Why PVP should never be a significant factor in character progression in an MMO

Samadhi · April 2015

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

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I consider my thesis quite intact after these few challenges. PVP should not be a major source of character progression because the AP gained in PVP can be player controlled on both sides of the fight whereas XP and loot in PVP are not. Zenimax made a poor decision with their new skill placement and gear balance changes for this reason. I believe that in the short run it may boost PVP numbers but that rewarding bad behavior always has the long term effect of decreasing interest in the game.
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Samadhi wrote: »

Make all the Alliance War skills only function in Cyrodiil.

Allows the skills to provide incentive and progression for PvP players without impacting PvE gameplay.

PvP players deserve meaningful progression and character development for their playstyle just as much as anyone else.

My characters may spend the majority of their time in Cyrodiil, but that is because the stories that I am role playing for them are intrinsically tied to the impact that the Three Banners War is having on Tamriel.

Thoroughly enjoy PvP, but have no interest in it being an isolated interaction with no meaningful gameplay impact -- if that was my desire, would go play a MOBA instead where my character is thrown away after every match.

If non-PvP players are going to complain that my character is earning progression and development through living out his or her story in the world of Tamriel, then the obvious solution is to simply remove functionality of Alliance War skills from PvE areas. The skills were specifically designed around Cyrodiil gameplay and content anyway.

UrQuan · April 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

If non-PvP players are going to complain that my character is earning progression and development through living out his or her story in the world of Tamriel, then the obvious solution is to simply remove functionality of Alliance War skills from PvE areas. The skills were specifically designed around Cyrodiil gameplay and content anyway.

Of course, if you do that then you should logically also remove functionality of Undaunted skills from PvP areas, as those were specifically designed around PvE gameplay and content anyway (specifically group dungeons).

I'm not necessarily advocating that, but it seems that if we shouldn't force PvE players to go and PvP just to get some PvP skills that they can use in PvE, then we likewise shouldn't force PvP players to go and PvE just to get some PvE skills that they can use in PvP.

Samadhi · April 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

If non-PvP players are going to complain that my character is earning progression and development through living out his or her story in the world of Tamriel, then the obvious solution is to simply remove functionality of Alliance War skills from PvE areas. The skills were specifically designed around Cyrodiil gameplay and content anyway.

Of course, if you do that then you should logically also remove functionality of Undaunted skills from PvP areas, as those were specifically designed around PvE gameplay and content anyway (specifically group dungeons).

I'm not necessarily advocating that, but it seems that if we shouldn't force PvE players to go and PvP just to get some PvP skills that they can use in PvE, then we likewise shouldn't force PvP players to go and PvE just to get some PvE skills that they can use in PvP.

Would be perfectly fine with doing so, if that is the necessary cost.
Personally never bothered with the Undaunted line due to not enjoying group PvE dungeons (mainly as a result of such content constantly triggering my anxiety issues) -- also never complained about the impact of the unique sets, skills, or passives, despite them being inaccessible to me.

It is less than ideal as a solution, and personally prefer the solution of simply ignoring the people who are complaining about either skill line's availability.

UrQuan · April 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

It is less than ideal as a solution, and personally prefer the solution of simply ignoring the people who are complaining about either skill line's availability.

That's actually my preferred solution too

I'm a PVE player. So I don't get access to some cool skills that are in the Alliance War trees. So what?

wrlifeboil · April 2015

sirston wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

It is a good thing PVE players never use broken skills or messed up mechanics to 'outright game the system'. Only those dirty pvpers would do something so cheap and dishonorable.

In before 'no way!'
In before 'he did it first!'
In before 'other stupid stuff!'

Just to be clear I have always thought having to PvP for pve stuff and pve for pvp stuff is silly. But to come up with a nice hefty post claiming pvpers cheat, and by extension imply that pve players don't, is down right silly.

says the part of the game where you could grind spider in craglorn and go from vet 1 to v14 in 3 days, Oh did I ruin your moment?

Don't forget anomalies. That's how I got my gimped magicka spec NB from VR1 to VR12 in four days. Never would have made it otherwise.

Garion · April 2015

PvE heroes are easy AP. I hope they don't change anything!

We have to do dailies to get the best two piece gear in the game and some of the best guild based passives available; therefore it makes perfect sense that there should be some PvP exclusive benefits to those who focus on end game PvP. As has been said, the magicka detonation is in fact not that useful in PvE (trash can still very easily be AoE'd down) and vigor was quite obviously introduced because of the QQ over the lack over an efficient stamina self heal. It serves no real purpose in end game PvE because you will have a healer whether you are doing a vet dungeon or a trial.

Your 'thesis' is little more than a QQ thread hidden under your eloquence. I'm forced into PvE in a number of ways. I am over it.

