In the end Champion System will become unbalanced

BugCollector · April 2015

Players who play more than others will become more powerful, even with the diminishing returns. There should be a cap for the amount of CP points you can earn. Say 300.

Robotmafia · April 2015

well 300 is definetly to low, you couldn't even reach the 120 passives... I agree that there will be an unbalance over the years but im sure they will add or change things so it will be easier for people to catch up once it becomes a bigger problem... like most mmos, at first things are hard to get then after a while the devs make it easier so everyone can get it and they then can introduce a new carrot

Helluin · April 2015

A cap was already discussed while update 6 was on PTS, there was also another proposal about a different curve for diminishing returns.

The problem will arise more in future in PvP, especially for new players and returning players who don't have a system to catch up.
Committed players have obviously an advantage, it's fine, but the issue is more related to new and returning ones.
@AbraXuSeXile wrote a topic around one month ago on this matter as well.

Especially in a BtP game many players have breaks and return active, so an increased store enlightenment (not just 12 days) would help for this.

With BtP, as guild leader, I saw around 25-30% of my guild/community members reactivate.
Amongst those just few will continue, other ones (especially the PvP focused ones) prefer to stick to our guild on another BtP MMO and the reasons are mainly: this power gap PvP wise in the long run, performances in Cyrodiil, bug issues, lack of new PvE contents.
This obviously stopped also the other ones who were thinking to give again a try to TESO.

DerpyShadowz · April 2015

Yep, just wait for the 1200 champion point boost in the crown store a year from now

PainfulFAFA · April 2015

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful, even with the diminishing returns. There should be a cap for the amount of CP points you can earn. Say 300.

Robotmafia wrote: »

well 300 is definetly to low, you couldn't even reach the 120 passives... I agree that there will be an unbalance over the years but im sure they will add or change things so it will be easier for people to catch up once it becomes a bigger problem... like most mmos, at first things are hard to get then after a while the devs make it easier so everyone can get it and they then can introduce a new carrot

Do you think ZOS would put up CPs on crown store?

Kalifas · April 2015

I Highlander l wrote: »

Yep, just wait for the 1200 champion point boost in the crown store a year from now

They won't do that. That would remove all the grind and equal to people playing the game less.

Haxnschwammer · April 2015

If someone pays, they will. The curse of cash shop.

Syntse · April 2015

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

olsborg · April 2015

Agree with OP, this worries me, atm I have time to keep up with the cp gain, but during the summer I do not and will likely fall behind by 50-100 points compared to my friends who can play much more then me. If this happenes often enough, I will after a while be behind by 2-300 points and by that time the system will make me feel underpowered and alienated and ill likely just quit.

Im pretty sure im not the only one in this boat.

Moonshadow66 · April 2015

I don't understand the problem.. people who play more level earlier and are more powerful, like in every other game. Not sure how anyone who plays once a month should reach f.e. VR14 during an evening and gain all CP?

Moonshadow66 · April 2015

I Highlander l wrote: »

Yep, just wait for the 1200 champion point boost in the crown store a year from now

I'd be curious about the price.. 50 bucks a point?^^

Cherryblossom · April 2015

The other day I dueled my friend who's just joined the game, both of us have Sorc's Level 16 using the same skills. The difference between us, I do 5% more damage and take 5% less damage. So it was a fair fight!

I do wonder if they even thought about CP before they implemented!

SC0TY999 · April 2015

Remove the CP system re-introduce 1.5 and balance that out.

I feel they were nearly there with 1.5 being balanced (skill wise) maybe not stamina builds though, they needed a bit more love, but overall it was starting to feel balanced.

And then they release 1.6 and throw the game into chaos (my opinion).

TheShadowScout · April 2015

The issue is as mentioned - people who play more will be a tad better, and people who play less will never ever catch up.

And I am okay with that. Even though I likely will always be barely in the middle fiend, and never ever be able to face against any of the hardcore players one-on-one in cyrodil. But then, I never ever was, anyhow, so nothing really changes for me... I'll need allies along to take on the big bad players, and can only occasionally win against some lowbies. And I'll never get the leaderboards anywhere either, more likely then not.

But I am having fun regardless, so... why should I care? Its pretty muhc the same in every other game I played as well, so why should I expect ESO be different?

And there are some small features to make sure it doesn't get too bad... enlightment for one C-point per day, adding up to 12 days for those who can't play every day during the week, but can spend their time on weekends for example (wish horse upgrades would ahve the same feature though...).

