PvP At The Tipping Point

Oughash · May 2015

Disclaimer: I love ESO PvP. The Cyrodiil zone is amazing. I still remember with fondness the first time I stepped onto the map as a level 10. I love the large-scale engagements. I think that keep fights are fun and strategic. I like running into (fighting) people out in the world when roaming. I enjoy tight, tactical group play. The combat style is an excellent mix of MMO with action/reactive play. The towns and clutter are really neat. I want to fight there more often!!

TLDR: The core issues which plague ESO PvP have yet to be addressed. There is another couple of months before we expect any large patches or content updates; predict that large swaths of the PvP community will leave. No updates or information from ZoS through the spring (since 1.6) has strengthened this view.

Patch 1.6 has been out for approximately seven weeks. The PvP meta has mostly -- albeit not entirely -- shaken out. ZOS has stated that they are hard at work on the console launch which is scheduled for June, six weeks from now.

I have compiled my list of issues for Cyrodiil PvP which I believe threaten continued fair/fun play. I make only a few statements about how to address them. In general, these statements are simply to ask ZOS to respond.

1. Performance. Always the first and foremost. Fix this and the rest will solve themselves. It has been worse since 1.6 dropped. ZOS statements have only included "spread out," which is simply hilarious given the way the game was advertised and how the map is constructed. The players have suggested hundreds of things to help address server performance. The PvP playerbase needs to see some work being done on this. For example, I will gladly pull a group together and go spam healing springs and impulse on the PTS if ZOS were willing to try some changes or updates. An anecdote from last night: Chillrend NA, approx. 2000 EST: The EP zerg (40+) heads to bleakers to fight the DC zerg (40+). Except that an AD zerg (40+) showed up. The server immediately lagged out. Thankfully, a good portion of the EP zerg backed off to save a catastrophic crash. Regardless, half my group crashed. The other half quit for another server in disgust.
1.5. Vision. What is Crodiil PvP? Where is it headed? Do y'all play with any of the competitive guilds? Any future balance changes in the works? New gameplay modes?
2. Imperial City. Where is it? Why are we still waiting? ETA? Preview video? Anything?
3. Population Balance. The ESO PvP population is NOT evenly distributed between EP/DC/AD. It is not fun to fight when you outnumber the enemy. It is also not fun to fight when hugely outnumbered.
4. Unbalanced scaling since 1.6. Removal of the softcaps have had a detrimental impact on gameplay because the skill scaling wasn't thoroughly tested. Too many examples to list here. Itemization is also part of this problem. A pretty large sweep of balance changes need to be made. Nobody enjoys one-shot, one-kill gameplay -- otherwise we would be playing counterstrike. On the other hand, nobody enjoys unkillable tanks.
5. Nirnhoned. This is part of (4). It is also a can of worms. Regardless, it is a huge issue. Needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
6. Bugs and Inconsistency in the CC Mechanics. These are rage-inducing. Any skill which cause loss of control of your character needs to be carefully analyzed. Examples include Fear, Petrify, Invasion, Chains, Biting Jabs, &c -- all of which act differently. Why? What should they do? Need some statements so that they can be tested to provide better feedback.
7. Hidden Calculations and Incomplete API. All calculations are hidden from the player. The API doesn't provide enough information to effectively manage DoTs, HoTs, debuffs. I know the ZOS statements. Y'all are wrong. Players desire and need this information. It helps improve gameplay. AND it helps test for bugs.
8. Inconsistent Itemization. Armor traits. Ridiculous RNG (dungeons, PvP rewards, VDSA). Bind-on-pickup. Boring sets.

Discuss. Please keep it constructive.

Additions:
9. Ultimate Gain. The static ultimate gain system of 1.6 favors zerg/group play heavily. Please revert to a dynamic, skill-based system which rewards good play so that smaller groups have a chance of breaking up larger groups.

Ghostbane · May 2015

An anecdote from last night: Chillrend NA, approx. 2000 EST: The EP zerg (40+) heads to bleakers to fight the DC zerg (40+). Except that an AD zerg (40+) showed up. The server immediately lagged out.

Would like to note, myself and my raid where at Alessia at this time, and every single one of us crashed. Fair bit of distance between Bleakers/Alessia, so it has nothing to do with proximity. The crashing happened repeatedly for 15 minutes ( on occasion the usual <1> login error codes, nice )

May not be PVP related, but helpful error messages are helpful.

Rook_Master · May 2015

Good List.

Lots of these problems are more nebulous, but nirnhoned is something they can fix TODAY.

