Breton's passives now are so unfair...

joshisanonymous · April 2015

I really hope ZoS doesn't decide to cater to these kinds of ridiculous arguments by offering race changes. Seriously, it's not that hard to reroll because all you have to focus on the second time around is leveling as fast as possible and ignoring all the extras. I tried this recently and it took me all of an hour to get a character to level 10. If that pace slows down enough that it takes a month even, who the hell cares? That's really not a long time. Race and name changes will be huge steps towards destroying anything meaningful about a player's choices in this game.

SilverWF · April 2015

SantaOrc wrote: »

2,9% costreduction are not 3-5, but 6 CPs.
If you do it yourself as Breton, you are at 3% + 2,9% = 5,9%
If other races want to reach 5,9%, they have to spend 13 points more than you.
So actually other races don't have to spend "3-5 CPs" as you state, but 13 to get the same benefit as you.

[snip]
Another race need to spent 6 CP to get my bonus, SIX, not 13!

And now calculate how many I need to spent to get 22% magica or stamina regen.
And how I can get HP bonus?

-3% spell cost is a spit in the face in no caps mechanics.
Yes, Bretons was good - before that and I said about that. Now they are not.
Why I need to repeat it for you?

Or lower stat passives on another races, because some races now - just an IMBA.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

SilverWF · April 2015

Artemiisia wrote: »

guys SilverWF, is a min/maxer so racial passives means something for him, especially since hes competing against hodor

so I understand why the rage, how ever its that way for all now SilverWF, many of us are rerolling to get the best out of the class/race again

You are rerolled - your choice.
Do not force me to do that.

Victus · April 2015

4/10 though am surprised people have been baited into replying.

Cagro · April 2015

What is the hard cap of Spell Cost Reduction if there is any? If there is not, then Bretons are still the best healer race.

Islyn · April 2015

This thread.

Sharee · April 2015

SilverWF wrote: »

SantaOrc wrote: »

2,9% costreduction are not 3-5, but 6 CPs.
If you do it yourself as Breton, you are at 3% + 2,9% = 5,9%
If other races want to reach 5,9%, they have to spend 13 points more than you.
So actually other races don't have to spend "3-5 CPs" as you state, but 13 to get the same benefit as you.

[snip]
Another race need to spent 6 CP to get my bonus, SIX, not 13!

Unless you did not spend any CP in champion magicka cost reduction yourself(which i very much doubt, considering you care about the stat enough to start a thread), the above is not true.

Only if you have ZERO cp invested in Magician, THEN they can spend 6 cp to get your bonus(catch up with your cost reduction)
If you have 21 cp invested, then they need to spend 26 cp more than you (47 total) to get your bonus (catch up)
If you have 100 cp invested, then they can not get your bonus/catch up no matter what.

Math:

You spend 21 CP in magician, this gives you 7.1% cost reduction, plus your racial three, for a total of 10.1%
They spend 21 CP in magician, this gives them 7.1% cost reduction, then they spend 26 more CP for a total of 10.1%

In this particular example, to negate your racial advantage, they had to spend TWENTY SIX more CP than you.

[Moderator Note: Edited moderated quote]

Septimus_Magna · April 2015

I think Bretons have pretty good passives actually.
Spell resistance is very useful, especially if you combine it with a couple pieces nirnhoned armor.
10% magicka is also very good, only other race that has this much magicka is Altmer.
Cost reduction is also good but I agree 3% is a bit low, 5% would be more in line with other passives.

Erock25 · April 2015

I'mjust sitting here as a Khajit magicka sorc wishing I had 10% max magicka and 3% cost reduction.

Hutuldur · April 2015

I got Bretton sorc since beginning and I couldn't be happier with passives

deepseamk20b14_ESO · April 2015

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

Please let all choose their 3 Passives and Good Game. Make it easy. You need to do all quest of racial areas and you can receive for example "Gift of the Bretons", "Gift of the Orcs" or whatever. Make Racial only cosmetic. No one could complain anymore and can roll the way he want to.

I've said this multiple times. In every elder scrolls game you see different races acting as different classes regardless of what the base race starting stats say they "should be" or are more inclined to be. Each race should have several passives to choose from. All different from other races to an extent so there is still variety, but you're able to build your character how you want. If you want a magicka type passive on a wood elf and a stamina, why not if that's you're play style? I know many of the people concerned with lore are against this but they need to realize this is an MMO that has touted itself as a "play as you want" game. Its more like "play as you want within the limits we set for you of course".

I'm fine with my wood elf. Would it be cool to change one or two things? Sure, but I'm definitely not re-rolling lol.

