There's a lot of unsubstantiated hyperbole going about as to store methods, but in reality not one of the offerings in the Crown Store are actually "Pay to Win" as there's no guaranteed win regardless of the items you acquire from the Crown Store.

That said, there may be a slight advantage with buffs and so forth offered by potions and food- but unless you can point out a particular item being offered and how it gives a "Pay to Win" advantage, I'll have to dismiss it as more propaganda.

You may dislike that others can afford or want to pay for "extra things"- but that doesn't equate to "Pay to Win" in any sense of the term.

You opened a public thread for discussion. This means you're open to feedback by others. It's not about "argument", it's about stating opinions and facts. If you don't want to hear (see) what others have to say- don't open a public thread for people to comment on.

Now in regard to your last sentence- I see nothing in the way of "equal to or surpasses the best gear/stats/level available in game." in any of the items being offered in the Crown Store. This is exactly what I stated in my post- and you can continue to deflect/avoid with your responses- or you can provide exact detail on what you mean by telling us all which item(s) do so and how- it's really simple. Otherwise, you'll have to accept that your statement is based on less than fact, and it will be dismissed as such.

My opinion is that Pay to Win constitutes getting a statistical advantage in combat or economics over other players. This would include temporary boosts to stats, potions which do similar, or mechanics which ease gameplay considerably.

P2W often is related to horses that go faster, potions that make you stronger, and armor/gear that gives you more oomph. As of the time of me writing this, no such thing exists in the crown store which is not equal or inferior to something already in the game.

One way a game can avoid the P2W mechanic is to allow any item which can be bought with real cash, also be reasonably achievable in-game through regular gameplay. The term 'reasonable' is the crux here, as my experiences with games like Planetside 2 left me feeling anything but reasonable.

Motiffs are the only thing I feel the crown store has that can come close to causing a P2W scenario, and that's in the obscure gameplay of crafters and merchandising in-game items. It *could* give one crafter an advantage over another if that crafter has motiffs the other does not. In EvE Online, with a vibrant player economy, such an advantage WOULD be gamebreaking. But in ESO, it's only a mild hiccup, as those items are still fairly cheap. As someone who's farmed the heck out of multiple load zones, they are also fairly easy to accomplish with a little work (except Dwemer and Imperial).

In the instance of Imperial, it was alreay pay-walled due to the Imperial edition game ... of which I own. And Dwemer? Yeah, I'll be buying it myself, probably from the Crown store.

In APB there are p2w items. Items that are rly strong (Easy to win with) that Can only be bought with irl money.
Cosmetics and the such are not...

Rial wrote: »

Depending on their interests, different people have different definitions of what constitutes Pay To Win to them, though I think we can all agree that getting very good gear that isn't otherwise available (or only through enormous effort) is Pay To Win.

Now, I see myself as a collector and a completionist. I like to get all the pets, all the mounts, and whatever the game in question has to offer. I greatly prefer to completel my collections by actually playing the game, be it doing quests, difficult achievements, grinds or random drops from some boss. Buying pets/mounts/whatever for money doesn't engage me in the game, so every singe thing exclusive to the shop is kind of a missed opportunity for giving me personally something to do in the game, but in a Buy To Play game i don't mind it all that much as long as there's enough to get by playing the game.

And that's where ESO falls flat for now. Mounts are either bought with gold (no reputation grind or quest line to be done beforehand) or for real money (no way of getting them by playing the game). There is one pet available through gameplay. That's not all that much. It certainly isn't enough for me, not when compared to the multitude and diversity of the pets and mounts offered in the cash shop.

Therefore I personally would say that the "cosmetics" situation is, if not quite literally Pay To Win, a kind of Pay To Win to a less central playstyle.

Mounts that can be acquired by gold = can be acquired by playing the game. You get gold by playing the game, no? Pets are a different story- but again, they have no direct affect on gameplay- just aesthetics.

Pay to Win, IMO, constitutes a direct affect on gameplay in some form or fashion outside of aesthetics.

