How to balance racial passives, while still keeping race choice unique!

Kerioko · May 2015

As the title states, my idea for a simple way to balance racial passives while still having each race unique:

1st 3 passives chosen at character select, with in-game shrine that allows spending gold to reset these 3 choices!

- 1st racial passive: Weapon/Armor Proficiency: gives 15% training bonus to your choice of a weapon or armor type

- 2nd Racial Passive: Regen Expert: gives 5/10/15% bonus to your choice of regen (magicka, health, or stamina)

- 3rd Racial Passive: Stat Proficiency: gives 3/7/10% bonus to your choice of stat (magicka, health, or stamina)

-4th Racial Passive: Race Specific Passive: a special passive unique to each race!

Breton: 4% spell cost reduction and 10% spell resistance
Orc: 15% speed increase and 10% charge dmg boost
Redguard: 15% chance to return stamina on melee attack
Altmer: 10% boost to elemental damage
Bosmer: 10% stealth damage and 10% reduced sneak cost
Khajiit: 6% weapon crit and 10% stealth damage
Nord: 6% damage reduction from all sources with additional 15% frost resist
Argonian: 6% healing (both outgoing and incoming) and 10% boost to potions
Dunmer: 10% fire damage and 10% fire resistance
Imperial: 15% chance to return health on melee attack

This would give you the ability to play any class the way you won't while still providing the individuality of races!

C0pp3rhead · May 2015

This seems like a reasonable proposal. The +10% potion effect for Argonians seems a little OP, especially if worked into a potion build. The Dunmer and Nord resists are too weak, and Argonians have always had disease & poison resistances. The Orc passive is very niche, and I think a more general buff like +wpn power or +armor penetration would be more in line with their lore.

Archer79 · May 2015

This actually sounds really good, and very reasonable. That will make gameplay even better as players will be as creative as they want with their builds, while playing the race they like, and not just for min/maxing. Good job man.

Kerioko · May 2015

So, a little more balance:

Orc: 15% speed boost, 10% armor penetration
Dunmer: 15% fire dmg, 15% fire resist
Argonian: 10% healing(incoming, outgoing), 15% poison, disease resist
Nord: 10% damage reduction, and Frostbite(10% chance to slow targets when hit)

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2015

There are a few problems with these choices both in terms of theme and of statistics.

*Disease/Poison resistance are pretty fundamental to the nature of Argonian & Bosmer racial traits, moreso than a healing passive or a stealthy passive. Swim speed also should probably be taken into account on the Argonian, even if its a pretty worthless trait.

*Nords aren't good at doing more frost damage, they're good at taking frost damage. In Morrowind they were Immune to frost, and nearly immune to lightning damage. This was toned down over time through Oblivion and Skyrim.

*The Redguard and Imperial unique racials look pretty terrible, when compared to the ones you've listed. It might make more sense to give them a Weapon damage based enhancement, to keep them on par with what you've given to the Altmer and Dunmer (in the realm of magic).

*Altmer and Dunmer look really strong, and I suspect they would far outshine the Breton in this description.

*Orc seems decent with the armor penetration there.

Overall though I think this is an interesting idea but it would need greater refinement. Just by looking at what was written, it seems all of the humans (Redgards, Nords, Imperials, Bretons) will be the weakest races if they were to actually put this into the game.

C0pp3rhead · May 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Overall though I think this is an interesting idea but it would need greater refinement. Just by looking at what was written, it seems all of the humans (Redgards, Nords, Imperials, Bretons) will be the weakest races if they were to actually put this into the game.

Not at all. Redguards & Imperials have traditionally (in previous titles) been more suited for warrior or soldier roles. The returns on health & stam are actually pretty awesome. Because you have to light attack to build ultimate (& because most players light attack weave), the Redguard stamina return is very useful. The Imperial return on health makes them slight more survivable in all situations, but also makes them excellent tanks. Alot of bosses, mobs, and players (NB's, Sorcs, & Temps) rely on magicka & elemental damage, so the Breton spell resist is actually quite useful, especially with +10%. Nords with pure damage mitigation make for some of the best tanks in the game.

Honestly, because resistances to Fire, Frost, Poison, and Disease are so specific, they could be as high as 20% or 25% without affecting overall game balance

Junkogen · May 2015

I love how imperials all of a sudden got awesome passives when in Skyrim they had calming and luck. It's ridiculous how we have to keep to some passives but people are okay with drastic departures from others.

TheShadowScout · May 2015

Terrible idea.