I do agree that racial choice plays a much bigger choice post 1.6 than it did before. That's undisputable. Take away soft caps and this is what happens. Myself? I am 50% for removal of soft caps and 50% for keeping them. I'll just adapt as always.

Emma_Overload · April 2015

Yeah, they should kick it up to 5%, but as a Breton Sorc, i've got MUCH bigger problems... Surge cooldown, weak or gimmicky DPS, constant nerfs from PvP whiners, etc.

Panda244 · April 2015

Breton was. And always shall be. The second choice for Mages, Altmer simply have and always have had more Magicka to work with, 3% spell cost reduction is nothing, and always was nothing, with an Altmer you have more Magicka and more Magicka recovery and therefor it is the better choice for Mages due to you simply being able to use more spells, have a higher recovery rate, etc. Bretons aren't bad, they aren't the best, Altmer always will be.

Spell Charge + Elemental Talent > Spell Resistance + Magicka Mastery

@Ezareth #AltmerMasterRace

Jules · April 2015

Yeah, Bretons aren't good Mages. Maybe magicka nb, but certainly not DK or sorc. However, I don't know why a damage dealer would have ever considered Breton to begin with when there are far more superior races. ALTMER. DUNMER. Both have 10%/9% max magicka respectively and also damage passives.

Just doesn't make sense to me I guess. I can see your point about it being a weaker race in this respect due to champion points... I guess I just don't understand why you chose Breton to begin with. Champion points aside, Breton was always a weaker mage.

Cody · April 2015

at least you are not playing an argonian..... you want to complain about breton racial passives? look at argonians. they are the ones that need a serious buff

bretons make great mages. they gain an extra 10% max magicka, and the spell resistance passive allows both magicka and stamina builds to have a bit more restsance to magic than other races.

the spell reduction passive is best stacked with other reduction passives, but it is fine as it is.

Ezareth · April 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

@Ezareth #AltmerMasterRace

TOO SOON. YOU HAVE AWAKENED ME TOO SOON, PANDA. WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS INTRUSION!??

Sharee wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

This -3% just equal to 3 or 5 champion points! Soooo cool racial passive! ><

That is misleading, because the cost depends on how many you already spent.

To get magicka cost reduction from 0% to 2.9%(a ~3% increase), you indeed only have to spend 6 champion points. But to get it from 7.1% to 10.1% (a 3% increase) you now have to spend 21 points. And every 3% increase after that costs more and more.

Several things to note. As Panda has noted Altmer are the Master Race for Sorcs and always were.

4% Damage bonus is multiplicative with the champion passive and will eventually give you 5% Fire/Frost/Shock damage (With 100 points into Elemental Mastery).

10% Max Magicka is a wash between Altmer/Breton.

Altmer 9% Magicka regen is multiplicative with champion passive and will eventually give you 11.16% regen increase.

3000 Spell resistance on a class that chiefly relies upon damage shields to mitigate damage seems pretty worthless (and with easy hard capped SR pre-1.6 was always worthless.

3% Cost reduction is != 3% Champion point reduction. Champion point reduction is actually calculated *after* your cost reduction set %s but acts independently from cost reduction enchants.

Breton 3% reduction is *additive* with your other cost reduction passive which makes it scale logarithmically with your cost reduction the higher it gets (including the Free Cystal Fragments). However in 1.6 They decided add a 12.3% Stealth nerf to *all* non-CP cost reduction percentages including the Breton racial. Your 3% actually works out to 2.631%.

So what does this mean? Take a 1000 base cost spell.
Let's look at the best possible(not counting Worm cult group buff since that's unrealistic) scenario for a Breton Sorc.
5% Sorc
21% 7/7 Light Armor
8% Seducer
8% Archmage
42% Cost
-12.3% Nerf

3000 base spell becomes 1896.

With Breton 3%?

3000 base spell becomes 1815

Best case scenario is you save 81 Magicka per 3000 in base cost but keep in mind in this scenario that is a 4.3% decrease in the cost of all of your spells compared to a player without Breton.

Now let's look at the worst case scenario:

5% Sorc
No Light armor
611 Magicka Cost reduction enchants

3000 Base cost spell becomes 2389 which is reduced to 2284
With Breton 3%?
3000 Base cost spell becomes 2389 which is reduced to 2221

Worst case scenario you save 63 Magick per 3000 in base cost. In this scenario your decrease is 2.76%.

Champion point cost reduction is directly comparable to this range (2.76%-4.3%).

So what does all this math tell you?