He was stating that if you like to collect mounts and pets then THAT aspect could be considered P2W because there is no challenge or obstacle directly associated with obtaining them. It's a loose analogy but I see what he is getting at. No sense of accomplishment or achievement for obtaining a mount or pet (unless they were loyalty rewards).

@Sylveria_Relden I think where we miss-communicated and Rial's example with pets and mounts kinda shows what I'm talking about, is that everyone has the right to their own definition of p2w, depending on where their priorities lay. Not everyone who plays is a hardcore pvper or competitive pve player. So assuming that there will always be someone who considers something p2w, then what amount of p2w are we willing to tolerate? Do we take everyone into consideration, only the average middle players, or the top elite competitive players?

One player may consider exp potions p2w, because of their particular gaming philosophy and they'd be right. Another player may not consider exp potions to be p2w because it doesn't have the same impact on their gaming philosophy and they'd be right too. It's only paying to win, if what you're paying for helps you achieve a goal that you consider a form of winning, which can only be determined on a case by case basis.

In this instance, the point is, it's not important if you think exp potions are p2w or not, just whether or not you think they'd be overall a good or bad thing for the game.

Imperial passives are really the only thing remotely close to pay to win, making the Imperial Edition one of the actual few arguable P2W items created for the game.

If the developers turned all of the ground to lava, and charged $200 in the crown store for boots that let you walk on lava - that's P2W. P2W is any time a microtransaction intentionally alters an otherwise unalterable game mechanic.

Other examples would be crown-exclusive levitation potions, flying mounts, and lethal PVP poison darts.

Pay to win.

Pay: Give money for something.

In exchange for?

Win: Achieving a goal in a competitive event where many seek to obtain the same.

But then the next question arises:

Achieve a goal when?

The answer is: immediately or as quickly as possible.

The game objectives can be achieved by all users without spending extra money, the real problem is how fast one can reach them.

The use real money to buy convenience items all they do is reduce the time to get something, does not mean that over time non-payers can not get.

So I think that the concept of pay to win is wrong because one does not pay to win (because eventually everyone wins) it pays to do it faster.

What is offered for money is not a victory, is the advantage of reach of faster and convenient way.

That's why I call it:

Pay to win NOW

The problem that arises with this is that players who do not want to pay and play today can not tolerate the idea that anyone achieve victory before them with money.

Because it is clear that these players over time (without spending money) also succeed in achieving victory because besides the contents remain the community is renewed and people will always exist in worse conditions.

It boils down to the above, a sector of the gaming community interested in the competitive aspect not want the money to snatch them out of hand the possibility of be current winners, in the present.

Then we come to a crossroads, as there is currently a benefit for those who continue paying the subscription.

These users receive bonus experience and gold collection, this is similar to the examples given in other reviews, a benefit that accelerates the process of acquiring economic resources and expertise to benefit the race to be the first to reach a goal.

These users are the only ones to win something? No, everyone wins with time, only these users do before, the key is not in the point of arrival, but along the way.

Extremely competitive users, should not even consider playing a hybrid video game between free access and membership .

If you are playing and accept reality (who pay get benefits that accelerate the process of progression) then they should not complain about how you get to the store.

This is the reality.

As already mentioned in other forum topics, in an MMORPG seek to be strict when talking about competitiveness is absurd.

The main MMORPG when they organize competitive events category do with all users locally and each user is given the complete equipment of choice to be used for the confrontation eliminating any advantage that may occur over time.

In MOBA all players start from scratch and progress in the game.

In an online MMORPG players exist with years of permanence and there are newcomers, there is not the slightest and remote possibility of establishing a competitive environment in these conditions where the time factor and progression rates are the indisputable kings.

TD5160_ESO wrote: »

Betahkiin wrote: »

Pay to win.

Pay: Give money for something.

In exchange for?

Win: Achieving a goal in a competitive event where many seek to obtain the same.

But then the next question arises:

Achieve a goal when?