Oh, the min/maxer crowd will like it, more choices to effectify their builds... but allowing people to cherry pick their bonus of choice pretty much throws most of the racial diversity out of the window, since all the boni will be chosen per class/built, and race won't matter much anymore.

Personally I much prefer the current system, even with all its faults.

Bodycounter · May 2015

Everyone would pick the same, if it's about min/maxing. You could delete racials, if you make them a choice. The current racials could need a little overhaul, but that's it.

Salganis · May 2015

i am a imperial templar and i find bad not to have buff of magic.

Rair.Kitani · May 2015

OP has made a very well thought out thread, you got an awesome!
Of course one could argue about the 4th racial, how to adjust them in this or that way. But all propsals respect the talents of the races by lore. they add a noticable flavor, but don't make or break a build like it is now.

Bodycounter wrote: »

Everyone would pick the same, if it's about min/maxing. You could delete racials, if you make them a choice. The current racials could need a little overhaul, but that's it.

No, not everyone would pick the same, but most people will choose the passives according to the role they want to fulfill. This isn't min/maxing, this is common sense.
But when a new player arrives and is for example told "to be viable as stamina dps, roll imperial or redguard" i do not only find this very limiting and immersion breaking but also a good example how you're forced to min/max if you don't wan't to have a huge disadvantage.

Salganis · May 2015

Some people are more skilled in certain aspects and less on others.
I think you should be eligible in the game change small percentages of base skilled example: 12% health imperial give me the option to make it at the start of the game as: health 9% and 3% at magic.
that concept apply to all races. I mean do not change the racial skills only allow sutracciones and addictions of their basics.
And improve race that were bad as that of the Argonians and Nordic.

i find this a perfect solution!!!

TheSunAlsoRises · May 2015

give my argonian more swim speed, please.

Atreust · May 2015

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Terrible idea.

Oh, the min/maxer crowd will like it, more choices to effectify their builds... but allowing people to cherry pick their bonus of choice pretty much throws most of the racial diversity out of the window, since all the boni will be chosen per class/built, and race won't matter much anymore.

Personally I much prefer the current system, even with all its faults.

I think it's a great idea, given some refinement. Min/maxers already have once obvious choice per build type. If race changes were allowed, 90% of people would be Imperials after the implementation of 2.0. This system would allow the game to keep racial diversity. People want to play as a certain race, but why cripple yourself as an Argonian (for example) with useless passives? The current system has too many weak racial passives that either need to be fixed or replaced with a system outlined in the original post. Thanks for your idea Kerioko.

Thourton · May 2015

I really like a racial re-balance along these lines. On a recent "Timeout from Tamriel," Sigtric suggested a similar idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHW3BCod86E. Your post, though, fleshes out actual specifics. Great work!

The challenge, of course, is whatever that unique racial passive is -- making sure it's not overwhelmingly powerful or weak or too niche. However, a system like this that provides customizable, general passives (main stat bonuses) would help level out the playing field between races.

RazzPitazz · May 2015

Its a better idea than the current system. Because of the racial passives we have now, certain classes (at full potential) are gated to certain factions, assuming most people do or will play without imperial or explorer editions, being faction locked which I feel is a bigger problem than racial diversity.

dodgehopper_ESO · May 2015

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Overall though I think this is an interesting idea but it would need greater refinement. Just by looking at what was written, it seems all of the humans (Redgards, Nords, Imperials, Bretons) will be the weakest races if they were to actually put this into the game.

Not at all. Redguards & Imperials have traditionally (in previous titles) been more suited for warrior or soldier roles. The returns on health & stam are actually pretty awesome. Because you have to light attack to build ultimate (& because most players light attack weave), the Redguard stamina return is very useful. The Imperial return on health makes them slight more survivable in all situations, but also makes them excellent tanks. Alot of bosses, mobs, and players (NB's, Sorcs, & Temps) rely on magicka & elemental damage, so the Breton spell resist is actually quite useful, especially with +10%. Nords with pure damage mitigation make for some of the best tanks in the game.