Hell if I know, I'm a sorc with unlimited Magicka. 3% cost reduction is about as bad as 3000 spell resist....except at least the 3000 spell resist can be increased by Nirnhoned Armor so 3% cost reduction is easily your worst racial currently....worth about a third of a Magicka Cost reduction enchant.

Altmer Master Race!

SilverWF · April 2015

Before cap remove my Sorc has Max magicka capped (yeah, because passive), but Max Health and Magicka regen were capped too!

Removing caps - was teh worst idea they ever made ><

Emma_Overload · April 2015

SilverWF wrote: »

Before cap remove my Sorc has Max magicka capped (yeah, because passive), but Max Health and Magicka regen were capped too!

Removing caps - was teh worst idea they ever made ><

Why? Did you enjoy running out of Magicka in the middle of fights or risking suicide with Spell Symmetry?

SilverWF · April 2015

To get ~3% reduced spell cost I need to spent 6 Champion Points
To get 10% of stamina, magicka or health regen I need to spent 27 CP and 35 CP to get 12% regen and a tons more to get 21% or 30% (I'm not sure if it even possible!)
To get 6% of Elemental damage I need to spent 13 CP
There is NO Max health, stamina or magicka passives in the Champion system

So, some races becomes overpowered in the new "NO CAPS" system (like Imperials), and some races - becomes underpowered (like Bretons).

djyrb · April 2015

@Ezareth - thanks for posting those numbers, it's a splash of cold water in the face for me, with 3 VR14 Breton characters. I liked to try out healing with all classes, so their cost reduction racial, albeit minor even before 1.6, was seen as an advantage for resource sustain, which is critical for a healer.

I always knew that Altmer would make the better DPS sorc, but I figured Breton would be able to have a smoother transition between roles, yet still be a viable magicka DPS.

However, in light of that stealth nerf, would you say that the Altmer combat recovery bonus > Breton cost reduction for a healer as well?

Cody · April 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

Panda244 wrote: »

@Ezareth #AltmerMasterRace

TOO SOON. YOU HAVE AWAKENED ME TOO SOON, PANDA. WHAT IS THE MEANING OF THIS INTRUSION!??

Sharee wrote: »

SilverWF wrote: »

This -3% just equal to 3 or 5 champion points! Soooo cool racial passive! ><

That is misleading, because the cost depends on how many you already spent.

To get magicka cost reduction from 0% to 2.9%(a ~3% increase), you indeed only have to spend 6 champion points. But to get it from 7.1% to 10.1% (a 3% increase) you now have to spend 21 points. And every 3% increase after that costs more and more.

Several things to note. As Panda has noted Altmer are the Master Race for Sorcs and always were.

4% Damage bonus is multiplicative with the champion passive and will eventually give you 5% Fire/Frost/Shock damage (With 100 points into Elemental Mastery).

10% Max Magicka is a wash between Altmer/Breton.

Altmer 9% Magicka regen is multiplicative with champion passive and will eventually give you 11.16% regen increase.

3000 Spell resistance on a class that chiefly relies upon damage shields to mitigate damage seems pretty worthless (and with easy hard capped SR pre-1.6 was always worthless.

3% Cost reduction is != 3% Champion point reduction. Champion point reduction is actually calculated *after* your cost reduction set %s but acts independently from cost reduction enchants.

Breton 3% reduction is *additive* with your other cost reduction passive which makes it scale logarithmically with your cost reduction the higher it gets (including the Free Cystal Fragments). However in 1.6 They decided add a 12.3% Stealth nerf to *all* non-CP cost reduction percentages including the Breton racial. Your 3% actually works out to 2.631%.

So what does this mean? Take a 1000 base cost spell.
Let's look at the best possible(not counting Worm cult group buff since that's unrealistic) scenario for a Breton Sorc.
5% Sorc
21% 7/7 Light Armor
8% Seducer
8% Archmage
42% Cost
-12.3% Nerf

3000 base spell becomes 1896.

With Breton 3%?

3000 base spell becomes 1815

Best case scenario is you save 81 Magicka per 3000 in base cost but keep in mind in this scenario that is a 4.3% decrease in the cost of all of your spells compared to a player without Breton.

Now let's look at the worst case scenario:

5% Sorc
No Light armor
611 Magicka Cost reduction enchants

3000 Base cost spell becomes 2389 which is reduced to 2284
With Breton 3%?
3000 Base cost spell becomes 2389 which is reduced to 2221

Worst case scenario you save 63 Magick per 3000 in base cost. In this scenario your decrease is 2.76%.

Champion point cost reduction is directly comparable to this range (2.76%-4.3%).

So what does all this math tell you?