The crown store... well, I would doubt they'd ever sell actual c-points there, but... someday, when the c-point gap starts to become -really- hefty, I could see an "elightment potion" that adds one or more c-points worth of enlightment... possibly depending on c-point total... (for example, under 100 c-points = 12 c-points worth enlightment, 100-200 = 6 c-points, 200-400: 3 c-points worth, 400-800: 1 c-point worth ; 800+ c-points = potion ineffective)
Guess time will tell.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · April 2015

so, the argument here is that, over time, people who play the game more have a leg up on others...........i sometimes ask if people think things out, then i remember society is mostly filled with sheep

RainfeatherUK · April 2015

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

People expect equality to such a degree, they forget about the work and time of others. Ultimately turning every game into an easymode festival of pointlessness that bores everybody. Even themselves.

In the early days of MMO's we played with player rank ladders for class, everyone knew who put the work in and it was a totally different environment. Effort should be rewarded. These days its neutered so nobody gets upset.

What you have is a result of self-entitlement and people having an unwillingness to accept that time is the real investment. They'll try and side step everything in the name of 'I have other commitments, so give me everything now - or im gone', but really they just cant handle someone being better unless they work hard.

Of course they'll say 'its a game not a job' - but an MMO is more than that. Its the nature of people that counts.

It puts companies in a difficult position. Since the mass market is filled with like minded players now. That money talks and they pander to it.

Is it right? No. For me I believe that where you invest your greatest effort, you should receive your greatest reward. Hell they even teach that at Church.

The world is just too afraid to tell people to GTFO anymore. Pathetic really.

Rune_Relic · April 2015

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.]

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

People expect equality to such a degree, they forget about the work and time of others. Ultimately turning every game into an easymode festival of pointlessness that bores everybody. Even themselves.

In the early days of MMO's we played with player rank ladders for class, everyone knew who put the work in and it was a totally different environment. Effort should be rewarded. These days its neutered so nobody gets upset.

What you have is a result of self-entitlement and people having an unwillingness to accept that time is the real investment. They'll try and side step everything in the name of 'I have other commitments, so give me everything now - or im gone', but really they just cant handle someone being better unless they work hard.

Of course they'll say 'its a game not a job' - but an MMO is more than that. Its the nature of people that counts.

It puts companies in a difficult position. Since the mass market is filled with like minded players now. That money talks and they pander to it.

Is it right? No. For me I believe that where you invest your greatest effort, you should receive your greatest reward. Hell they even teach that at Church.

The world is just too afraid to tell people to GTFO anymore. Pathetic really.

So why should everyone else suffer so YOU can have a good time ?
and you have the audacity to call everyone who wants parity entitled ?
REALLY ?

Selfish people gonna be selfish.
First step in fixing a problem is recognising you have one.
Exactly why should you be more powerful than everyone else because you have more time to devote (lucky you) to a game ?

The choice is simple...everyone has fun... or you have fun at the expense of everyone else.
Which one is actually selfish and entitled ?

Perhaps games are moving over to casual players because they make up the majority who are sick to deaf of being nothing but cattle fodder to appease a few selfish people with no interest in a games welfare except their own personal gratification

I_killed_Vivec · April 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.]

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

People expect equality to such a degree, they forget about the work and time of others. Ultimately turning every game into an easymode festival of pointlessness that bores everybody. Even themselves.

In the early days of MMO's we played with player rank ladders for class, everyone knew who put the work in and it was a totally different environment. Effort should be rewarded. These days its neutered so nobody gets upset.

What you have is a result of self-entitlement and people having an unwillingness to accept that time is the real investment. They'll try and side step everything in the name of 'I have other commitments, so give me everything now - or im gone', but really they just cant handle someone being better unless they work hard.

Of course they'll say 'its a game not a job' - but an MMO is more than that. Its the nature of people that counts.

It puts companies in a difficult position. Since the mass market is filled with like minded players now. That money talks and they pander to it.

Is it right? No. For me I believe that where you invest your greatest effort, you should receive your greatest reward. Hell they even teach that at Church.

The world is just too afraid to tell people to GTFO anymore. Pathetic really.

So why should everyone else suffer so YOU can have a good time ?
and you have the audacity to call everyone who wants parity entitled ?
REALLY ?

Selfish people gonna be selfish.
First step in fixing a problem is recognising you have one.
Exactly why should you be more powerful than everyone else because you have more time to devote (lucky you) to a game ?

The choice is simple...everyone has fun... or you have fun at the expense of everyone else.
Which one is actually selfish and entitled ?