The answer is: immediately or as quickly as possible.

The game objectives can be achieved by all users without spending extra money, the real problem is how fast one can reach them.

The use real money to buy convenience items all they do is reduce the time to get something, does not mean that over time non-payers can not get.

So I think that the concept of pay to win is wrong because one does not pay to win (because eventually everyone wins) it pays to do it faster.

What is offered for money is not a victory, is the advantage of reach of faster and convenient way.

That's why I call it:

Pay to win NOW

The problem that arises with this is that players who do not want to pay and play today can not tolerate the idea that anyone achieve victory before them with money.

Because it is clear that these players over time (without spending money) also succeed in achieving victory because besides the contents remain the community is renewed and people will always exist in worse conditions.

It boils down to the above, a sector of the gaming community interested in the competitive aspect not want the money to snatch them out of hand the possibility of be current winners, in the present.

Then we come to a crossroads, as there is currently a benefit for those who continue paying the subscription.

These users receive bonus experience and gold collection, this is similar to the examples given in other reviews, a benefit that accelerates the process of acquiring economic resources and expertise to benefit the race to be the first to reach a goal.

These users are the only ones to win something? No, everyone wins with time, only these users do before, the key is not in the point of arrival, but along the way.

Extremely competitive users, should not even consider playing a hybrid video game between free access and membership .

If you are playing and accept reality (who pay get benefits that accelerate the process of progression) then they should not complain about how you get to the store.

This is the reality.

As already mentioned in other forum topics, in an MMORPG seek to be strict when talking about competitiveness is absurd.

The main MMORPG when they organize competitive events category do with all users locally and each user is given the complete equipment of choice to be used for the confrontation eliminating any advantage that may occur over time.

In MOBA all players start from scratch and progress in the game.

In an online MMORPG players exist with years of permanence and there are newcomers, there is not the slightest and remote possibility of establishing a competitive environment in these conditions where the time factor and progression rates are the indisputable kings.

very very well put

Thank you very much

It's just a truth that many refuse to see when they decide to claim.

No powerful gear in the crown store. NONE.

I can handle motifs and maybe even dyes if i take a few weeks to deal with it, but all the powerful gear needs to remain OUT of the crown store.

Betahkiin wrote: »

In an online MMORPG players exist with years of permanence and there are newcomers, there is not the slightest and remote possibility of establishing a competitive environment in these conditions where the time factor and progression rates are the indisputable kings.

While I pretty much agree with your entire post, I think this is probably the best part.

A lot of the discussions I've had with people strongly opposed to time saving luxuries being offered for cash have pointed to this. A lot of players who have spent more time playing, don't want new players to be able to catch up to them. A lot of players who have been riding the top, don't want to be surpassed by paying players or feel forced to pay to keep up. This is especially noticeable with the more competitive players. As for the more casual players, they just want to be able to pay a few bucks so that their 2 hours a day that they can play are maximized and they don't fall too far behind the players with more time. Newcomers just want to be able to catch up and get into the fray as quickly as possible, without being at a distinct disadvantage.

I think depending on how a service is used, would determine how to define it.
A new player spending cash to catch up to a long term player is paying to not lose.
A long term player who is paying cash to further his advantage over other players is basically paying to win.
A casual player who pays cash to be able to spend more time doing the activities they enjoy in game, while minimizing time they spend doing less enjoyable activities, without falling behind are paying to enjoy the game more.

So if a service would improve the game for new and casual players, should it be denied because of the long term competitive players who would in a sense abuse it?

If OP want to know what P2W you should basically so call "free" game on mobil phone those game are P2W. P2W to me is game where you buy thing that will help out to get ahead like you buy for real money :

Resource, ingame money, boots and so on thing that make easy complete thing like when you can complete a build by pay ingame money which you have build real money.

Most mobil phone game is P2W atlest them how is so call "Free" atm nothing in Crown Store is P2W and the Motifs is not P2W for those item will have same stats that any other carft item the just look different.