We're here everyday, Dev's need to be too!

Huggernaut · April 2015

I hope this is the kick in the pants this dev team needs to push them out of their shells and come out and really interact with us on a personal level. There are multiple game studios that do this to great effect. You should learn from them. I understand this is your first foray into the big scary world of triple A MMOs. Which is all the more reason not to let yourself build up bad habits early on.

Players reading this, you guys and gals need to step up too. Show the devs that you need more interaction with them too!, besides the odd patch note or forum moderation post.

On to the real post....

So I was going through posts, and one of the comments from a dev made me stop for a second, they said "We're here all the time!, check the dev tracker"...so I did!

There are HUGE gaps, sometimes almost a month long. Most averaging 2 weeks or so though.

This is not acceptable. This is not how you build a community.

Also, a great deal of the responses are just dev replies to forum threads that have had a cleaning out ie "Too many hostile posts in this thread, we have deleted, blah blah blah". These replies don't even count in my eyes. As they are nothing more than forum moderation.

There needs to be real communication between the players and the devs in charge of ... everything. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we need a section on the forums for nothing but feedback & suggestions. Sure /feedback exists, but honestly there needs to be a place where players and devs alike can come and discuss things. A place they can return to after some amount of pondering upon the issues and make informed replies.

This should be a daily occurrence. Not a monthly one.

- The dev (or team) that is in charge of the crown store should be making weekly posts. Showcasing stuff that is added, stuff that is upcoming. You need to be running polls to find out how players are receiving new items that have been added to the store. How are they reacting to said items, why are they reacting that way (if negative), etc.

- Art dept members, can be coming to the forum to showcase new costumes, pet or mount skins, etc. This is an excellent way to hype up your community about patches still in the pipe. It also gives you a solid feel on what the community likes and dislikes. Saves you time and money down the road. Which is why we need a dev spoiler section on the forums, as I've suggested in the past.

- Gameplay mechanics devs should be here on a daily basis, without question. This team is arguably the most important. There are all sorts of things that can be iterated on a daily basis in regards to these systems. How a particular change (good or bad) has affected a class in pvp or dungeons for example. How certain classes might need updating, why this is, how this can happen, etc. There needs to be a place where hard data can be presented, refuted or accepted and tests continued.

- Map design team, also important. Have a boss fight in a cool looking locale, but all the fancy extras are actually hindering your ability to fight the boss properly? We need a place to tell you this and offer examples on how it can be fixed. Maybe your favorite locale has too much "immersion clutter" as I like to call it (tables, chairs, pots, bookcases, etc), again, there needs to be a 2 way street of communication about this as well.

- Events!, there needs to be some, even weekly or bi-weekly events. These are low cost / high reward systems that can easily be introduced to the game. By that I mean, they cost you (the studio) relatively nothing in regards to manpower, salary, etc, but gain you huge amounts traffic in game, player good will, possibly new players, which equals more cash streams, etc. These events don't need to be all that involved, they could be as simple as boosted weekends, increasing xp / gold / loot drop rates. They can be as complex and involved as you want really. More you put into it, the more you generally get out of them though.

- Lore & Rp fans, don't think I've forgotten you either!. I am sure there are oodles of players that would love to discuss the story so far, and where it's heading in the future with the writers that are responsible for this facet of the game. I'm sure they have questions in regards to RP that could use clearing up, and I'm most definitely sure they have suggestions on things they would like to see in the future as well as stuff they have disliked in the past.

This can go on and on.

The point is, that no matter what your job is, there are players that want to talk to you. Players that NEED to talk to you and by the extension, there needs to be devs that NEED to talk to the players as well. Without everyone, this doesn't work.

Cheers.

Thaizo · April 2015

Great post (and ideas) Huggernaut. I can agree with all of that.

SHADOW2KK · April 2015

Have to agree OP, very well said on all points.

grimsfield · April 2015

who wants to bet a dev doesn't comment on this topic?