Perhaps games are moving over to casual players because they make up the majority who are sick to deaf of being nothing but cattle fodder to appease a few selfish people with no interest in a games welfare except their own personal gratification

Some people want to progress.

Some people want to be competitive no matter what other people do.

I don't see either as more or less selfish than the other...

ahstin2001nub18_ESO · April 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful

Isn't that normal? You put your time and effort to it and you will be more powerful.]

Seems people want everyone to be equal no matter have they put 2 days or 2 years of their life into it.

People expect equality to such a degree, they forget about the work and time of others. Ultimately turning every game into an easymode festival of pointlessness that bores everybody. Even themselves.

In the early days of MMO's we played with player rank ladders for class, everyone knew who put the work in and it was a totally different environment. Effort should be rewarded. These days its neutered so nobody gets upset.

What you have is a result of self-entitlement and people having an unwillingness to accept that time is the real investment. They'll try and side step everything in the name of 'I have other commitments, so give me everything now - or im gone', but really they just cant handle someone being better unless they work hard.

Of course they'll say 'its a game not a job' - but an MMO is more than that. Its the nature of people that counts.

It puts companies in a difficult position. Since the mass market is filled with like minded players now. That money talks and they pander to it.

Is it right? No. For me I believe that where you invest your greatest effort, you should receive your greatest reward. Hell they even teach that at Church.

The world is just too afraid to tell people to GTFO anymore. Pathetic really.

So why should everyone else suffer so YOU can have a good time ?
and you have the audacity to call everyone who wants parity entitled ?
REALLY ?

Selfish people gonna be selfish.
First step in fixing a problem is recognising you have one.
Exactly why should you be more powerful than everyone else because you have more time to devote (lucky you) to a game ?

The choice is simple...everyone has fun... or you have fun at the expense of everyone else.
Which one is actually selfish and entitled ?

Perhaps games are moving over to casual players because they make up the majority who are sick to deaf of being nothing but cattle fodder to appease a few selfish people with no interest in a games welfare except their own personal gratification

why should i suffer so you could have a good time? sounds selfish that i can't be selfish for how i enjoy my rewards for time and effort invested. why should i be just as weak as you, because you have less time to play the game? sounds like you want to have fun at the expense of my devotion to a game you kinda-sorta think about once a month. maybe some players just don't care for players, that rarely play, who over valuing their contribution (or lack there of) to a game, but want an even playing field, even though others have more time/effort/money invested into their characters.

your logic goes both ways ya know...

RoamingRiverElk · April 2015

I would like to be successful in PvP due to my skill and gear choices, not due to some passives that will apply no matter what in addition to that. And I'd like the same to be true for my enemies. I truly hope they will introduce several new campaigns with different CP ceilings, such as CP 350, CP 600, ... Yes, I said campaigns because I don't want to be locked into just one campaign because there are also other factors that determine whether or not a campaign is enjoyable to play in (zerging, lag, faction balance).

Soulac · April 2015

Just make the diminishing return more noticeable.
Far more noticeable.

RainfeatherUK · April 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So why should everyone else suffer so YOU can have a good time ?
and you have the audacity to call everyone who wants parity entitled ?
REALLY ?

Selfish people gonna be selfish.
First step in fixing a problem is recognising you have one.
Exactly why should you be more powerful than everyone else because you have more time to devote (lucky you) to a game ?

The choice is simple...everyone has fun... or you have fun at the expense of everyone else.
Which one is actually selfish and entitled ?

Perhaps games are moving over to casual players because they make up the majority who are sick to deaf of being nothing but cattle fodder to appease a few selfish people with no interest in a games welfare except their own personal gratification

Has nothing to do with having a good time. Has everything to do with whats fair.

If you work hard at something, when someone else doesn't, you should always have the superior position. Thats a basic life principle.

Why should you be equivalent to someone who has invested effort, when you have not?

If I make a choice to be a professional boxer, I hope I can compete. If Iam not and I box as a hobby - I'll never expect to equal to the pro in the ring.

They are sacrificing time to do what they are doing. If you dont have that time, you are investing it elsewhere are you not? Thats common sense. Making gains in other areas that they cannot - because they are busy training.

Its balanced.

Everything should be the same. When it becomes out of whack, because of things like self-entitlement, yes the global value is diminished.

Perhaps before you presume to judge, you should correctly understand my intent. I've spent most of my life fighting for the free liberty of others. Believe me, I don't need morality lessons from you.