Darlgon · May 2015

No.. not really. But I am getting the feeling a lot of players are getting bored with so much lack of balance.

kevlarto_ESO · May 2015

I agree with you for the most part, Imperial City is on it's way, along with a lot of other things, but until consoles get releases nothing is going to happen in the game for pc players, we are on hold, I do not agree with how they handled the pc player base, but it is what it is, I have heard them say in the next big update, which has been confirmed after console release, I will be glad to see things get back on track and they start working on that list op.

Etaniel · May 2015

Ultimate gain. While I will agree it was unbalanced during 1.5, the new ulimate regeneration system is flawed. It needs to be brought back to a dynamic system, that rewards the player for skilled play. Currently, one player standing behind a tree sending one light attack every 8 seconds will get the exact same amount of ulimate as a player who is fighting off 3 opponents at the same time, making use of roll dodge, block, cc and actively using skills. It makes no sense.

The other important point for me is one you mentionned already, the scaling in 1.6.
Currently my lvl 43 stam nightblade that is wearing green items, no jewelry, is getting crits for 12k on other players without being in stealth using a 2 handed sword. Completely ridiculous. Time to kill is way to short, and forces people to run in groups at all times in fear of being oneshot at every corner in Cyrodil.

prose08b14a_ESO · May 2015

I am just tired of consistently feeling like the only way to play for my faction is to play PVDoor while the only way to have fun is to do small scale PVP gank groups... which is the exact OPPOSITE of what I bought this game for, seeing as it was advertised for 100+ RvRvR battles that this game can't support.

Ifthir_ESO · May 2015

1. Performance. Only had issues once since the newest update and that was an Emp dethrone.

1.5. Vision. Agree that I would love to hear the team's thoughts on this
2. Imperial City. 99% sure this is the first release post-console. I expect August or early September
3. Population Balance. People want to win. I'd like to see the populations done by alliance rank rather than raw numbers
4. Unbalanced scaling since 1.6. Balance is to me should now be priority #1 given that I've had limited lag issues of late.
5. Nirnhoned. I don't see this as that big of a problem. I also play a magicka NB still
6. Bugs and Inconsistency in the CC Mechanics. QA dude, where is ZoS QA.
7. Hidden Calculations and Incomplete API. Don't see this changing at all.
8. Inconsistent Itemization. Totally agree, been very disappointed with team itemization.

kkravaritieb17_ESO · May 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

Ultimate gain. While I will agree it was unbalanced during 1.5, the new ulimate regeneration system is flawed. It needs to be brought back to a dynamic system, that rewards the player for skilled play. Currently, one player standing behind a tree sending one light attack every 8 seconds will get the exact same amount of ulimate as a player who is fighting off 3 opponents at the same time, making use of roll dodge, block, cc and actively using skills. It makes no sense.

The other important point for me is one you mentionned already, the scaling in 1.6.
Currently my lvl 43 stam nightblade that is wearing green items, no jewelry, is getting crits for 12k on other players without being in stealth using a 2 handed sword. Completely ridiculous. Time to kill is way to short, and forces people to run in groups at all times in fear of being oneshot at every corner in Cyrodil.

Couldnt agree more.

SoulScream · May 2015

I've been surprised people still even play it. I just can't do it anymore! For me weapon swap is so lagged across the whole map from zergs it is not fun to play. At least in the past I could move to a less laggy part of the map. PVP is in the worst place for me now and I've played since beta. I don't see anything changing soon so I rarely play and have found a different game to play that is not run by chimps.

Oughash · May 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

Good List.

Lots of these problems are more nebulous, but nirnhoned is something they can fix TODAY.

Agreed on both. The nebulous problems are tougher -- but it would go a long way if ZOS would simply interact with us on them.

Ghostbane wrote: »

Would like to note, myself and my raid where at Alessia at this time, and every single one of us crashed. Fair bit of distance between Bleakers/Alessia, so it has nothing to do with proximity. The crashing happened repeatedly for 15 minutes ( on occasion the usual <1> login error codes, nice )

Didn't know that, thanks.

Darlgon wrote: »

No.. not really. But I am getting the feeling a lot of players are getting bored with so much lack of balance.

Balance is a key concern, which is why I listed it. Agreed that boredom is a symptom of balance... and many other issues.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I agree with you for the most part, Imperial City is on it's way, along with a lot of other things, but until consoles get releases nothing is going to happen in the game for pc players, we are on hold, I do not agree with how they handled the pc player base, but it is what it is, I have heard them say in the next big update, which has been confirmed after console release, I will be glad to see things get back on track and they start working on that list op.