Hell if I know, I'm a sorc with unlimited Magicka. 3% cost reduction is about as bad as 3000 spell resist....except at least the 3000 spell resist can be increased by Nirnhoned Armor so 3% cost reduction is easily your worst racial currently....worth about a third of a Magicka Cost reduction enchant.

Altmer Master Race!

crap, i forgot to lure you here with damage shields!!!

the trap is not set!!! curse you panda!!! you have foiled my plans!!!!!!!!!

#ARGONIANMASTERRACE
#BATMANISBETTERTHANSUPERMAN

SilverWF · April 2015

djyrb wrote: »

However, in light of that stealth nerf, would you say that the Altmer combat recovery bonus > Breton cost reduction for a healer as well?

My VR8 Khajiit mage NB (mage only while he is leveling) now have 1700+ magicka regen (with food), so add here 12% (in case he will be Altmeri) - it will be nearly 200 extra magicka per sec. In case he will be Breton it will be less than 90 of magicka saved per cast.

I'll repeat: without caps Bretons aren't so good choice to be a mage with so low reduced spell cost passive.

F7sus4 · April 2015

There's nothing to cry about Bretons. If any race should receive more attention, it's Argonians.

Khivas_Carrick · April 2015

SantaOrc wrote: »

@SilverWF:
Breton Sorc here. Imperial Preorder, i am so cool.

2,9% costreduction are not 3-5, but 6 CPs.
If you do it yourself as Breton, you are at 3% + 2,9% = 5,9%
If other races want to reach 5,9%, they have to spend 13 points more than you.
So actually other races don't have to spend "3-5 CPs" as you state, but 13 to get the same benefit as you.
And guess what? If you spend those 13 more points as a breton, too, you are at 8,9%. Try to reach that which another race; would take you another 19 points. No matter how many points the other races will spend, you will be always 3% ahead of them. When they maxed out at 15,8%, you are still at 18,8%.

If thats still way too bad for you, go ahead and reroll.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

Yea, that.

Khivas_Carrick · April 2015

Also, cost reduction is super powerful now and you are sorely underestimating it, especially since skill costs got jacked up immensely.

I suggest you stop complaining now as everybody in this thread has proven you wrong in your idea that Breton equates to being bad.

SilverWF · April 2015

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Also, cost reduction is super powerful now and you are sorely underestimating it, especially since skill costs got jacked up immensely.

Someone missed maths lessons as I see.
Percents are always percents.

Septimus_Magna · April 2015

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Also, cost reduction is super powerful now and you are sorely underestimating it, especially since skill costs got jacked up immensely.

I suggest you stop complaining now as everybody in this thread has proven you wrong in your idea that Breton equates to being bad.

I agree, cost reduction can be seen as dubble regen. You save magicka when you cast it and its also saved because you dont need to regenerate it. Regeneration only gives magicka back so if you cast a lot of spells in a short time the actual benefit is very little (only a couple regen ticks). Cost reduction is always active and because its percentage based you save a lot of magicka for spells that cost a lot which further increases the value.

SilverWF · April 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Also, cost reduction is super powerful now and you are sorely underestimating it, especially since skill costs got jacked up immensely.

I suggest you stop complaining now as everybody in this thread has proven you wrong in your idea that Breton equates to being bad.

I agree, cost reduction can be seen as dubble regen. You save magicka when you cast it and its also saved because you dont need to regenerate it. Regeneration only gives magicka back so if you cast a lot of spells in a short time the actual benefit is very little (only a couple regen ticks). Cost reduction is always active and because its percentage based you save a lot of magicka for spells that cost a lot which further increases the value.

Septimus Mezar - VR14 Altmer Sorcerer

Okaaaaaay

Valencer · April 2015

I'd love to hear your reasoning for considering an imperial magicka-based sorcerer. I mean, I actively play one because Im stubborn and always play imperials in TES games, but I wouldnt recommend it to anyone after the rebalancing of 1.6.

Sorcerers need to stack magicka now. Lots of it. It gives you stronger shields and more damage. Besides that sorcerers need high magicka and stamina regen for sustainability and survival. Neither of which are given by the imperial passives.

Stacking health on a light armour sorcerer doesnt get you anywhere anymore as you're screwed when your shield is down, anyway... slightly higher health wont make much of a difference with low mitigation from light armour. Max stamina is far less useful than stamina regen for a magicka-based char.

I get about +1.5k health and +1k stamina as an imperial. Being a breton would give me about +2.5k magicka. I know which one I would pick with the current stat-stacking meta. (It's not Imperial)

Dragnelus · April 2015

Make a petition. Breton passive 20% reduced skill reduction. I wouldnt mind ^^