Huggernaut · April 2015

Thanks for the kind replies!

I'm not trying to bash, or hate, or fanboi, or anything else negative. I've just seen what effect a truly active dev team has on it's community and it's a wonderful thing to behold. I only want to see those benefits come here to a game I enjoy playing, so I can continue to play it for as long as possible.

Maybe I'm just being selfish

As for the dev's not replying, I really hope they do. Something I've done on another site, was to make a list, broken down by dept. with all the @ names for the various devs so people could tag them on the forums for specific issues, and they would see it.

Any chance someone has a list like that here already? and if not, perhaps people could reply below with the @ZOS_ handle of any dev's they know for sure what their specific job / role is.

That way we can get them involved in this thread too, which is sort of the point of the whole thing, right?

Stamden · April 2015

So many great games that never were because the developers didn't communicate with players. There are some good ideas in this forum ZoS, listen to them!

Just to summarize some of them in the past month or so:

-Alliance War rank account wide
-Character name change in Store
-Buffing some of the underwelming races
-Dying weapon/shield
-Nerfing Sorcs (particularly shield stacking and bolt escape)
-Templar skills broken

grimsfield · April 2015

Huggernaut wrote: »

Thanks for the kind replies!

As for the dev's not replying, I really hope they do.

I hope they do too. All we all really want is for this game to get better and for it to seem like the devs actually care. A little communication goes a long way in that regard.

xMovingTarget · April 2015

Devs firstly very rarely write in this forum anyways.

Greens are 99% community manager or forum mods. Call it staff. That fits way more.

Obscure · April 2015

Huggernaut wrote: »

-snip-
This is not acceptable. This is not how you build a community.
-snip-
Cheers.

QFT.

Typically developer interaction with the community is directed, scripted, and measured, or not given at all. Dev's should be here not representing themselves as Dev's nor indicating that they are Devs, but simply as fans who play ESO.

The "we're in this together" vibe should be prevalent in a game's official forum. Instead the general vibe here is "I like ESO, it could be made better, but just plain ZOS sucks ass."

The very name Zenimax elicits zero positive reactions among my circles of friends and colleagues...well that's not entirely true, we do get a good laugh in at their expense from time to time.

Anyhow, @Huggernaut , preach on bro!

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2015

While I think communication could be better you have to understand they are at work. They cant spend times on the forums they are needed to do their jobs. When they arent at work I dont blame them for not posting. When I get off work I dont think about work again until the next day when I show up.

Rune_Relic · April 2015

I think there maybe a few reasons that I can think of that blocks this:

1. all comment has to sanctioned by heads of staff and only authorised information may be leaked.
2. ZOS prefer to keep control over content direction rather than customer led.
3. ZOS feel customers prefer secrets/surprises to mutual thinktank suggestions.
4. ZOS doesnt want to risk customers getting the idea something will happen instead of might happen...soon[tm]

In other words.....its ZOS game and not the players. Anything the player offers is a suggestion and nothing more [with all rights reserved for ZOS future use].

What you are asking for is a player/ZOS led joint design team.
Players say what they really want.
ZOS decides what can and cant be done.

I would love to have that kind of Player DEV synergy going on.
That way ZOS doesnt waste an immense amount of resources to create something nobody wanted and then have to spend the same time again redoing everything they did.

But then they would be creating the players game.....not ZOS game.

/shrugs. They are footing the bill....we are just the ones paying/playing/testing it

EJRose83 · April 2015

I would rather the devs focus on the game, rather than spending all of their time here.

grimsfield · April 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

While I think communication could be better you have to understand they are at work. They cant spend times on the forums they are needed to do their jobs. When they arent at work I dont blame them for not posting. When I get off work I dont think about work again until the next day when I show up.

This is an excuse, and its not valid. I work at a game studio too, working on an MMO, but we have devs that are very responsive to forum posters. Looking at our forums vs these forums is night and day. There is very little negativity on our forums. Here, it's all over the place. The devs here clearly do not listen or care to listen right now, and its unfortunate for everyone involved.

