The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - Unlimited Grinding Simulator

dietlime · April 2015

That's your title on SA Games (oh god J4G, smite me) - one of the largest gaming communities (for better or worse) on the internet. The "community" where "Let's Play" (unfortunately) took off, one of the oldest message boards out there and only to require a signup fee and strictly moderate it's members.

The popular games are on that page. The online multiplayer games worth playing, for whatever reason, end up on that page. There are others, but the cynical title shouldn't be ignored: the other threads cropping up in General here daily about the XP reward system and the state of player progressing needs to be addressed or it's going to kill the game.

I bought the game for PvP and so did many others. The CP system and difficult to acquire passives, such as the Undaunted line, should be enough time-investment advantage to set people apart, without gear locking players out of being effective. It isn't a good business strategy to require this much time investment just to reach a level of average (not stellar) effectiveness.

Here's the deal ZoS/Bethesda: leave it as-is and you'll make money on the short term selling F2P mode "potions" or the equivalent of "premium my lord the grind blows" time. Then your community will enter a phase of stable erosion where even dedicated players will eventually get bored, leave, and stop buying hats. New players will not replenish them if they perceive themselves to be at a significantly unfair disadvantage which they cannot overcome in a reasonable timespan. A lot of time spent ironing out systems will fall short of it's long-term earning potential.

Or you can, at the very least, unlock the existing gear sets so that players who can afford them anyway are able to get roughly the same base numbers without enduring v1-14 on their new characters and go play the unique and captivating PvP game that is there under all the stale bog-standard MMO you've layered on top. Players who have invested the time will still have everything they do, they'll still have an earned advantage, and there will still be a long-term grind to motivate your F2P "premium ticket" business model.

Choices made behind the scenes today, revealed over the next six months post-multiplatform release, will determine if people still talk about ESO in 2017. Those choices need to favor:

1.) Accessibility
2.) Replayability
3.) Challenge
4.) Customization

dietlime · April 2015

whoops

firstdecan · April 2015

Been playing since beta, I have for the most part stopped playing. I'm still checking my crafting mails a few times a week, and I check out this forum in the hopes that there will be a magic fix for Cyrodiil. Most of my time is spent on another game now, although I still play this one from time to time.

As you have mentioned, the game has become an "unlimited grind." But what did you expect when the game went f2p? ZoS doesn't seem committed to the longterm longevity of the game anymore, everything they're doing just seems like a short term cash grab to get what they can while they can. The b2p move (which is just f2p with an initial purchase) is a short term capitalization move, probably designed to increase platform sales (since most PC players interested in the game already bought it). After the influx of console players from initial sales, they'll drop prices 2-3 times and then go completely f2p (to get more people playing and possible interested in the cash shop). By then there will be significant "convenience items" designed to shortcut the "unlimited grind," which could potentially have me playing a bit more. Ultimately, the game has jumped the shark, and will probably never live up to the potential many players (including myself) had hoped for.

Elijah_Crow · April 2015

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

Gidorick · April 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

How? The XP required for the next CP will remain the same, won't it?

asteldian · April 2015

And once CP disparity gets too much then Battle Spirit will likely boost your char to having a load.
Outside of PvP, champ points are a grind only for the extreme hardcore, for eveyone else you just get on with what you enjoy and spend them when you get them. The grind mentality is a player mindset issue.

Onebitsoul · April 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

How? The XP required for the next CP will remain the same, won't it?

As far as I know, the XP for one CP is 400k, correct? You get it much faster than actual levels, too. It doesn't take long to get one CP.

golfer.dub17_ESO · April 2015

Not really a fair title.

Yes, grinding is annoying, but I'm sure there are way grindier games out there.

I bought the game for PvP and so did many others. The CP system and difficult to acquire passives, such as the Undaunted line, should be enough time-investment advantage to set people apart, without gear locking players out of being effective. It isn't a good business strategy to require this much time investment just to reach a level of average (not stellar) effectiveness.

That's fair.

A lot of people say you pretty much need all gold gear for PvP, but that costs a ton of money to make.

