Vampires - It's not enough

Balael · April 2015

Exactly I love being a vampire but really the only upsides are the Stealth movement (very very minor upside), the increased regen and the bat ultimate although this has been nerfed so many times now that it really isn't overly useful anymore.

All while having a 40% fire debuff and up to 75% less health regen, those are absolutely HUGE debuffs compared to the advantages.

Also @Raash 20% fire debuff is more than enough, a 40% permanent debuff in an MMO is just insane especially when 70% of the damage in this game is fire and we also take extremely increased damage from fighters guild skills, the advantages of being a vamp don't even get close to countering that monstrous debuff.

How does a vampire combat a DK that loads up on fire and fighters guild skills? Simple it's totally impossible to counter.

Father · April 2015

Its really sad that vampires kept getting nerfed since launch when what really made them powerful is the ultimate skill.
Its really sad that Zenimax found out later after all the nerfing :<

MornaBaine · April 2015

Father wrote: »

Its really sad that vampires kept getting nerfed since launch when what really made them powerful is the ultimate skill.
Its really sad that Zenimax found out later after all the nerfing :<

I have come to the conclusion that Zenimax has no flaming clue what terrible damage they have done to vampires...or they don't care. I refuse to cure my vampire but she is now completely unviable for PvP at Vet 8. MAYBE when she hits VR14 I'll try her out there again. But now I'm just leveling a DK and a Templar for PvP and won't bother with revisiting Cyro until they are VR 10.

Raash · April 2015

You know, I also run around in cyrodil without any vampire skills, and as you guys i die, Alot! Especially from fire damage. Usually it goes like this: fire ballista or treb hit me, woot I made it! Noo i didnt... The first dot kills me and its so annoying since i never seem to learn that and always gets happy that second before dot hits.

The few times I actually beat someone fair & square in a 1 v 1 moment set me flying to the moon in happiness.
Ive been a stamina using khajiit sorcerer with dual wield daggers (rests at 55% crit atm but will soon have 12% from CP) since day one and now when caps are gone I hit for 2-3.5k (unless I use heavy attack in stealth I can crit for about 8k) usually and my surge heals me for 60% of that each hit. I also use mageguild spell/curse degeneration something thing to give additional healing along with camo hunter and flawless dawnbreaker. My weapons are legendary daggers v12´s and my weapondamage says close to 1.8k...
In theory my build would be kind of good, in PVE I do ok tho, but in pvp? I get my ass handed to me because there is no way my self heals can outlast hits of 12k+ and all my recaps says MANY have these trucks to hit with (some arrows most often along with wrecking blow, huge hitting shards and what not). Most often my 23k health is gone in a few seconds.
Now I started to use 1h & shield to get reflect spell shield and suddently I can stay alive much longer and sometimes even kill players due to their own stuff backfire at them giving me a chance to hit and finnish them off.
Do I have much spell resistance? nope, armor? nope. Around 11k armor and 10k spell resist.

I could have caved in and gone the OP builds but I made my char out of careful planning and with a theme that I will stick to no matter what. Thats my choice and I am ok with that. I dont mind dying much since armor wont brake anyway, Its all for fun.
Thats the big downside for my char and the way I choosed to specc him. I cant demand that he shall be as good as everyone else since I choosed what to make him. MY char is not a class on its own. Neither are vampires. They are optional fluff.

And im sorry, tough luck they been toned down but you havto understand that when a single optional skill line, that should have been nothing more then a flavor/gimmick-thing wich additionally defines your char, is regarded more of a norm then being without it that something is very wrong. That was the case in PVP. Vampires held all cards in their favors.
I think that now vampires are more in line with how it should been from the start. Weaker yes, but with the downsides adjusted.

DK´s leathalness is a topic on its own and has little to do with vampires really. They are like war tanks atm, agree with that.

phreatophile · April 2015

Raash wrote: »

MY char is not a class on its own. Neither are vampires. They are optional fluff.

And im sorry, tough luck they been toned down but you havto understand that when a single optional skill line, that should have been nothing more then a flavor/gimmick-thing wich additionally defines your char, is regarded more of a norm then being without it that something is very wrong.

While I disagree that Vampirism, especially in an ES game, ought to be a more or less meaningless flavor/gimmick/fluff thing, you are correct it should never have been the norm. For some of us that enjoyed the previous titles, Vampirism is central to our characters, at least some of them. Apart from Batspam (symptom of pre 1.6 broken Ult generation) the power level was about right at the beginning, there just need to be more penalties to balance out that power level. If there had been lore appropriate downsides there would be fewer vampires and less problems.

It's the 'Because MMO' flawed thought process that made this mess, more 'Because MMO' will not fix it.

Raash · April 2015

phreatophile wrote: »

Raash wrote: »

MY char is not a class on its own. Neither are vampires. They are optional fluff.