I understand this completely. Problem is "back on track" is months away. PvP activity was really high in the aftermath of 1.6. ZOS could have capitalized on that by, say, releasing Imperial City.

Etaniel wrote: »

Ultimate gain. While I will agree it was unbalanced during 1.5, the new ulimate regeneration system is flawed. It needs to be brought back to a dynamic system, that rewards the player for skilled play.

I completely forgot this one! Thanks for reminding me. Will add to OP.

Etaniel wrote: »

Time to kill is way to short, and forces people to run in groups at all times in fear of being oneshot at every corner in Cyrodil.

Agreed completely.

prose08b14a_ESO wrote: »

I am just tired of consistently feeling like the only way to play for my faction is to play PVDoor while the only way to have fun is to do small scale PVP gank groups... which is the exact OPPOSITE of what I bought this game for, seeing as it was advertised for 100+ RvRvR battles that this game can't support.

Totally agree. Suggestions on how to address? More objectives?

SoulScream · May 2015

There have been a million and one threads with great suggestions, none are going to happen.

Edit, I think this is the third thread of this nature this week and it's only Tuesday.

Joy_Division · May 2015

I'll add a few to the OP's list:

ZoS please give us legitimate tools and counter-play against the 24 members of Havoc's raid who stack on the same spot. For starters, completely remove the damage AoE caps and rework the magicka detronation skill (biggest problems are excessively long cast time - often intended target moves out of range - and it's failure to scale in effectiveness the more targets it hits).
ZoS please look at Backwater Blade and observe your game functioning as intended. We don't insta-die there the moment we are CCed.
Unlimited resource regeneration. The last time I had to heavy attack to restore magicka was 1.5. And I am wearing zero gear dedicated to magicka recovery. I remember at launch my soft cap for magicka was around 80.
I am amazed how we ALL say this and nothing, not even a preview, comes from ZoS: make Cyrodiil more dynamic with more meaningful objectives.

jpalm1995 · May 2015

And add instance based PvP

Oughash · May 2015

All -- thanks for your comments!

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZoS please look at Backwater Blade and observe your game functioning as intended. We don't insta-die there the moment we are CCed.

Agreed. The BB campaign, to my chagrin, has stolen heaps of my top players. ZoS: please use this as a case study.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll add a few to the OP's list:
ZoS please give us legitimate tools and counter-play against the 24 members of Havoc's raid who stack on the same spot. For starters, completely remove the damage AoE caps and rework the magicka detronation skill (biggest problems are excessively long cast time - often intended target moves out of range - and it's failure to scale in effectiveness the more targets it hits).

Unlimited resource regeneration. The last time I had to heavy attack to restore magicka was 1.5. And I am wearing zero gear dedicated to magicka recovery. I remember at launch my soft cap for magicka was around 80.

I think these are two sides of the same coin: improper balancing and scaling since 1.6. Agreed.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I am amazed how we ALL say this and nothing, not even a preview, comes from ZoS: make Cyrodiil more dynamic with more meaningful objectives.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Please can you make some comments? The list we've compiled here are all issues which have been brought up in thread after thread.

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

That BWB is considered more fun and more balanced than end game PVP on the big servers should be seen by the PVP and Class Balance teams as a failure on their part to balance the game and provide sufficient fun.

krim · May 2015

keep it up.. people are waking up.

Soris · May 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

Disclaimer: I love ESO PvP. The Cyrodiil zone is amazing. I still remember with fondness the first time I stepped onto the map as a level 10. I love the large-scale engagements. I think that keep fights are fun and strategic. I like running into (fighting) people out in the world when roaming. I enjoy tight, tactical group play. The combat style is an excellent mix of MMO with action/reactive play. The towns and clutter are really neat. I want to fight there more often!!

TLDR: The core issues which plague ESO PvP have yet to be addressed. There is another couple of months before we expect any large patches or content updates; predict that large swaths of the PvP community will leave. No updates or information from ZoS through the spring (since 1.6) has strengthened this view.

Patch 1.6 has been out for approximately seven weeks. The PvP meta has mostly -- albeit not entirely -- shaken out. ZOS has stated that they are hard at work on the console launch which is scheduled for June, six weeks from now.

I have compiled my list of issues for Cyrodiil PvP which I believe threaten continued fair/fun play. I make only a few statements about how to address them. In general, these statements are simply to ask ZOS to respond.

