I see no imbalance as well. You don't have to be stacked with Stam to dodge roll. Dodge is part of playing the game.

Baphomet wrote: »

@ZoS I can appreciate that 1.6 brought about many changes, and in the process of fine-tuning the balance subsequently, let me suggest that some type of dodge-rolling penalty is implemented - similar to the very same type that was brought upon streak to prevent spammage and avoiding combat.

Dodge-rolling and stamina builds is a little over the top right now and needs to be tweaked a little. The very reason why steak was penalized is now the case with dodging, so fair should be fair.

@Gina_Bruno please forward to the combat team.

So costing HALF of my tiny Stamina pool isn't enough for you... you want an even bigger nerf?

NO.

I see no problems with the current setup. Damage mitigation class spells used magicka, and dodge roll, block,etc uses stamina. Seems balanced to me.

I have suggested many times before -- make cc breaks, dodges, etc use the resource of the skill type they are countering

Haha it is funny to see all the stamina users defending the roll dodge from being nerfed. Right now when youre in magica build u can use one time break free or about 2-3 roll dodges. Diference between roll dodge and shields or bolt escape are so huge that i have to point it out:
1. BE and shields doesnt prevent u from being hit. Shields in current state are useful but without stamina to break free they are melting like ice in a volcano. U can be cced through shield. U can be hit while bolt escaping, there is a ton of ways to kill be sorc, if u dont know how - what are doing here? While using a roll dodge gives u perma damage immunity no matter what number of ppl is trying to kill you, no matter how they are trying to do so, you cant be hit. The only thing that goes through roll dodge are daedric curse and streak (which is useles right now, bc of hard cc). Its hilarious when group of 10 ppl cannot kill single guy which trolls them with a roll dodge.
2. Costs. Compare costs and effectiveness of roll dodge and defensive skills.
3. Roll dodge is not a skill, it doesnt use any slot on ure skill bar and can be used on any skill&weapon setup.
4. I dont want it to be nerfed because i have stamina NB and DK to, but its just lol-like when im forced on my sorc to use 1h+shield and permablock because if i dont im perma cced (1 cc break uses about 60% of my stamina).

Mayrael wrote: »

Haha it is funny to see all the stamina users defending the roll dodge from being nerfed. Right now when youre in magica build u can use one time break free or about 2-3 roll dodges. Diference between roll dodge and shields or bolt escape are so huge that i have to point it out:
1. BE and shields doesnt prevent u from being hit. Shields in current state are useful but without stamina to break free they are melting like ice in a volcano. U can be cced through shield. U can be hit while bolt escaping, there is a ton of ways to kill be sorc, if u dont know how - what are doing here? While using a roll dodge gives u perma damage immunity no matter what number of ppl is trying to kill you, no matter how they are trying to do so, you cant be hit. The only thing that goes through roll dodge are daedric curse and streak (which is useles right now, bc of hard cc). Its hilarious when group of 10 ppl cannot kill single guy which trolls them with a roll dodge.

1. Try Ball of Lightning, only way to catch up is with gap closers or bolt escape (+morph). Any magicka single target abilities will be absorbed by the lightning ball and any people trying to close the gap with a charge move will get stunned for 2sec, giving the Sorcerer enough time to get out of range from those abilities.

Dodge rolling doesn't give perma immunity, it gives a 100% dodge frame which is not the same. Dodge only affects attacks in the Physical and Projectile categories. So any magicka based abilities that aren't projectiles go right trough your dodge, good exemple of those abilities are Molten Whip, Daedric Curse, Impulse, Sap Essence, Jesus Beam, Soul Assault, Meteor, Bat Swarm, ...

There are plenty of counters against dodge rollers, people just need to start using more of those.