And im sorry, tough luck they been toned down but you havto understand that when a single optional skill line, that should have been nothing more then a flavor/gimmick-thing wich additionally defines your char, is regarded more of a norm then being without it that something is very wrong.

While I disagree that Vampirism, especially in an ES game, ought to be a more or less meaningless flavor/gimmick/fluff thing, you are correct it should never have been the norm. For some of us that enjoyed the previous titles, Vampirism is central to our characters, at least some of them. Apart from Batspam (symptom of pre 1.6 broken Ult generation) the power level was about right at the beginning, there just need to be more penalties to balance out that power level. If there had been lore appropriate downsides there would be fewer vampires and less problems.

It's the 'Because MMO' flawed thought process that made this mess, more 'Because MMO' will not fix it.

I wouldnt oppose powerful vampires if they are equally weak to something but please take a look in the thread what is thrown around in here, one prime example is the plead for a reduction to 20% weakness to fire damage. i mean why even have a weakness attached to it at all if its a minor thing that can be ignored if you go a dunmer vampire with one fire ress enchant?
There must be "a bag takes rock takes scissors" thing going on in these kinds of games, sorry to say, since it must be some sort of balance somewhere between vamps & werewolves & neither.

Nebthet78 · April 2015

Question: Does any one else notice that it isn't just fire damage we are actually weak to? I have been watching my bar for a while now and I get hit with cold damage for the same amount if not higher sometimes. What the heck is with that??
I am thinking we are weak to ALL Elemental damage, not just fire, and ZOS hasn't been saying anything.

Vaerth · April 2015

Vampires need a minor buff and an active skill like Bat Travel (working like Bolt Escape) and to be rid of Mist Form, which is now useless.

phreatophile · April 2015

Raash wrote: »

phreatophile wrote: »

Raash wrote: »

MY char is not a class on its own. Neither are vampires. They are optional fluff.

And im sorry, tough luck they been toned down but you havto understand that when a single optional skill line, that should have been nothing more then a flavor/gimmick-thing wich additionally defines your char, is regarded more of a norm then being without it that something is very wrong.

While I disagree that Vampirism, especially in an ES game, ought to be a more or less meaningless flavor/gimmick/fluff thing, you are correct it should never have been the norm. For some of us that enjoyed the previous titles, Vampirism is central to our characters, at least some of them. Apart from Batspam (symptom of pre 1.6 broken Ult generation) the power level was about right at the beginning, there just need to be more penalties to balance out that power level. If there had been lore appropriate downsides there would be fewer vampires and less problems.

It's the 'Because MMO' flawed thought process that made this mess, more 'Because MMO' will not fix it.

I wouldnt oppose powerful vampires if they are equally weak to something but please take a look in the thread what is thrown around in here, one prime example is the plead for a reduction to 20% weakness to fire damage. i mean why even have a weakness attached to it at all if its a minor thing that can be ignored if you go a dunmer vampire with one fire ress enchant?
There must be "a bag takes rock takes scissors" thing going on in these kinds of games, sorry to say, since it must be some sort of balance somewhere between vamps & werewolves & neither.

Agreed. If it were up to me a vampire character would still take 50% extra fire damage down to 25% or 30% at stage 1 and have all regens as low as our health regen in daylight with all three regens boosted in the dark (with modifiers by stage).

"Paper says scissor is OP but rock is just fine" LOL. Actually a good comparison. The power needs offsets. Even in books and movies, a vampire pays a very heavy price for their power, otherwise it's not a very good story. Same is true here.

phreatophile · April 2015

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Question: Does any one else notice that it isn't just fire damage we are actually weak to? I have been watching my bar for a while now and I get hit with cold damage for the same amount if not higher sometimes. What the heck is with that??
I am thinking we are weak to ALL Elemental damage, not just fire, and ZOS hasn't been saying anything.

I'll have to check this out. We are supposed to be completely immune to cold damage. I understand why immune might be inappropriate in an MMO, but we should take less than full damage from cold and poison.

Balael · April 2015

With the current state of vampires being what it is, the debuff should be 20%.

Maybe if they give some meaningful buffs then sure keep the 40% fire damage and what like 300% damage from fighters guild skills?

But while all the skills are useless (batswarm is extremely situational), and the only advantages are 2 passives, you can't have such huge downsides.

You can only have these huge downsides if you also have some pretty impressive upsides to go with it otherwise it's just knee-capping your character. And that's exactly what vampirism is atm just a painful hindrance with no upsides what so ever.

Tell me this, what is so powerful about vampires that requires us to have a 40% fire weakness and take upwards of 300% extra damage from fighters guild?

Makkir · April 2015

I don't think vampires should be able to have stacks of garlic in their inventories. Just saying.

shane.roberts25b14_ESO · April 2015

Roechacca wrote: »

Changes are coming in 1.6 . WW template comparison isn't relevant imo . Their template is only available while transformed . That isn't a very long duration either .

