just going to through out RP in an RPGMMO? Especially with a series that has been a long-standing part of the RP community for decades?

You ever really pissed someone off and been in a fight?
Its hard to talk sense into people when they are in full rage.

Stealing a loaf of bread and that's there day supply of food, I too would become in full rage mode.

You don't think sense, until after the fact the other person is dead or whatever... Thing is, in real life its a lot harder to kill someone, takes too long and the rage goes away in time for sense to kick in. That is, if they're not using a gun or a weapon.

I wouldnt mind a rage meter,
you *** someone off, you have to survive 5 minutes of a beating. Only applys to non guard NPCs.

5 mins of being called "N'WAH" "YOU N'WAH" dunno if I could survive that!

Tandor · May 2015

c.p.garrett1993_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

How is it logical or fair that you must kill an innocent civilian who has come at you?

You don't have to. If you're made a mistake and been caught out over it then you can either kill the NPC or stand still and let him/her kill you. Death in the game is a minor inconvenience, more like a form of surrender in those circumstances.

The real point, however, is that the Justice System has been designed with the option to prevent accidental attacks on innocent NPCs, so if you don't enable that option and then hit an innocent NPC accidentally what follows can hardly be called a flaw in the system. Either disable the opportunity to hit someone accidentally or accept the consequences if you do so.

Divinius · May 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

If I steal a single loaf of bread, and someone sees me, yes, that is indeed my fault. And yes, I agree that I totally deserve the 10 gold bounty (or whatever it is) that I'd get for that.

Now... The crazy civilian (that saw me do it) isn't satisfied that he caused me a 10-gold bounty, so in addition, he flips out and tries to tear my face off. I'm inside a building, so as the system is now, I only have two choices:

1) Kill the guy that flipped out on me (in self-defense), and incur a significantly larger bounty for "murdering an innocent," since the game doesn't recognize kills made in self-defense to be any different from murdering an innocent in cold-blood.

2) Stand there like a dolt and wait for the guy to kill me, suffering expensive armor degradation, while still not clearing my original 10 gold bounty.

And yet people can sit there and argue that the system is not flawed? How is this not flawed?

Tandor · May 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

If I steal a single loaf of bread, and someone sees me, yes, that is indeed my fault. And yes, I agree that I totally deserve the 10 gold bounty (or whatever it is) that I'd get for that.

Now... The crazy civilian (that saw me do it) isn't satisfied that he caused me a 10-gold bounty, so in addition, he flips out and tries to tear my face off. I'm inside a building, so as the system is now, I only have two choices:

1) Kill the guy that flipped out on me (in self-defense), and incur a significantly larger bounty for "murdering an innocent," since the game doesn't recognize kills made in self-defense to be any different from murdering an innocent in cold-blood.

2) Stand there like a dolt and wait for the guy to kill me, suffering expensive armor degradation, while still not clearing my original 10 gold bounty.

And yet people can sit there and argue that the system is not flawed? How is this not flawed?

You stole something. your victim retaliated. You couldn't run because you were in a building. I call that a restriction imposed by the game, not a flaw. I imagine it would be difficult to code the game so you could get out of the building and the NPC could follow you. If you could commit a crime and then escape justice by getting out of the building with the NPC unable to follow you, then that would indeed be a flaw.

It sounds like you're simply complaining about the severity of the punishment if you're caught. You're ok with a bounty, but not with the victim turning on you as well. The answer as in real life is that if you don't want to do the time, don't commit the crime.

ShadowMage · May 2015

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

If I steal a single loaf of bread, and someone sees me, yes, that is indeed my fault. And yes, I agree that I totally deserve the 10 gold bounty (or whatever it is) that I'd get for that.

Now... The crazy civilian (that saw me do it) isn't satisfied that he caused me a 10-gold bounty, so in addition, he flips out and tries to tear my face off. I'm inside a building, so as the system is now, I only have two choices:

1) Kill the guy that flipped out on me (in self-defense), and incur a significantly larger bounty for "murdering an innocent," since the game doesn't recognize kills made in self-defense to be any different from murdering an innocent in cold-blood.

2) Stand there like a dolt and wait for the guy to kill me, suffering expensive armor degradation, while still not clearing my original 10 gold bounty.

And yet people can sit there and argue that the system is not flawed? How is this not flawed?

You stole something. your victim retaliated. You couldn't run because you were in a building. I call that a restriction imposed by the game, not a flaw. I imagine it would be difficult to code the game so you could get out of the building and the NPC could follow you.

Yes, it would be more difficult to have the NPC follow you, but not too difficult. Skyrim did it. The bigger issue is the fact that other players may need to interact with said NPC, which they couldn't do if that NPC was gallavanting across the country side chasing the thief who stole their last loaf of bread. So I understand why they don't have NPC's follow you out doors, but the fact that you can't leave the building is still a flaw.

Tandor wrote: »

If you could commit a crime and then escape justice by getting out of the building with the NPC unable to follow you, then that would indeed be a flaw.

Not if they would increase your bounty, or dramatically increase your heat level for "fleeing the scene". I'd be ok with that, as long as I could still leave the building and have a chance to get to the refuge.

qsnoopyjr · May 2015

Divinius wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Yes, the OP made a mistake, but the flaw is the game's lack of reasonable choices for how players can deal with those mistakes.

You mean get away with it if you're not spotted, and have a let-out option if you are?

A mistake was made, the price paid, and a lesson learned. Why do some people not want to accept any responsibility for their own actions and mistakes these days?

If I steal a single loaf of bread, and someone sees me, yes, that is indeed my fault. And yes, I agree that I totally deserve the 10 gold bounty (or whatever it is) that I'd get for that.

Now... The crazy civilian (that saw me do it) isn't satisfied that he caused me a 10-gold bounty, so in addition, he flips out and tries to tear my face off. I'm inside a building, so as the system is now, I only have two choices:

1) Kill the guy that flipped out on me (in self-defense), and incur a significantly larger bounty for "murdering an innocent," since the game doesn't recognize kills made in self-defense to be any different from murdering an innocent in cold-blood.

2) Stand there like a dolt and wait for the guy to kill me, suffering expensive armor degradation, while still not clearing my original 10 gold bounty.

And yet people can sit there and argue that the system is not flawed? How is this not flawed?

Ya the system is flawed your right.

Should be option 3
Guard rushes inside and does his guard report on you and collects your bounty or you can refuse the guard and get beat by him too.

Does it annoy anyone when the NPC says "the guards are on there way".... There aint no guard coming. Flawed system, your 100% right. There taxes don't include guard to come save them when someone steals there bread so they gotta do the old justice system. "Steal from me and see what happens", he's giving you a beatdown that's whats happening.

Some people claim you can still escape while indoors and use the door.
I think its by running around and getting into a spot they cant get you and sneak. Or using invis potion, cant remember how it worked because I never did it but some people claim they got away.

Samething could happen in real life, knock somebody down, go hide under the bed when they don't see you and eventually they'll stop searching for you... Highly doubt it though. Probably endless search.