Keron · April 2015

The easy solution is to make the CP gain rate quicker over time. Say in half a year from now, you will need to earn only 200k exp for a point or 50k enlighted. A year from now you half it again, and so on. If this is too step, shorten the periods.

Yes, the established players will then also gain CP quicker, but the new players will much quicker close in to the decisive early on milestones. The difference will not be perceived as badly as it would be with the rates right now.

If I were the designer of this system, this would be what I'd plan.

Sav72 · April 2015

I am sorry, but why hurt players who play more and add a cap?

This is life, deal with it and stop complaining about every thing.

Tors · April 2015

BugCollector wrote: »

Players who play more than others will become more powerful, even with the diminishing returns.

Yes, this is the entire point of these games,

I feel you are confusing this genre with a different one, maybe stop playing this game now before you invest too much time into it.

For a game where all players are equal look to the consoles where there are many variants which may suit you.
(just be sure not to pick the console version of ESO of course!!)

TequilaFire · April 2015

A cap would be meaningless because players would reach cap and still be more powerful than a player that hasn't reached cap.
In character progression someone will always be more powerful than others this is game life.
That is unless you want a game where everyone plays naked and with training swords so they are equal.

Knootewoot · April 2015

Robotmafia wrote: »

well 300 is definetly to low, you couldn't even reach the 120 passives... I agree that there will be an unbalance over the years but im sure they will add or change things so it will be easier for people to catch up once it becomes a bigger problem... like most mmos, at first things are hard to get then after a while the devs make it easier so everyone can get it and they then can introduce a new carrot

This should be a good thing. Then you cannot get all passives 120 cp passives = more variety between people = taking crucial decisions instead of blindly spending CP's.

Keron · April 2015

Caps defeat the purpose of an "indefinite character progression system".

Another proposal (alternatively to the one I made above):

Combine double diminishing returns. Make each point less efficient than the one before (as already is) and at the same time make each consecutive champion rank take more xp.

Anything but caps.

TheShadowScout · April 2015

Capping c-points would kinda spoil the whole purpose of slow but steady continous advancement. And I have to say, I like the very idea of that, a lot... how often have i felt vexed in other games, when at playing six months at max level they raised the level cap, and I was sad all that expee I -could- have earned through all the playing those six months was lost to me and I had to do it all over again to reach the new level cap... only to have the very same happen again the next time they raise cap.

With the champion system, that is a non-issue, because no matter the level cap, I will always earn c-points. One each day easily through enlightenment, and more if I play more some day. And if I sometimes cannot play every day, the emlightnment will add up and I can then earn c-points at the reduced rate for each day I missed. Never again that vexed feeeling of my efforts being wasted.

And while it will take me a long time to get to any impressive passives, the sense that someday I will get them is always there, always motivating me.
Why should I care if someone who spends more time then me will always have more champion power? They spent the time, they did the effort, they darn well earned it. I'd object to any who gained it through some exploit, I'd object to any who demand gains without earning them, but I have no problem with people who make more of an effort being better then my lil ole character in the end.

And in any case, the only place it really matters in in cyrodil, and since that is free form PvP, if you aren't as champion-powered as the others, remember that quantity has a quality of its own... and bring more friends then they, work together, and in most cases you'll manage to do well that way too (there are the occasional exceptions, but that has been so even before the champion system...).

Although... more cyrodil campaigns, some with champion point limits might not be such a bad idea... at least one for people new to the champion system to earn their spurs without falling prey to highpowered PKers all the time might be worth thinking about.

olsborg · April 2015

Knootewoot wrote: »

Robotmafia wrote: »

well 300 is definetly to low, you couldn't even reach the 120 passives... I agree that there will be an unbalance over the years but im sure they will add or change things so it will be easier for people to catch up once it becomes a bigger problem... like most mmos, at first things are hard to get then after a while the devs make it easier so everyone can get it and they then can introduce a new carrot

This should be a good thing. Then you cannot get all passives 120 cp passives = more variety between people = taking crucial decisions instead of blindly spending CP's.

this is my belief too, choices that matters more then spamming cp randomly because eventually youll have them all.

600 max cp would be fair imo.

MCMancub · April 2015

It won't last. Regardless of what principles apply, if new players (not even new players but any players who don't eat, sleep, and drink ESO) are struggling to keep up with the "all-day-every-day" players and are in turn leaving the game as a result, ZOS will change the system. It has nothing to do with what's right or wrong. It has to do with numbers.

I personally think you should be rewarded for your efforts, but I can easily see why it's a bad system in a video game.