They could always give vamps a "transform into vampire lord" ultimate like the ability from Skyrim. Honestly, who uses bat swarm anymore anyway? That would put vamp on a bit more level playing field with ww, and allow for more abilities/passives, which would only be available while transformed. Anyway, just a suggestion

phreatophile · April 2015

Balael wrote: »

With the current state of vampires being what it is, the debuff should be 20%.

Current state is boring and generic but not nearly as bad as you make it sound. 20%...maybe at stage 1

Maybe if they give some meaningful buffs then sure keep the 40% fire damage and what like 300% damage from fighters guild skills?

No meaningful buffs... sure, that 33% damage reduction from undeath is meaningless and the +10% increased regen for magicka and stamina: totally meaningless. That removal of sneak speed penalty is meaningless too. Be serious.

But while all the skills are useless (batswarm is extremely situational), and the only advantages are 2 passives, you can't have such huge downsides.

The actives are pretty useless with Batswarm being the exception. Since the Champion System dropped, I grind out a CP or two every day before doing fun stuff, so I've been comparing the ults available to me quite a lot recently. As a Nightblade, Swarm beats my class ultimates by a mile, the radius and mobility beat them all. Try the siphoning or assassination ults for situational.

You can only have these huge downsides if you also have some pretty impressive upsides to go with it otherwise it's just knee-capping your character. And that's exactly what vampirism is atm just a painful hindrance with no upsides what so ever.

Still an awful lot of us out there, perhaps you are missing something

Tell me this, what is so powerful about vampires that requires us to have a 40% fire weakness and take upwards of 300% extra damage from fighters guild?

Vampires need some work on stage timers, stage effects, and some better actives and something needs to be done about how totally boring their presentation is but to hear you tell it we are a total featherweights.

Molagent · April 2015

Lycanthropy:
-Loses ult for a transformation
-Specialized skills that can only be used during lycan form
-Passives are in transformation only (so says every skill calc and wolf I've come across.)
-Severely disabled in ranged combat of any kind.
-Great dps and stamina regen when transformed.
-Seems to be more desired on US Servers.

Vampires:
-Fire. It is not a friend to them.
-Health regen reduction? Okay..But you can always FEED. It doesn't make the spells so excessively costly that it can't be unreasonable.
-Vampires without a doubt have the possibly third best ult in the game. Devouring swarm outputs a massive amount of damage and always has, while each extra target it hits leeches over 1,000 hp every second.
-They also have Invigorating Drain which not only stuns for awhile but even drains health fairly heavily and regens it to yourself.
-You can open up an attack by feeding on humanoid targets which stuns them, heals you, and drains their hp.
-Boosting passives for stealth, magicka and stamina regeneration as well.
-Our mist form reduces a major amount of damage intake, 75%.

So with all that you complain about us being underpowered, or lacking of skills, etc. I would suggest leave the Coven, or learn to play with it better. People are willing to pay for bites even now, we will survive just fine. I do so excessively well, I know others do too having fed or not.

Dre4dwolfb14_ESO · April 2015

First off, the vampires should get a de-buff during the day and a buff during the night.
Warewolves should get a buff during a full moon phase / the buff should fade based on weather/cloud cover

A vampire should not get a bounty for feeding on NPC'S unless the NPC being attacked is being observed by another NPC
(makes it fun to feed)

A vampire should have strong regeneration (especially after feeding).
A vampire should start to get weaker if it doesn't feed.
You should only have to feed once every hour, 30 minutes is a bit annoying.

Molagent · April 2015

Dre4dwolfb14_ESO wrote: »

First off, the vampires should get a de-buff during the day and a buff during the night.
Warewolves should get a buff during a full moon phase / the buff should fade based on weather/cloud cover

A vampire should not get a bounty for feeding on NPC'S unless the NPC being attacked is being observed by another NPC
(makes it fun to feed)

A vampire should have strong regeneration (especially after feeding).
A vampire should start to get weaker if it doesn't feed.
You should only have to feed once every hour, 30 minutes is a bit annoying.

The only thing I agree with is vampire getting weaker without feeding. It shouldn't be the other way around, but bethesda for some reason decided such even though with everything we know of vampires today, none have ever been different. Something to be such? Dunno. No changing it.

Squishs · June 2015

There's too much vampire and werewolf running around, we need a culling.. give us some interesting skill trees!

oneshot_onekill · July 2015

Everyone seems to be completely different on this subject. Anyone have an opinion on a Templar?
I use both magic and stamina; stamina for bow/ one hand and shield, and magic for class skill line ( cc, kiting, snares, healing). I have and plan to have both stamina and magic skills in my bar.

I will be doing pve and pvp.