2,3 or even 4 dodge rolls consecutively to avoid dmg is fine, but when they do it 50 times in the direction of their keep to get to safety and avoid getting killed by 3 players....something is [snip] up. Infinite dodge roll and spamming vigor + rally for 5 full minutes...yea, its broken.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Mayrael wrote: »

Haha it is funny to see all the stamina users defending the roll dodge from being nerfed. Right now when youre in magica build u can use one time break free or about 2-3 roll dodges. Diference between roll dodge and shields or bolt escape are so huge that i have to point it out:
1. BE and shields doesnt prevent u from being hit. Shields in current state are useful but without stamina to break free they are melting like ice in a volcano. U can be cced through shield. U can be hit while bolt escaping, there is a ton of ways to kill be sorc, if u dont know how - what are doing here? While using a roll dodge gives u perma damage immunity no matter what number of ppl is trying to kill you, no matter how they are trying to do so, you cant be hit. The only thing that goes through roll dodge are daedric curse and streak (which is useles right now, bc of hard cc). Its hilarious when group of 10 ppl cannot kill single guy which trolls them with a roll dodge.
2. Costs. Compare costs and effectiveness of roll dodge and defensive skills.
3. Roll dodge is not a skill, it doesnt use any slot on ure skill bar and can be used on any skill&weapon setup.
4. I dont want it to be nerfed because i have stamina NB and DK to, but its just lol-like when im forced on my sorc to use 1h+shield and permablock because if i dont im perma cced (1 cc break uses about 60% of my stamina).

This was a good Lol

Makes me wonder if any of these complainers have actually tried running various stamina builds..

As someone who played stamina since launch, with many different types of builds. Some of these nerfs would flat out kill stamina builds. I can just imagine trying to survive in DSA and dealing with no regen ticks during roll dodge, or increased cost of roll dodge. As it is already with high regen, i cannot simply roll dodge all day while throwing up defensive skills to stay alive. Having roll dodge cost MORE and i would stop getting invited period.

It was even harder before, when my builds weren't relying on high stamina regen. Not every stamina build is using high regen, these nerfs would kill them. I think people are just mad, they can't get free stamina player kills as easily anymore.

Mayrael wrote: »

@OdinForge Nope its not about free stamina kills, its about balance. If youd read me carefuly youd know that i have 2 based stamina chars. But i like to play all of my toons, each is diferent and uniqe but right now its very anoying on my magica sorc that the only viable weapon to fight multiple enemies is 1h+shield cause of block costs reduction and permablock, cause if i get cced twice im already dead cause i dont have stamina to break free again. My 2 stamina chars are so way easier to play right now its just riddiculus. I know that stamina builds were in this situation since launch but it is not the good way to restore the balance of the force. Maybe it roll dodge and break free should cost some % of ure total stamina pool not a flat number. Medium armor could still give some cost reduction to roll dodge and break free, but at least it wouldnt be unreal for magica users to roll dodge or break free while beeing attacked by multiple enemies.

I don't want to say "L2P magicka", because i think that's a terrible response. But most Sorcs i fight have no issue liquefying me through roll dodge with Destro/Resto. Between curse and detonation pressure, proper timing of basic attacks with crystal frag. A proper Sorc can burn through my own stamina bar. It's not all roll doging, most of the time roll dodgers are evading multiple people like a Sorc would bolt away. Against a proper Sorc i need to constantly bash to prevent detonation or other casted abilities, while keeping my defensive abilities up and throwing out damage and keeping my HP up. This takes a huge toll on even my high regen stamina pool..there is a video out there that shows how fast my stamina pool drains in a fight like this. I dare say it might even be impossible for most stamina users not on regen. The benefit of the Sorc is even though CC cost more, he isn't actively using that resource. And you can build out nice regen for stamina too. CC and dodge cost less for me, but once i run out of stamina i cannot attack, heal or defend myself. It doesn't matter if my HP and magicka is at 100%, once I'm out of stamina i'm dead too.

In a situation like this, a penalty to roll dodge. Laughable.

Why don't we just let 1.6 settle in for a few more months, then see where we are?

It's too early yet to make deep adjustments. Most players are still adjusting to 1.6, with many thinking it's grossly imbalanced in part because they've stubbornly held on to their preferred build and playstyle. They therefore think it's impossible to kill [fill in the blank], despite the fact that others playing their class have figured it out.

Let's see how it turns out. Will Cyrodiil be filled with perma-rolling stam builds that are nearly unkillable? Or will that be mostly a small group of Alcoholic Bosmer NB Werewolves? You give up a fair bit of max damage if you stack regeneration instead of weapon/ spell damage or maximum stam/ magicka. Also, the more people out there running a perma-dodge build, the more people will build to kill it.

