First of all...
Biggest zergs (at least on Thorn) are on DC side now. Since DC believes 'there's SKILL in numbers'
and to be honest ALL factions in massive groups spam most efficient AoEs
It's pretty simple... you can't single target anything, you can't get close enough so you're using any AoE possible to at least scratch something and get that precious AP you want.
This IS stupid ...but well, that's the fun of massive PvP.
Personally I'm against that and ZOS could solve it in really easy way:
1. Make max size of the group as 20
2. AP NOT shared with other groups AT ALL, so when one group attacks keep and defenders groups won't overlap. This way people would split in more groups, co-ordinate them to attack from different sides or even completely different targets (at least in theory ...there will be always someone who will attack as blob bcs stupid things work too)
3. SCALE ABILITIES to PvP - this is most important! Make players deal less damage, less heals and make fights longer. 1on1 lasts 10-20 sec (even less than 10 with CP) and depends only on who's pushing harder. Skilled NB can kill in 3-5 shots. Now take that on bigger scale... that's exactly why big zergs wipe keeps in one minute and less.
I've been playing a lot of different MMO's but in ESO PvP fights are way too short.
Especially since everyone is using animation canceling (easy to fix really ...if you cancel animation = cancel attack = NO DAMAGE)
I know, it works to my advantage too ...but to be completely honest I'm getting bored of farming AP on short fights.
It's not about strategy at all, just take one massive kill train, move-stack-kill-move on-repeat
They need to seriously improve PvP concept to make it more interesting and way more challenging than it is right now.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yeah. PvP on EU is pretty much unplayable atm if you have any interest in running sub 16 ppl grp on primetime. Pretty much everybody i play(ed) with quit or is thinking about doing so.

Which means you have to wait until 1am to actually get some good small group/solo action going.

The rest of day you play matador against trains kiting, baiting and hoping that when they turn towards you... you can move out of the way faster than them. Which means you must be either a Sorc or NB because otherwise, you're meat.

^the reason I don't play any other chars than NB and Sorc atm. "It's a *** train GTFO!!!".

Seth_Black wrote: »

First of all...
Biggest zergs (at least on Thorn) are on DC side now. Since DC believes 'there's SKILL in numbers'
and to be honest ALL factions in massive groups spam most efficient AoEs
It's pretty simple... you can't single target anything, you can't get close enough so you're using any AoE possible to at least scratch something and get that precious AP you want.
This IS stupid ...but well, that's the fun of massive PvP.
Personally I'm against that and ZOS could solve it in really easy way:
1. Make max size of the group as 20
2. AP NOT shared with other groups AT ALL, so when one group attacks keep and defenders groups won't overlap. This way people would split in more groups, co-ordinate them to attack from different sides or even completely different targets (at least in theory ...there will be always someone who will attack as blob bcs stupid things work too)
3. SCALE ABILITIES to PvP - this is most important! Make players deal less damage, less heals and make fights longer. 1on1 lasts 10-20 sec (even less than 10 with CP) and depends only on who's pushing harder. Skilled NB can kill in 3-5 shots. Now take that on bigger scale... that's exactly why big zergs wipe keeps in one minute and less.
I've been playing a lot of different MMO's but in ESO PvP fights are way too short.
Especially since everyone is using animation canceling (easy to fix really ...if you cancel animation = cancel attack = NO DAMAGE)
I know, it works to my advantage too ...but to be completely honest I'm getting bored of farming AP on short fights.
It's not about strategy at all, just take one massive kill train, move-stack-kill-move on-repeat
They need to seriously improve PvP concept to make it more interesting and way more challenging than it is right now.

I don't give a crap which faction does what. They all make the game unplayable, and I'd happily friendly fire the DC doing it too if I could.

The obvious thing is that some of these people don't even want to run in the trains, but with all other options pretty much eliminated.. well, whaddayado if you want to continue playing.

I agree fights are way too short but I don't think your suggestions would work to solve this, healing/purge/etc is already way too effective and changes like that affect the stackspam groups and the smaller groups equally. Smaller groups need to have an advantage such as the better ult regen from 1.5 to make it a fair fight still.

Alcast wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Its the passives that make DW pretty decent. As soon as you are injured Tornado does 100% increased dmg and when you are lower than 25% HP it does another 20% increased dmg.

But, if that stuff gets nerfed bc of PvP I go nuts. Most things these days got nerfed bc some ppl started QQ in PvP. Just get some Heavy armor and that wont be an issue anymore.
Also, might help to not stand in a enemy 50 man grp lol

You have managed to miss the entire point of the thread.

Hint: It's not about steel tornado being nerfed.