It doesn't take many posts a day for the community to feel involved and for the devs to get a sense of how the players feel. Its extremely valuable feedback and I doubt very highly its going to blow up production budgets.

Also, its not like the whole dev team needs to comment every day. Get 5 to 10 semi vocal devs commenting every so often when they're not slammed with deadlines (which, unless production is very badly managed, they shouldn't be; working on a released MMO) and that would do the trick.

Robbmrp · April 2015

EJRose83 wrote: »

I would rather the devs focus on the game, rather than spending all of their time here.

They don't need to be on here constantly. They need to make a presence though and talk to the community about their game. Not just pop in and remove a bad post here or there. Just as the OP stated, that's not going to work.

Elsonso · April 2015

I have been saying this for almost a year now.

It is getting better, though.

Zheg · April 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

While I think communication could be better you have to understand they are at work. They cant spend times on the forums they are needed to do their jobs. When they arent at work I dont blame them for not posting. When I get off work I dont think about work again until the next day when I show up.

The problem is that a lot of our threads are in fact read by ZOS devs and/or the ZOS community managers, but they aren't necessarily commented on. If I had to take a wild guess (and I have to, because ZOS is a mystery sometimes), I'd guess that devs don't want the community managers talking about certain topics at all/yet. If people like Gina and Jessica don't have the go-ahead to give official responses yet, then they aren't able to reply.

I'd much rather hear, "so and so is delayed," or "we realize there's a lot of negative feedback on X, but we're taking our time to make sure we get the fix right." But unfortunately, ZOS (devs?) seem to think keeping quiet on topics like broken craglorn and XP in general for weeks on end is a good approach.

Jules · April 2015

Very true OP. This community of players is thriving on its own, sure, but more communication from Zos would make a world of difference. Players are constantly trying, testing, reporting and too often their discoveries fall on deaf ears.

There is an entire other side to this story that we hardly hear. We get intermittent reports from them, but usually these have little substance and sound something like "we are aware of this and working on it". I know it must be exhausting to listen to thousands of complaints from players all day. But Zos needs to stop seeing it as working against us or working for us. Work with us. We all want the same thing: for this game to succeed.

Lord_Kreegan · April 2015

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I think there maybe a few reasons that I can think of that blocks this:

1. all comment has to sanctioned by heads of staff and only authorised information may be leaked.
2. ZOS prefer to keep control over content rather than customer led.
3. ZOS feel customers prefer secrets/surprises to thinktank suggestions.
4. ZOS doesnt want to risk customers getting the idea something will happen instead of might happen...soon[tm]

<--SNIP-->

This x1000.

Not what people want to hear, but this is the right way to do development. Developers have to adhere to a vision/plan that was laid out a long time before players ever got to touch the game. If they don't do that, the game turns out to be a badly inconsistent mess.

Sorry, folks, but you are not developers. You don't know what goes into development. You may think you have grand ideas, but the reality is that development is a long drawn out process of dueling spreadsheets and algorithm simulations, late nights drinking gallons of coffee and running to the little boys' room or little girls' room (gender appropriate, preferably), conference room discussions every time you turn around and drawings plastered all over the walls to the point you can't even see the wall paper, sticky notes everywhere... and lots of short tempers.

Nothing is done on a whim... but that is what comes out of forums and players with "bright ideas" who don't have a clue how dfficult it will be to implement their bright ideas.

If you really do have a bright idea and present it in an understandable and well formulated manner (never happens, BTW), most likely it will be considered and will be analyzed, fleshed out, discussed, and maybe even find its way into the game at some point in time... six months to a year later.

But, sorry to pop your bubble, you're not in charge.

Your $15/month -- if you're a subscriber -- doesn't come close in terms of importance to the $350M put up by investors and the long term business plans of the company.

Get a grip. Stifle the ego.