So vampire or werewolf?

Septimus_Magna · July 2015

Basically half of Cyrodiil already is a vamp, I cant see how reducing the fire weakness to 25% will balance this out.

I think we will see a lot more vamp sorcs because the health bar and shields will be effectively buffed and streak gets nerfed into Oblivion. The shields protect vamps from taking direct fire damage, effectively reducing the weakness to fire even more. With the increased damage of Prox Detonation the combo with Batwarm could be pretty strong.

Lazrael · July 2015

Wow. Is this thread really still alive?

Teiji · July 2015

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

With the increased damage of Prox Detonation the combo with Batwarm could be pretty strong.

I've never used the new PvP 'Bomb' skill; so in relation to that, how does it work? 1.8 sec channel time, then it only detonates when you're in range of a target instead of after 4 sec? So I could go into Clouding Swarm with a damage shield and effectively use Prox Detonation once or twice within Clouding Swarm?

Still, I'd really like some more vampire abilities as has been said for over a year now.

Bloodfiends have that conal aoe slash ability right? Well, why can't we get something like that? It would be like the Werewolf aoe claws, but channelled, conal instead of 360 aoe and castable whilst moving, like Biting Jabs.

NPCs also channel Hidden Blade but it's instant cast for players. The Bloodfiend aoe slash could be cool, it's nothing amazing but it's at least something, could have morphs similar to the werewolf aoe claws thing, defile & healing.

Any new Vampire abilities, I'd take a /DanceVampire at this point and be satisfied.

Warm regards, a Nosferatu IRL.

maczilla1781 · July 2015

I am just currious as to why vampires dont have a transformation? They had one in skyrim and it makes you feel like a equal to the ww but this game just seems to hate the vampires. No transformation, 3 skills and only 2 are somewhat usefull. It just feels like vampires suck in this game.

DragonBorn69 · July 2015

Very true vampires need reworked an remeber questlines where the vampire changed into a awesome gargoyle like form i wish we could do that.

Sithisvoid · July 2015

Only skill I use is bat Swarm with the devouring swarm morph. Why? The other two are utterly useless

CapnPhoton · July 2015

Sarru wrote: »

This game is already Twilight Online. I think both vamp and WW should be nerfed.

Yes this for sure...

I guess we can hope that all these people don't think its real, like when the movies were popular.

But put a little more reality in it, where they have to use a disguise when they go into town, and occasionally it doesn't work.

mrskinskull · July 2015

Vamps should weaken by daylight, just like in skyrim. The higher your vampire stage the worse your daytime penalty. There, problem solved.

MornaBaine · July 2015

mrskinskull wrote: »

Vamps should weaken by daylight, just like in skyrim. The higher your vampire stage the worse your daytime penalty. There, problem solved.

Agreed...BUT only if they make day and night of equal length, which I would really love for them to do anyway. Currently a full game day is aprox. 6 hours and 4 of those are daytime. I absolutely HATE that. Make them of equal length and I will totally be on board with the more traditional vamp weaknesses from the other ES games!

Snowgoons · July 2015

Sarru wrote: »

This game is already Twilight Online. I think both vamp and WW should be nerfed.

While I hit that agree button, I have to clarify I don't think they should be nerfed, I think maybe more options should be viable, personally I'd love to see werewolf get a huge buff, and then you just only turn into a werewolf for like 5-6 hours when its a full moon, other than that you can't turn, but when you turn it is definitely game changing.

As for vampire, i'd like to see them #1 be able to feed on a friend or a willing "slave" i say slave because i feel you should be able to link like a ring of mara with someone under you as a vampire. #2 They should be able to negate all negative effects during the night, maybe give them a big boost on new moons. #3 If you negate all negative effects during the night they should take their fire damage during the day, maybe even go as far as making them so strong during the night that they might randomly take 5% dmg or something while in direct sunlight, but allow them to use shade somehow/when indoors or in a cave whatever they are fine and maybe even get a boost?

I don't know about the vampire changes I suggest here as they seem wild and all over the place, but these are my ideas, and I really like the werewolf one, people shouldn't just be popping werewolf left and right, this should be something you discuss with other werewolves and you all "run" together on the night of a full moon.

EDIT:

@ZOS

Consider somehow allowing people to choose a more defined werewolf instead of just 5 set skills, have a way to choose between Offensive, Defensive, Support.

Offensive obviously is pretty easy to guess all damage and stuff skills, Defensive has crowd controlling growls and crap and maybe a damage shield, Support has group heal howl skill maybe even let them "scratch" a fellow teammate to give that werewolf 10% more damage or something through anger, I don't know but really the possibilities are endless....

Mojmir · July 2015

I think vamps and werewolves are fine how they are, I look at them as almost like another race but they get some skills along with passives. They shouldn't be treated as a class. If you want more then penalties should apply.