Honestly, because resistances to Fire, Frost, Poison, and Disease are so specific, they could be as high as 20% or 25% without affecting overall game balance

I disagree, though I do feel that the resistance numbers as they were changed in the new system (Tamriel Unlimited) have changed the efficacy of those racial resistances. I personally do not feel a 15% chance to get a meager health or stamina return is worth it. Current Bosmer Stamina Regen far outshines any sort of returns a Redguard will receive from his adrenaline rush currently. The balance between them now, is that a Bosmer also gets poison/disease resistance (Something the Redguard should have by the way, thematically) and Stealthy. My point is simply that you're suggesting Altmer should get a blanket damage bonus to all magicka attacks, but Imperials and Redguards are supposed to get a crappy return health/stamina. Likewise, in this example I'd much rather play the Orc than any of the other human races, including the Nord for the Stamina DPS or Health Tanker Builds. All that being said I think it could be tweaked to make this system work.

However, I think I would prefer they just brought Soft Caps back into the system, and touch up some of the weaker race traits to balance them out. Additionally, I personally think they need to just rethink Argonian traits (Why don't they have stealthy), Redguard Traits (They really should have poison/disease resist), and Khajiit traits (Stealthy is the best part of this race). I think the removal of Soft Caps is really the elephant in the room here, and what wrecked racial traits. The other issue is that the magnitudes of some things in game have changed, which have thrown off the value of other traits (Like elemental resistances, poison resistances, etc). I don't see why they can't just rework some of the numbers to bring things back into balance, and bring soft caps back into the game. If they want Champion points to be something that goes over and above the Soft Cap, that's easy enough to work into their math as well, so I really don't see how its a problem.

Darkeus · May 2015

1. i never understood why orcs have speed bonuses, they have a bulky body not fit for speed, so they should have something like rage passive, when hp is lower then 50% they get 10% bonus dmg
2. dark elf passive is near useless if you arent DK...
3. red guard and imperial passives should be remade, so 6% lower stamina cost for red guards and imperial i dont know atm

Junkogen · May 2015

Again, I don't understand why some races we have honor previous games but others we make better. Why must Argonians retain such marginally useful passives like anything to do with potions while others get way more useful skills? In Skyrim Argonians had histskin which jacked up their health regen. What does that have to do with healing others? They also had tough skin and claws, maybe they should get damage reduction or increase? Why must we work within the confines of ESO's deeply flawed system?

stojekarcub18_ESO · May 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

Again, I don't understand why some races we have honor previous games but others we make better. Why must Argonians retain such marginally useful passives like anything to do with potions while others get way more useful skills? In Skyrim Argonians had histskin which jacked up their health regen. What does that have to do with healing others? They also had tough skin and claws, maybe they should get damage reduction or increase? Why must we work within the confines of ESO's deeply flawed system?

This post changed my stance on this issue. I didn't even consider this. Why should an ES game NOT be lore-friendly?

stojekarcub18_ESO · May 2015

also, Khajits should suffer an uncontrollable freak-out upon entering water.

Faulgor · May 2015

No. If you can chose attribute and regen buffs, it's not part of your race. There's no reason to introduce more choice here, and it doesn't make any sense to put these buffs under the race skill tree. If you want to move the stat buffs from something tied to your race to something you can freely chose, we already have that with birthsigns / mundus stones. Simply buff those, remove attribute and regen buffs from all races, and focus on unique passives like you proposed.

Except for one exception (+50 Magicka bonus to Altmer in Skyrim), racial bonuses never dictacted your maximum amount of a given attribute, and I don't see why they should in ESO. Racial bonuses usually focused on resistances and active abilities.

I posted these in another thread. They are modeled after previous games.

Altmer
- Major Resist Disease (40%)
- 1/2/3% chance to negate the cost of a spell

Argonian
- Major Resist Disease (40%)
- Major Resist Poison (40%)
- +50% Swim Speed for lack of Waterbreathing

Bosmer
- Major Resist Disease (40%)
- Major Reduce Detection Distance

Breton
- Major Resist Spell (20%)
- Shields from Shielding Spells increased by 5%

Dunmer
- Major Resist Fire (40%)
- On attack, 1/2/3% chance to summon Ancestral Ghost for 15 seconds

Imperial
- Increase gold found by 10%
- Lower repair cost by 10%

Khajiit
- No movement penalty while sneaking
- On attack, 1/2/3% chance to fear target

Nord
- Major Resist Frost (40%)
- Minor Resist Shock (20%)

Orc
- Minor Resist Spell (10%) ('tis true)
- On attack, 1/2/3% chance to increase power by 10%

Redguard
- Major Resist Poison (40%)
- 1/2/3% chance to negate the cost of a feat

The problem is that lots of races have poison and disease resists, but there is little poison and disease damage in the game. But I'd rather see that fixed than give races anything but lore-friendly bonuses.