Comment in the forums as you see fit, but don't expect developer responses. File /bug reports when you encounter a bug. File /feedback reports when you've got a gripe. But never presume you're the CEO of Zenimax. You're not.

liquid_wolf · April 2015

Developer responses are nice.

Not required... that is what the Customer Support crew is supposed to do. I'd like more information/announcements from developers.

Their ESO Live videos are nice, though.

WhimsyDragon · April 2015

Lack of comments from developers doesn't mean that they are not seeing your feedback.

Huggernaut · April 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

While I think communication could be better you have to understand they are at work. They cant spend times on the forums they are needed to do their jobs. When they arent at work I dont blame them for not posting. When I get off work I dont think about work again until the next day when I show up.

You are missing the point of the post, but it's a good point to bring up. Namely because I feel that a lot of dev's think the same way. Which is part of the problem really. The thing is, it should be seen as part of their job. Any company that wants to succeed in this market needs to foster that idea in their employees.

I also suggested a weekly twitch stream that lasted 30-45mins, that could have guest stars from the dev team come and answer questions that were taken on the forums during the week. So one week it's mechanics, the next week it's loot, then art, lore, etc. It's an excellent proving ground for hyping new & upcoming content. If you don't want to go the totally live route, youtube videos work just as well...provided it's in the same format as described above.

Lastly, just to clear something up. No one is asking the dev team to spend all of their time on the forums. No one is asking them to neglect their "real work", or anything else of that nature.

What we are asking for, is to keep their finger on the pulse of the game. To be excited, to be inspired, to be imaginative and creative, but mostly, to keep an open mind.

I think one of the worst things that anyone that creates anything can do to hurt their efforts, is to create more distance between themselves & what they create and those who consume what they create. This is a symbiotic relationship we are in. The company wants to make money, no one has illusions about that, however, showing some genuine interest goes a long way to increasing your bottom line.

Like the cheesy line says,

Help us, help you.

Cheers.

Jules · April 2015

Huggernaut wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

While I think communication could be better you have to understand they are at work. They cant spend times on the forums they are needed to do their jobs. When they arent at work I dont blame them for not posting. When I get off work I dont think about work again until the next day when I show up.

You are missing the point of the post, but it's a good point to bring up. Namely because I feel that a lot of dev's think the same way. Which is part of the problem really. The thing is, it should be seen as part of their job. Any company that wants to succeed in this market needs to foster that idea in their employees.

I also suggested a weekly twitch stream that lasted 30-45mins, that could have guest stars from the dev team come and answer questions that were taken on the forums during the week. So one week it's mechanics, the next week it's loot, then art, lore, etc. It's an excellent proving ground for hyping new & upcoming content. If you don't want to go the totally live route, youtube videos work just as well...provided it's in the same format as described above.

Lastly, just to clear something up. No one is asking the dev team to spend all of their time on the forums. No one is asking them to neglect their "real work", or anything else of that nature.

What we are asking for, is to keep their finger on the pulse of the game. To be excited, to be inspired, to be imaginative and creative, but mostly, to keep an open mind.

I think one of the worst things that anyone that creates anything can do to hurt their efforts, is to create more distance between themselves & what they create and those who consume what they create. This is a symbiotic relationship we are in. The company wants to make money, no one has illusions about that, however, showing some genuine interest goes a long way to increasing your bottom line.

Like the cheesy line says,

Help us, help you.

Cheers.

QFT. Very well said.

Huggernaut · April 2015

Adoryn wrote: »

While I understand your desire for more communication directly from developers, I don't think your extensive expectations are realistic.

I challenge anyone who feels this way, to go and visit the Marvel Heroes forum. I won't link it, but I'm sure you can google it.
Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE in that dev team responds on the forums. From the tippy top guy, all the way down, with some dev interaction daily. These guys work harder than anyone I've ever seen at being true parts of their community. They should really start a side business on educating other studios on how to deal with their community. I find them that impressive.