1. Performance. Always the first and foremost. Fix this and the rest will solve themselves. It has been worse since 1.6 dropped. ZOS statements have only included "spread out," which is simply hilarious given the way the game was advertised and how the map is constructed. The players have suggested hundreds of things to help address server performance. The PvP playerbase needs to see some work being done on this. For example, I will gladly pull a group together and go spam healing springs and impulse on the PTS if ZOS were willing to try some changes or updates. An anecdote from last night: Chillrend NA, approx. 2000 EST: The EP zerg (40+) heads to bleakers to fight the DC zerg (40+). Except that an AD zerg (40+) showed up. The server immediately lagged out. Thankfully, a good portion of the EP zerg backed off to save a catastrophic crash. Regardless, half my group crashed. The other half quit for another server in disgust.
1.5. Vision. What is Crodiil PvP? Where is it headed? Do y'all play with any of the competitive guilds? Any future balance changes in the works? New gameplay modes?
2. Imperial City. Where is it? Why are we still waiting? ETA? Preview video? Anything?
3. Population Balance. The ESO PvP population is NOT evenly distributed between EP/DC/AD. It is not fun to fight when you outnumber the enemy. It is also not fun to fight when hugely outnumbered.
4. Unbalanced scaling since 1.6. Removal of the softcaps have had a detrimental impact on gameplay because the skill scaling wasn't thoroughly tested. Too many examples to list here. Itemization is also part of this problem. A pretty large sweep of balance changes need to be made. Nobody enjoys one-shot, one-kill gameplay -- otherwise we would be playing counterstrike. On the other hand, nobody enjoys unkillable tanks.
5. Nirnhoned. This is part of (4). It is also a can of worms. Regardless, it is a huge issue. Needs to be addressed as soon as possible.
6. Bugs and Inconsistency in the CC Mechanics. These are rage-inducing. Any skill which cause loss of control of your character needs to be carefully analyzed. Examples include Fear, Petrify, Invasion, Chains, Biting Jabs, &c -- all of which act differently. Why? What should they do? Need some statements so that they can be tested to provide better feedback.
7. Hidden Calculations and Incomplete API. All calculations are hidden from the player. The API doesn't provide enough information to effectively manage DoTs, HoTs, debuffs. I know the ZOS statements. Y'all are wrong. Players desire and need this information. It helps improve gameplay. AND it helps test for bugs.
8. Inconsistent Itemization. Armor traits. Ridiculous RNG (dungeons, PvP rewards, VDSA). Bind-on-pickup. Boring sets.

Discuss. Please keep it constructive.

Additions:
9. Ultimate Gain. The static ultimate gain system of 1.6 favors zerg/group play heavily. Please revert to a dynamic, skill-based system which rewards good play so that smaller groups have a chance of breaking up larger groups.

Words into the void..

sadownik · May 2015

For me the massive PvP is what interested me in ESO. Not hundrets of repetititve quests, *** easy solo PvE, Even not group dungeons - although they are fun.

But the state of PvP right now is really not good. Servers locked and still only 1 battle symbol on map? 2 full raid groups at most? Getting killed because i am just a poor vr1 in a second if that? Continious unresponsiveness that sometimes turns to unplayable lag?

I really have less and less fun in EU pvp right now, and that means 1 month after returning to game i log in to "feed the horses" try pvp for 10 min, try to find group for dungeon (quite often i dont find one in rational period of time), and i log off. How long till i stop to log in at all? Well i would say pretty soon.

Draxys · May 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

1. Performance

#revertthelightingpatch2015

Agrippa_Invisus · May 2015

Draxys wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

1. Performance

#revertthelightingpatch2015

TBH, I don't think they know how.

The only way I think they could at this point would be to pull the 1.2 version of code back up, and that would be a nightmare logistically.

Kelleton · May 2015

I don't care about pop balance, the most fun ive ever had in PVP is when I solo hold a keep against a group of attackers or in a small group against overwhelming odds.

even fights are boring and never give you that adrenaline rush

Oughash · May 2015

Draxys wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

1. Performance

#revertthelightingpatch2015

Word. Problem is thus: its not provable.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

TBH, I don't think they know how.

The only way I think they could at this point would be to pull the 1.2 version of code back up, and that would be a nightmare logistically.

Cynical. Maybe correct. Most good software design disconnected core systems so that they can be independently modified, e.g. graphics and gameplay.

skarvika · May 2015

Darlgon wrote: »

No.. not really. But I am getting the feeling a lot of players are getting bored with so much lack of balance.

I definitely have. Uninstalled ESO yesterday. Will come back when the general consensus is that all classes/factions are at least somewhat balanced and vet levels are gone.