Edit: pretty sure steel tornado works through lag when no other skills work even if I equip heavy armor. Or does heavy armor cure lag?

Last time i pvped and i stood in a 3 way Faction rampage my steeltornado didnt hit through anything. but then again, maybe it just feels that steeltornado hits more thorugh lag bc it has bigger range? I got no clue bc i dun pvp often bc da lag is unbarable..

Well, in a 5v20 steel tornado both causes 999+ ping and hits straight through it. Consistently all night neither my light attacks, skills or heals worked but I still died to steel tornado everywhere.

Want even more meta? Use 2 sharpened hammers and dump CP into wep pen. LOL

Joy_Division wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I guess. I can hardly be bothered with PvE anymore since I can only use my DK anyway bcuz 19K DPS or it's ***, hence the topic.

Well, well, well. It looks like you were wrong insisting in the dozens and dozens sorc threads how everything was fine and dandy. I don't suppose you would be such a gentleman and take back all of those derisions aimed at us for not knowing how to play, would you?

And before you strain a muscle patting yourself on the back for being "those of us with some understanding of game mechanics said when the update released," it needs to be said that the one topic you were most insistent about regarding 1.6 (sorc DPS) you were wrong and these "zergballs" that you despise were just as prevalent and effective in 1.5, a point you seem miss with videos and hashtags nostalgically longing for something that never existed.

Hahaha it's you. How you have waited, I presume.

You're right though, actually, that I was wrong in my prediction which I stated previously in this thread. However, as explained this is due to a set that no one used until a guildmate of mine tested it that has boosted the DKs fire damage through the roof (literally). Hence why I constantly said that the balance would change in the future meaning that it was pointless to argue at that time since the difference wasn't significant then. All classes have figured out builds capable of much, much more now - and now DKs are ridiculously overpowered - and all other classes are *** (sadly). This together with the fact that we now have figured out that the one and only thing that matters in the points system is DPS, means I was wrong.

I do however 100% stand by everything I said as it was true at the time.

And again, you are completely wrong about the zergs. Yes, they existed in 1.5 but were easy peasy to wipe with a skilled small group thanks to superior ultimate regeneration, unpurgeable oil catas and more.

Edit: Difference between Sorc and Lagnado > Lagpulse, is that this is a simple fact. More tooltip damage, triple radius and not affected by the bugged spell res. It is not affected by builds, gear, etc. It simply is better.

If you want to continue this discussion any further do it in PM and don't derail the thread.

Had some decent fights on Azura yesterday with the reds who aren't vigorlagnadoballing and some yellows.

But didn't make the slightest difference to the map. My group (4 people) were constantly calling in TS "Ash under siege, ales under attack, rayles etc." and I'm like .. *** it, guaranteed to be the yellow lagnado ball.. let them just have it. Meanwhile we were fighting at bleakers and the gates where we owned nothing just so we could at least have some pvp action..

So from now on take whatever you want - soon you'll be PvDing in prime time because there's no point.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Are you aware that every one of your changes to PvP since 1.6 has served to simply strengthen the people who stack and spam AOEs?
Are you aware that your game extremely heavily favours the largest possible groups?
Are you aware that the "unbalanced ultimate regen" of 1.5 was one of the only ways these large groups could be countered by smaller groups?
Are you aware that fire siege, magicka detonation, oil, meatbags and oil catapults are completely useless against large groups who have 20k+ shields from barriers and 4 people spamming purges?
Are you aware that average time to kill nowadays is nothing more than a few seconds, and that this is further driving people to hide in enormous groups?
Are you aware of the massive unbalance between Stamina and Magicka right now - where you can use traits to put your spell resistance massively above hardcap, use champion points to reduce both magic and elemental damage - where there are 0 such options for reducing physical damage?

And most importantly, are you going to actually do something about it or can I relay the message to all pvpers I know that are still hoping, that they might as well stop waiting and uninstall ESO already? I mean, as a leader of one of the largest EU guilds, honestly it sucks to see us lose such a massive amount of players every day - but I can't blame them and I will be following them soon enough if this continues.

I think all PvPers deserve a response to these questions. Thanks.

Sanct16 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Lagpulse: 6 M
Steel Lagnado: 12 M
Amount of time it took potatoes to realize 12 > 6: Priceless

I´d have given you awesome for Lag Tornado.

Soulac wrote: »

Yesterday on EU Mega server.. 50man raid spamming barrier and steel tornado, gg.
Even if you come through the barrier spam they still got like 10+ healing Templar or better said I completed my kill quest instantly after wiping them once.

PvP is totally *** up, at least on EU.. Huge Zergs, lag and people making use of both.. Proud of you ppl.