BloodStorm · April 2015

Pvp can be fun but ES games are naturally PVE immersion games. Co-op makes it more fun also. The grind can be tough but worth it if future content delivers. I do look forward to a player bounty type of pvp eventually. I prefer open world pvp because it brings realism and immersion. Cyrodill does not give off that vibe for me. I would love to be in the cold mountains of skyrim or the coasts of summerset running from players trying to kill me for a reward, haha. I truly believe player bounties would make this game one of the top games and mmo's for pc and console. The potential for ESO is endless. Hopefully imperial city will bring really fun pvp and maybe be a fun grind, haha.

Gidorick · April 2015

Onebitsoul wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

How? The XP required for the next CP will remain the same, won't it?

As far as I know, the XP for one CP is 400k, correct? You get it much faster than actual levels, too. It doesn't take long to get one CP.

So if one Vet Rank is 1,000,000 XP and 1 CP is 400K, you get 2.5 CPs per vet rank... per 1 million XP. This will not change, so post 50 progression will not change. Right? Do vet Ranks afford a player any additional benefit other than simply making the number next to the shield by their name increase by 1?

Horrum · April 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Onebitsoul wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

How? The XP required for the next CP will remain the same, won't it?

As far as I know, the XP for one CP is 400k, correct? You get it much faster than actual levels, too. It doesn't take long to get one CP.

So if one Vet Rank is 1,000,000 XP and 1 CP is 400K, you get 2.5 CPs per vet rank... per 1 million XP. This will not change, so post 50 progression will not change. Right? Do vet Ranks afford a player any additional benefit other than simply making the number next to the shield by their name increase by 1?

Yes. You earn additional attribute points and almost all stats on gear (incl. set bonuses) are higher per vet level (gear level). Enchantments, food and drinks are also gated by levels. Summed up, the difference between a vet 1 and a vet 14 is considerable.

Edit: Terrible phrasing lol

dietlime · April 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

Onebitsoul wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

How? The XP required for the next CP will remain the same, won't it?

As far as I know, the XP for one CP is 400k, correct? You get it much faster than actual levels, too. It doesn't take long to get one CP.

So if one Vet Rank is 1,000,000 XP and 1 CP is 400K, you get 2.5 CPs per vet rank... per 1 million XP. This will not change, so post 50 progression will not change. Right? Do vet Ranks afford a player any additional benefit other than simply making the number next to the shield by their name increase by 1?

More accurately you get 1CP per day you play, minimum; since it's almost inevitable you'll gain 100,000 points in a session.

I don't have any problem with the CP system, since there's a sort of baseline where you become competitively viable, and there's also a threshold where diminishing returns kick in.

Most of those CP bonuses aren't super game-breaking, but not having access to set bonuses breaks your ability to do a reasonable amount of damage since that's where all your base stat progression goes post-50.

dietlime · April 2015

dietlime wrote: »

A lot of people say you pretty much need all gold gear for PvP, but that costs a ton of money to make.

The thing is that I could afford it right now, but XP gains are so abysmal it will currently be weeks before I can equip most of it. That is backwards.

Sallington · April 2015

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

They haven't said that the Vet level change is canceled....but I wouldn't exactly call it "planned". Brainstormed maybe, at best.

dietlime · April 2015

Sallington wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

They haven't said that the Vet level change is canceled....but I wouldn't exactly call it "planned". Brainstormed maybe, at best.

Actually I saw a post just yesterday confirming it's in the works.

Rook_Master · April 2015

People that say the CP passives are inconsequential clearly haven't looked at some of them, like reducing stamina costs by 80% after break free, as well as 1000 point damage shield every time you block, etc.

It will separate new players from old.

Sallington · April 2015

dietlime wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

They haven't said that the Vet level change is canceled....but I wouldn't exactly call it "planned". Brainstormed maybe, at best.

Actually I saw a post just yesterday confirming it's in the works.

Just like the imperial city and spellcrafting have "been in the works" for months and months and months now? They are really good at giving extremely vague statements on the forums.