Turelus · May 2015

While this is an awesome idea it's still not balanced in the eyes of those complaining. Because unless they all give identical bonuses or players all have identical choices people are going to complain.

Darkeus · May 2015

overall i think current racials are fine, minor changes here and there... nothing to drastic

Junkogen · May 2015

stojekarcub18_ESO wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

Again, I don't understand why some races we have honor previous games but others we make better. Why must Argonians retain such marginally useful passives like anything to do with potions while others get way more useful skills? In Skyrim Argonians had histskin which jacked up their health regen. What does that have to do with healing others? They also had tough skin and claws, maybe they should get damage reduction or increase? Why must we work within the confines of ESO's deeply flawed system?

This post changed my stance on this issue. I didn't even consider this. Why should an ES game NOT be lore-friendly?

I'm just saying there's a double standard. Imperials are the best example. They had a calming ability and increased luck in Skyrim and now they're the baddest bros on the block. Nobody complains about how lore-breaking that is, but when you talk about Argonians, people claim they have to suck because that's what they were in Skyrim.

People forget that Argonians are supposed to be guerrilla warfare experts, stormed the gates of Oblivion, and worship Sithis. Seems to me like they should have 12% increased health and 10% increased stamina.

If we're going to enforce the lore, enforce the lore. Otherwise, hook everybody up, not just the ones that sell Imperial editions.

Junkogen · May 2015

Darkeus wrote: »

overall i think current racials are fine, minor changes here and there... nothing to drastic

How are they fine? If they were fine there wouldn't be two or three obvious choices for builds. The resource boost imbalances are the biggest problem.

akray21 · May 2015

Kerioko wrote: »

As the title states, my idea for a simple way to balance racial passives while still having each race unique:

1st 3 passives chosen at character select, with in-game shrine that allows spending gold to reset these 3 choices!

- 1st racial passive: Weapon/Armor Proficiency: gives 15% training bonus to your choice of a weapon or armor type

- 2nd Racial Passive: Regen Expert: gives 5/10/15% bonus to your choice of regen (magicka, health, or stamina)

- 3rd Racial Passive: Stat Proficiency: gives 3/7/10% bonus to your choice of stat (magicka, health, or stamina)

-4th Racial Passive: Race Specific Passive: a special passive unique to each race!

Breton: 4% spell cost reduction and 10% spell resistance
Orc: 15% speed increase and 10% charge dmg boost
Redguard: 15% chance to return stamina on melee attack
Altmer: 10% boost to elemental damage
Bosmer: 10% stealth damage and 10% reduced sneak cost
Khajiit: 6% weapon crit and 10% stealth damage
Nord: 6% damage reduction from all sources with additional 15% frost resist
Argonian: 6% healing (both outgoing and incoming) and 10% boost to potions
Dunmer: 10% fire damage and 10% fire resistance
Imperial: 15% chance to return health on melee attack

This would give you the ability to play any class the way you won't while still providing the individuality of races!

I like this... I could still he a Bosmer magicka NB

akray21 · May 2015

Kerioko wrote: »

So, a little more balance:

Orc: 15% speed boost, 10% armor penetration
Dunmer: 15% fire dmg, 15% fire resist
Argonian: 10% healing(incoming, outgoing), 15% poison, disease resist
Nord: 10% damage reduction, and Frostbite(10% chance to slow targets when hit)

Can't get on board with 10% healing... all end game groups would require the healer to be an Argonian

Rust_in_Peace · May 2015

Racials were fine until they removed soft caps. That's what pisses me of about this situation. I picked breton because I just wanted to roll breton and magicka was a good thing to have for all classes. Now I play a stamina build and I am flat out 10% weaker than people playing redguard, imperial or even orc.

I like the rebalance idea with regaurds to choosing new stat bonuses while keeping the flavor of some of the races in. That's a solid compromise and the naysayers don't have to reroll if they don't want to.

Darkeus · May 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

Darkeus wrote: »

overall i think current racials are fine, minor changes here and there... nothing to drastic

How are they fine? If they were fine there wouldn't be two or three obvious choices for builds. The resource boost imbalances are the biggest problem.

rly?! and 6% crit chance or 6% lower dmg taken isnt a problem? noo thats nothing...

Gidorick · May 2015

I just watched this video and I have to say I agree with what was said. I was against racial stat rebalancing but think the points that @Elloa made were very sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy-SPKFGEnk&feature=youtu.be

Re-balance away.... as long as each race has perks that have the racial flavor to them. I'm down with that.