Yeah. PvP on EU is pretty much unplayable atm if you have any interest in running sub 16 ppl grp on primetime. Pretty much everybody i play(ed) with quit or is thinking about doing so.

Even with 16 it isn't enjoyable. we slightly increased our group size lately but when nothing works because of lag and you just die to 50man skilltrains you start asking yourself why even bother anymore.

Clearly ZOS has no interest fixing this even if they say otherwise. Wouldn't be surprised if they introduce another feature soon that makes it harder for small groups and forces everyone to run at least 24 man groups.

Yep, this is the biggest point exactly.

In 1.5 sure, a larger group had more potential to be effective if they were all good. They could hit multiple objectives, they were harder to kill off etc. but no matter what your group size was (even if you were solo) you could still at least make a dent in them and actually do something to hurt them and at minimum kill off a few.

In 1.6 you're pretty much screwed. All a small group can do against a large one is pretty much siege and hope a few dies before they purge and heal.. there's no point in trying to jump them because their healing and barriers is still 100x more effective than any damage you can do to them.

So it promotes the gameplay that causes the maximum amount of lag and the whole thing is unplayable. You either have to play zerging and lagging or just get used to dying without a fight every time a train comes near. To put it simply, PvP in this game sucks at the moment..

pppontus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler
Are you aware that every one of your changes to PvP since 1.6 has served to simply strengthen the people who stack and spam AOEs?
Are you aware that your game extremely heavily favours the largest possible groups?
Are you aware that the "unbalanced ultimate regen" of 1.5 was one of the only ways these large groups could be countered by smaller groups?
Are you aware that fire siege, magicka detonation, oil, meatbags and oil catapults are completely useless against large groups who have 20k+ shields from barriers and 4 people spamming purges?
Are you aware that average time to kill nowadays is nothing more than a few seconds, and that this is further driving people to hide in enormous groups?
Are you aware of the massive unbalance between Stamina and Magicka right now - where you can use traits to put your spell resistance massively above hardcap, use champion points to reduce both magic and elemental damage - where there are 0 such options for reducing physical damage?

Every word of this bears repeating.

ZOS, please don't think it's OK to take a three+ month break on addressing any of these issues. We get that you're excited about the Console release, but your current player base would be excited by you assigning some resources to the live version of the game.

Joy_Division wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

I guess. I can hardly be bothered with PvE anymore since I can only use my DK anyway bcuz 19K DPS or it's ***, hence the topic.

Well, well, well. It looks like you were wrong insisting in the dozens and dozens sorc threads how everything was fine and dandy. I don't suppose you would be such a gentleman and take back all of those derisions aimed at us for not knowing how to play, would you?

And before you strain a muscle patting yourself on the back for being "those of us with some understanding of game mechanics said when the update released," it needs to be said that the one topic you were most insistent about regarding 1.6 (sorc DPS) you were wrong and these "zergballs" that you despise were just as prevalent and effective in 1.5, a point you seem miss with videos and hashtags nostalgically longing for something that never existed.

Hahaha it's you. How you have waited, I presume.

You're right though, actually, that I was wrong in my prediction which I stated previously in this thread. However, as explained this is due to a set that no one used until a guildmate of mine tested it that has boosted the DKs fire damage through the roof (literally). Hence why I constantly said that the balance would change in the future meaning that it was pointless to argue at that time since the difference wasn't significant then. All classes have figured out builds capable of much, much more now - and now DKs are ridiculously overpowered - and all other classes are *** (sadly). This together with the fact that we now have figured out that the one and only thing that matters in the points system is DPS, means I was wrong.

I do however 100% stand by everything I said as it was true at the time.

And again, you are completely wrong about the zergs. Yes, they existed in 1.5 but were easy peasy to wipe with a skilled small group thanks to superior ultimate regeneration, unpurgeable oil catas and more.

Edit: Difference between Sorc and Lagnado > Lagpulse, is that this is a simple fact. More tooltip damage, triple radius and not affected by the bugged spell res. It is not affected by builds, gear, etc. It simply is better.

If you want to continue this discussion any further do it in PM and don't derail the thread.

Indeed I did wait <8.

And, I will give you credit for saying as much. Though I am not sure the Silks of the Sun set was a big secret.

What's actually funny is that we more or less agree that the game too much favors groups of 24 stacking on the same spot. Where we differ is that you believe this was somehow fundamentally different in 1.5. I suggest you do a search on "zergs" or "impulse spammers" or "batswarms" or the user "Columbo" from say June 2014 - December 2014 and you will realize that your recollections are largely nostalgia.

Not a secret perhaps, but it increased my DK DPS by 5K. Until my guildmate released his build with this set on TF a few weeks ago I didn't hear a single person outside our guild use this.