Davenaro · May 2015

The ulti change never really made sense to me. I really hope they consider changing it back but i highly doubt it.

jnjdun_ESO · May 2015

7. Hidden Calculations and Incomplete API.

This is what p*sses me off the most. This is 2015 for **** sake.
We should be seeing exactly who hit us, with what ability and for how much.

Why the mystery, ZOS?

I truly believe so many bugs, exploits (and abilities just not working the way they should) could have been made public and then fixed in a timely manner. Instead we have a-holes spending their days testing different gear and abilities trying to find the most broken and exploitable things they can and then running with it for months on end.

It's mind boggling and my husband has already rage quit due to it and unfortunately I'm probably not far behind him. I love this game I really do, but damn this sh*t needs fixing.

Oughash · May 2015

jnjdun_ESO wrote: »

7. Hidden Calculations and Incomplete API.

This is what p*sses me off the most. This is 2015 for **** sake.
We should be seeing exactly who hit us, with what ability and for how much.

Why the mystery, ZOS?

I truly believe so many bugs, exploits (and abilities just not working the way they should) could have been made public and then fixed in a timely manner. Instead we have a-holes spending their days testing different gear and abilities trying to find the most broken and exploitable things they can and then running with it for months on end.

It's mind boggling and my husband has already rage quit due to it and unfortunately I'm probably not far behind him. I love this game I really do, but damn this sh*t needs fixing.

They actually told us why: that they think all of the numbers confuse people. Not even kidding. The beta API provided all of the information we asked for, i.e. FTC was accurate. I remember the sh*tstorm when they announced they were blocking all of the DoTs, HoTs, debuffs, etc. Atropos from TF (since he wrote FTC) was one of the biggest vocal opponents of API feature reversion.

jnjdun_ESO · May 2015

Ishammael wrote: »

jnjdun_ESO wrote: »

7. Hidden Calculations and Incomplete API.

This is what p*sses me off the most. This is 2015 for **** sake.
We should be seeing exactly who hit us, with what ability and for how much.

Why the mystery, ZOS?

I truly believe so many bugs, exploits (and abilities just not working the way they should) could have been made public and then fixed in a timely manner. Instead we have a-holes spending their days testing different gear and abilities trying to find the most broken and exploitable things they can and then running with it for months on end.

It's mind boggling and my husband has already rage quit due to it and unfortunately I'm probably not far behind him. I love this game I really do, but damn this sh*t needs fixing.

They actually told us why: that they think all of the numbers confuse people. Not even kidding. The beta API provided all of the information we asked for, i.e. FTC was accurate. I remember the sh*tstorm when they announced they were blocking all of the DoTs, HoTs, debuffs, etc. Atropos from TF (since he wrote FTC) was one of the biggest vocal opponents of API feature reversion.

Numbers confuse people? That’s the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. ZOS needs to pull their head out of their collective rear ends and realize that we need this. It's just basic functionality in any game.

Whoever made this decision needs a swift kick in their junk.

PeggymoeXD · May 2015

I have been in PvP since launch back in the Chrysamere days. My EP guild and another DC guild formed a rivalry and since Chyrsamere was low pop, it was really just my guild vs theirs. Even though at the time mercenaries and guesting was an enormous problem, we developed strategies for everything from simply taking a keep with a small group of low level characters, to even exploiting mechanics that, rather than just being fixed, were just removed from the game. Because that's how we all know ZOS handles the majority of this game's issues. Oh its broke?! Delete.

I want to continue playing this game. I would hate to have all the time I've spent playing and money I've spent being subbed to be so I could eventually leave because I continue to be let down so often by this company. But I feel unless something changes soon, I will become burnt out and find another game. And there are plenty of other games I could be playing right now. I agree with OP. My guild and I would certainly contribute in any way possible to help test mechanics and what causes lag if it means issues finally being addressed and possibly improved.

TheBucket · May 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

Ultimate gain. While I will agree it was unbalanced during 1.5, the new ulimate regeneration system is flawed. It needs to be brought back to a dynamic system, that rewards the player for skilled play. Currently, one player standing behind a tree sending one light attack every 8 seconds will get the exact same amount of ulimate as a player who is fighting off 3 opponents at the same time, making use of roll dodge, block, cc and actively using skills. It makes no sense.

The other important point for me is one you mentionned already, the scaling in 1.6.
Currently my lvl 43 stam nightblade that is wearing green items, no jewelry, is getting crits for 12k on other players without being in stealth using a 2 handed sword. Completely ridiculous. Time to kill is way to short, and forces people to run in groups at all times in fear of being oneshot at every corner in Cyrodil.

Thats not true

Although the ultimate gains does favor large groups

kijima · May 2015

You do realize your TL;DR version was longer right?