I'm not trying to name drop, or advertise, or anything else like that. My only point being, That in my opinion, They happen to be the gold star standard that we currently have for dev interaction in an online game. There are other great examples of course though, the guys over at Turtle Rock really care and it shows. They are crazy active within their community. Likewise for the devs of Warframe, and I'm sure there are many many more examples, the point is, there doesn't need to be this great divide between the creators and the consumers.

In reality, there needs to be very little space at all.

Of course, there are things that need to be kept secret. Specifics can't always be given. Time frames have to be adjusted, etc. It's all about managing expectations.

Currently we get little to nothing, in most regards. So expectations are always low, thus, you get poor overall results. Then, You get these large, short spikes when something is done, shared, interacted with, etc but then it just goes right back down, because it's neglected. The trick is to create lots of constant little spikes, every day. This keeps people interested. This keeps people invested. Not enough to spoil anything, but enough to show you care.

Cheers.

WhimsyDragon · April 2015

Huggernaut wrote: »

What we are asking for, is to keep their finger on the pulse of the game. To be excited, to be inspired, to be imaginative and creative, but mostly, to keep an open mind.

Are you sure that they aren't? Just because they aren't commenting doesn't mean they aren't poking around at all or taking it into account.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2015

I know they say they are listening and I know we often post things 20 times before any type of acknowledgement occurs.

I'd like to see from ZOS a weekly roundup post that summarizes the top 10 topics of the week

Also a lot more details on items that keep popping up in the threads....if there is no more info, say that and let ppl know when to expect more so we can cut down on asking.

Kelleton · April 2015

That is what community managers are for, the dev team should be..ya know developing.

qsnoopyjr · April 2015

grimsfield wrote: »

who wants to bet a dev doesn't comment on this topic?

For a second I thought you said, "Who wants to beta a dev"
As in who wants to beta being a developer LOL

I mean the community is pretty much all beta testers, makes sense they let you try beta testing what its like being a developer.

Ley · April 2015

If I was a dev I wouldn't come anywhere near these forums. To work so hard on a game as awesome as this one, only to be criticized about every aspect of your game every day on the same topics over and over. People making threads every day demanding zos to answer their questions, implement their suggestions, change game mechanics, fix bugs right now, demanding explanations about marketing decisions.

Game isn't perfect but find me a game that is, they're working on issues and they're pretty involved in the community. I don't expect them to come here every single day to satisfy players demanding zos attention.

Xjcon · April 2015

The last time I seen a dev post anything it was in regards to the experience gained after vet 14. People used that statement to chastise the crap out of them after something changed. Why would they want to risk something like that again?

jelliedsoup · April 2015

Devs don't decide on the changes.

There is not a unified we. Different people want different things.

Polls defining game play may help.

ZOS_GinaBruno · April 2015

Hey guys, wanted to pop in and address a few topics mentioned in this thread.

First, thanks for your suggestions and feedback. We care very deeply for this game, as you all do, and want to continually improve how we communicate with you all to keep you in the loop as much as we can.

That said, as we've stated before, the team is currently very focused on console launch and supporting the PC/Mac version. We're releasing the game on two new platforms in just a few weeks, and the studio is buzzing! It's definitely an exciting time, but also very busy.

Without getting into all the hairy details of day-to-day activities amongst different teams, we can tell you that we do gather your feedback and issues straight from the forums to bring to the developers' attention. There are many reports that go out, and please trust that we keep a close eye on all topics (even though we may not always respond in each thread).

One thing we'd like to continue doing, and perhaps even expand on, is getting your opinion about current and upcoming content or features. For example, we have a thread currently stickied asking what you'd like to see in the Crown Store. We've gotten some really good ideas from that thread, and it also gives us a good idea of the things you'd like to see (and what you don't necessarily want to see, too!) Yes, we have been reading it.

We absolutely want to work with you to continue strengthening the community; tell us what you'd like to see, and we'll do our best to make it happen. Within reason, of course.