No, I know. It wasn't fundamentally different, but it was much, much easier to fight them then.

Because those 50 players are EP!

frozywozy wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

VagabondAngel wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I used to share my strategies but I won't do it anymore.... blah blah blah

Your sarcasm detector must be off. I am in one of the biggest PvP guilds of EP on the EU server and I am well aware of the strategies, skills, and gear that make good players and groups, thank you. My rhetorical sarcasm was intended to imply that your assertion that spamming one or two skills in a stacked group is not the reason for their effectiveness is, in fact, utter nonsense. Do you understand that or are you going to attempt to patronise me some more?

You are the one who asked me to explain which strategies I was reffering to and after I took the time to explain a lil bit more what my point was, you defend yourself stating that you are part of a big guild and that you already know all of that.

Make up your mind and stop wasting my time.

I'm still curious about these 50 other factors to successful zerging. All you really explained was that you can't just slot steel tornado in soul shriven robes and expect to win. So....what are the other 49 factors?

In my book, a zerg = 30players or more. Like I said plenty of times in my last posts, I run between 12-16players group during offhours and a full group during primetime. I also discourage people who stack 30-40men together and I will be the first to spread out some place else when I see too many EPs next to me.

Once we get along with the signification of zerging, we can talk about strategies used in organized groups.

Good day.

Seen you make this comment before. However, when people are complaining about zergs they aren't talking about the 50 undisciplined players running en masse. Those are easy enough to kill. What they really hate are the 15 to 24 man group at the core that is healing, purging, steel tornadoing and meteoring through everything, including tower siege. Those are the groups farming keeps and towers. They are always a problem because they lock groups of people into trying to kill them while the rest of the map is lost.

We need a separate term for this type of thing as people always conflate this type of group with a fifty man force just running to an objective.

pppontus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Its the passives that make DW pretty decent. As soon as you are injured Tornado does 100% increased dmg and when you are lower than 25% HP it does another 20% increased dmg.

But, if that stuff gets nerfed bc of PvP I go nuts. Most things these days got nerfed bc some ppl started QQ in PvP. Just get some Heavy armor and that wont be an issue anymore.
Also, might help to not stand in a enemy 50 man grp lol

You have managed to miss the entire point of the thread.

Hint: It's not about steel tornado being nerfed.

Edit: pretty sure steel tornado works through lag when no other skills work even if I equip heavy armor. Or does heavy armor cure lag?

Last time i pvped and i stood in a 3 way Faction rampage my steeltornado didnt hit through anything. but then again, maybe it just feels that steeltornado hits more thorugh lag bc it has bigger range? I got no clue bc i dun pvp often bc da lag is unbarable..

Well, in a 5v20 steel tornado both causes 999+ ping and hits straight through it. Consistently all night neither my light attacks, skills or heals worked but I still died to steel tornado everywhere.

THough kinda strange, I mean dmg is calculated the same way Impulse is i guess? Or do other physical attacks like Bombard also hit through lag?

Alcast wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Its the passives that make DW pretty decent. As soon as you are injured Tornado does 100% increased dmg and when you are lower than 25% HP it does another 20% increased dmg.

But, if that stuff gets nerfed bc of PvP I go nuts. Most things these days got nerfed bc some ppl started QQ in PvP. Just get some Heavy armor and that wont be an issue anymore.
Also, might help to not stand in a enemy 50 man grp lol

You have managed to miss the entire point of the thread.

Hint: It's not about steel tornado being nerfed.

Edit: pretty sure steel tornado works through lag when no other skills work even if I equip heavy armor. Or does heavy armor cure lag?

Last time i pvped and i stood in a 3 way Faction rampage my steeltornado didnt hit through anything. but then again, maybe it just feels that steeltornado hits more thorugh lag bc it has bigger range? I got no clue bc i dun pvp often bc da lag is unbarable..

Well, in a 5v20 steel tornado both causes 999+ ping and hits straight through it. Consistently all night neither my light attacks, skills or heals worked but I still died to steel tornado everywhere.

THough kinda strange, I mean dmg is calculated the same way Impulse is i guess? Or do other physical attacks like Bombard also hit through lag?

I don't really know, I just know it definitely happens. Maybe it takes more processing to calculate because of the bigger radius and for some reason gets prioritized higher in the calculations because of that? It's not really much that makes sense with the lag, in 1.5 it used to be possible to spam volatile armor for damage which would go through lag for some silly reason. So flags would be filled with DKs spamming volatile even though it was kinda useless because it did like 300 damage >_<

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

no... Reduce all player sourced AOE damage by 50% in PvP..

leave steel Tornado ALONE and ffs put impulse back..

Wait, what?