Patience

Mayrael wrote: »

Haha it is funny to see all the stamina users defending the roll dodge from being nerfed. Right now when youre in magica build u can use one time break free or about 2-3 roll dodges. Diference between roll dodge and shields or bolt escape are so huge that i have to point it out:
1. BE and shields doesnt prevent u from being hit. Shields in current state are useful but without stamina to break free they are melting like ice in a volcano. U can be cced through shield. U can be hit while bolt escaping, there is a ton of ways to kill be sorc, if u dont know how - what are doing here? While using a roll dodge gives u perma damage immunity no matter what number of ppl is trying to kill you, no matter how they are trying to do so, you cant be hit. The only thing that goes through roll dodge are daedric curse and streak (which is useles right now, bc of hard cc). Its hilarious when group of 10 ppl cannot kill single guy which trolls them with a roll dodge.
2. Costs. Compare costs and effectiveness of roll dodge and defensive skills.
3. Roll dodge is not a skill, it doesnt use any slot on ure skill bar and can be used on any skill&weapon setup.
4. I dont want it to be nerfed because i have stamina NB and DK to, but its just lol-like when im forced on my sorc to use 1h+shield and permablock because if i dont im perma cced (1 cc break uses about 60% of my stamina).

I stopped at the "prevent you from being hit" part
there are quite a few abilities that still hit players despite roll dodging; and I've dealt with them constantly. flame whip, concealed weapon(whatever that ones called, I don't use it) BE i believe, ambush, even uppercut every now and then.
Lets see what other abilities.... meteor is almost undodgable, resto heavies cant be dodged, lighting staff heavies cant seem to be dodged, yeah, you get my point. Heck I know there are still more abilities that get thru dodge rolling

.Now Im not saying there is not a problem with roll dodging, im saying that there is a reason for it being jacked up in the first place.

Players can roll dodge while still performing about 15 stamina based actions after about 7-10 rolls, because of the lack of soft caps, very high resource regeneration, and very high resource pools. It is not the mechanic itself, its the PvP system as a whole.

If you nerf roll dodging, you make it impossible to effectively use it WITHOUT making one of these ridiculous infinite resource builds.

so instead of asking for nerfs for every problem you see, think of why it is like it is, and think of a way to FIX IT, not MAKE IT WORSE.

that, or just deal with it.

pick one friend

Sure, nerf dodge roll for stamina users.

But at the same time nerf shield stacking magicka users.

Shieldstacking needs to go away.

Dodgeroll needs to be adjusted (to not be infinitely spammed)

Bolt Escape is already nerfed.

One doesn't really have to spent a lot of time in game or on Youtube to see that the balance is more [snip] up than ever. Not only did @ZoS try to empower stamina builds, but they also nerfed magicka builds in the process.

Stamina builds, regardless of class, can be specced in such ways that they are more imbalanced than the old 7 light DK - bravo Zenimax.

Now, this imbalance doesn't just originate from a single cause, but it is a lot of things coming together in a way that apparently was too complex for the combat team to foresee.

In short though, it is a mixture buffs to the weapon skill lines, medium armor + the availability of stamina gear along with the removal of softcaps.

Not only does it cost close to nothing for a stamina build to break CC or dodge-roll, they even made it so that they get CC immunity for waaay longer than everybody else - no one sees how idiotic this is?

And the fact that you have a game where you can move faster in stealth that others can sprinting and out-sprint projectiles - what kind of brilliant game mechanics are those?

Then let's throw in a two-handed stamina feats that heals better than breath of life, just to have a little fun.

A few things that needs to be changed to bring some balance back into the game:

1. Consecutive dodge-rolling should have a penalty.
2. CC immunity after breaking free should not be prolonged by people using medium armor.
3. Uppercut should be interuptible again.
4. Sneak attacks should only be possible from melee range (or allow all weapons to do it again)
5. Movement speed should be addressed - stealthed and unstealthed.
6. Stamina gear should be nerfed back again after their empowerment prior to the cap-removal.
7. Restore light armor.

And yes, there are some magicka issues also, which are screwing up this game, too, and they of course needs to be nerfed as well.

1. Shield stacking - more broken than prior to 1.6. Only the strongest shield should apply as long as they are of same type i.e. healing ward and hardened ward shouldn't stack, but hardened ward and harness magicka should.
2. Bolt escape balls of lightning - these are too effective at absorbing projectiles and linger for far too long. Too effective at avoiding combat just like dodge-rolling.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]