Until they say, "This is the date of release for this update" then not much is reliable, judging by their track record.

dietlime · April 2015

Rook_Master wrote: »

People that say the CP passives are inconsequential clearly haven't looked at some of them, like reducing stamina costs by 80% after break free, as well as 1000 point damage shield every time you block, etc.

It will separate new players from old.

Okay, you're right. The thing is, even with those bonuses I can still crit you for a crippling or overwhelming amount of damage (considering other people may double-tap or triple-tap you at the same time) regardless, but not if my base stats are restricted.

reften · April 2015

what...you want a max level, so you can get to the max level and then quit? I don't get it...

dietlime · April 2015

Sallington wrote: »

dietlime wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

I think the removal of Vet levels which is still planned will address this.

They haven't said that the Vet level change is canceled....but I wouldn't exactly call it "planned". Brainstormed maybe, at best.

Actually I saw a post just yesterday confirming it's in the works.

Just like the imperial city and spellcrafting have "been in the works" for months and months and months now? They are really good at giving extremely vague statements on the forums.

You have an unrealistic expectations for the development progress from a software engineer's perspective.

1.) The game's in-house engine is less than two years old, and still needs core revision.
2.) The game is being ported to multiple platforms. They'll be holding major content changes until the game is stable on all platforms.

It's been a rough road for ESO, but you're unrealistic. Both the imperial city and spellcrafting were detailed but specifically noted to be long-term expansions to the game that wouldn't be coming any time soon.

Recently a person from Tamriel Foundry posted a comparison against FF:XIV A Realm Reborn.

FF:XIV A Realm Reborn. Released in 2010 on a new in-house proprietary engine, similarly relying on what you might call "next generation" MMO peer-to-peer networking, suffered from extreme technical issues of all varieties including latency issues, desynchs, hit registration issues, dropped connections, and instancing problems.

The initial PC release of Final Fantasy XIV received mixed to negative reviews, up to the point where it was considered one of the worst video games of all time, until the reboot removed it from the list. Complaints ranged from its essentially broken structure to its numerous bugs and glitches, leading to a consensus that the game was unfinished, if not essentially unplayable from a practical standpoint. It held a score of 49.33% on GameRankings[41] and 49/100 on Metacritic,[42] making it the lowest-scoring game of the series.

I was there. It was literally unplayable. We're talking two-second delays on any action. We're talking an average stable connection length in the realm of 20 minutes.

Three years later, the game was re-released on a "new engine" (cough, cough) with a bunch of new-ish systems and got favorable reviews.

Reviews for Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn have been generally positive. Aggregating review websites GameRankings and Metacritic gave the PlayStation 4 version 86.08% based on 24 reviews and 86/100 based on 35 reviews,[71][74] the PlayStation 3 version 78.71% based on 17 reviews and 78/100 based on 25 reviews[72][76] and the PC version 78.54% based on 13 reviews and 83/100 based on 32 reviews[73][75] Forbes contributor Daniel Tack awarded A Realm Reborn with a score of 9.5 out of 10, praising the game's content depth, graphics, and traditional Final Fantasy feel.[90] USgamer awarded A Realm Reborn with a score of 5 out of 5 stating, "Square Enix has pulled off the seemingly impossible: rescuing a disastrous flop of an online game without going free-to-play, and creating an incredibly addictive, satisfying experience for both MMO and Final Fantasy veterans in the process. A Realm Reborn is a triumph for Naoki Yoshida and his team."

So you people are comparing to:

1.) Games built on existing, stable technology (Wildstar)
2.) Games that failed for three years (coughs) before *** got fixed

So wake up, a year or two isn't a bad time-frame for a brand new piece of entertainment software of this scale to get ironed out.

We have two realms of concerns:

1.) Will they be able to make the game technically stable
2.) Will they be able to make the gameplay "balanced" enough to be fun

These are separate concerns. Six months is not a long time between content updates in any other genre. Games receiving monthly content updates aren't receiving monthly updates to their core mechanics or patches to improve their back-end, they're for all intents and purposes "complete" games.