Oh and, by the way, if it is so easy to exploit AP - which is what you are indicating - then why don't you just do that? The reality is that it is not that easy at all. Most high ranked PvP players have got there legitimately. I don't necessarily agree with everyone's methods (zergblobs for instance) but the point is they have invested time and effort. It is completely wrong to insinuate they have got there by exploiting the system.

I would write more but I am on my mobile. I am quite sure however that ZOS will leave things as is, as anyone with a gram of sense can see through your flimsy arguments.

bosmern_ESO · April 2015

a PvPer has to PvE to get all the benefits from undaunted. And a PvEr has to PvP to get benefits from alliance war abilities. Thats how it should be.

If you want PvErs to not pvp and get pvp abilities, PvPers should get all the PvE abilities for free.

bloodenragedb14_ESO · April 2015

PvP and PvE are two different beasts. It is a failure on the devs part to continue to change and balance skills in both.

What needs to happen is when you enter cyrodiil, your skills change, when you leave cyrodiil, they change again. Alot of skills deemed 'op' are actually just fine in pve, (in all honesty they are fine in pvp too, but damned if people dont whine and *** about it anyway)

This will satisify the pve'ers and pvp'ers. on one hand the pvp'ers are getting the balance they whine about, and pve'ers can actually keep one build for more than a month

Dre4dwolfb14_ESO · April 2015

The problem with pvp is

You have one group of players that want to work hard and get an "edge" so they can enjoy pvp.

and

You have another group of players that will do everything in their power on the forums to steer the game in a direction where working hard to attain pvp power is not rewarded so that they can pretend to be on-par with a player who put in more time/thought into their progression.

Pretty much you have pvp players who want to "beat the game" and get to the pvp because its not fun killing mobs, mobs are just not challenging, pve content is not challenging....

But killing other players is challenging, as you never know what the other player can do/how their character is setup exactly.
The dynamic nature of fighting another player in spontaneous battle will always be more fun than killing a mob who pretty much does the exact same thing every time and then... dies and gives you xp so that you can level up and move on to the next stupid AI mob.

Its like one group of players wants to ban human vs human checkers, and they want to force everyone to play checkers against a computer from 1986, because they find defeating an easy computer enjoyable.

While the other player just wants to play checkers against . . . another human being. . . because thats the only way they might actually lose.

Its not fun to play for some people if you know the only possible outcome is for you to always win, everytime and "even if I die, ill just respawn right next to the mob that killed me and ill kill it this time because now I know EXACTLY what its going to do...."

^^

And as for people who enjoy the "lore" BS
How many times can you read a book before you toss it?

You know why ESO couldn't make enough $$$ off subs?
No PvP content.
People beat the game and quit.(read the book and shelved it).

timidobserver · April 2015

Oh look, something exists that is remotely challenging to obtain. Let me go complain about it.

Dre4dwolfb14_ESO · April 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

Oh look, something exists that is remotely challenging to obtain. Let me go complain about it.

Imagine if in boxing , they banned you for being too good and only the terrible boxers were allowed to compete, and ontop of that, they had to use rockum sockum boppers , and ontop of that, they were only allowed to strike target dummies.

Thats pretty much the argument that has always been used against pvp.
Thats pretty much what everyone against pvp is fighting for lol

And the subscribers chart for every game that follows the crybaby crowd always endsup looking like this

and the developers of these games never learn.

Lol the great irony is, once the subs get that low, the only people left playing are the carebears and they become "the majority" and they continue to majority vote the game into oblivion. (excuse the pun).

Earthwardzilvox_ESO · April 2015

That's as ridiculous as saying that any OTHER part of the game shouldn't be a part of character progression. You don't like pvp? Well, some people don't like dungeons, or questing, or dailies, or crafting, or stealing, or farming champion points at v14.

Any part of the game can be skipped, but every part of the game should be worth doing, to reward those who enjoy that aspect of the game at take time doing it.

There are lots of other abilities to place on your bars. If you want the pvp ones, suck it up and pvp. Otherwise, go for the half dozen other options which you can level outside of pvp.

wrlifeboil · April 2015

Dre4dwolfb14_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Oh look, something exists that is remotely challenging to obtain. Let me go complain about it.

Imagine if in boxing , they banned you for being too good and only the terrible boxers were allowed to compete, and ontop of that, they had to use rockum sockum boppers , and ontop of that, they were only allowed to strike target dummies.

Thats pretty much the argument that has always been used against pvp.
Thats pretty much what everyone against pvp is fighting for lol

And the subscribers chart for every game that follows the crybaby crowd always endsup looking like this

and the developers of these games never learn.

Lol the great irony is, once the subs get that low, the only people left playing are the carebears and they become "the majority" and they continue to majority vote the game into oblivion. (excuse the pun).

Cyrodiil really isn't like boxing. Boxing is like a ladder. They have to fight other boxers, hopefully talented, to work their up the ranks become a contender. Joe Palooka can't win 18 matches against bums and expect a title fight, unless there is a gimmick or something. Like the NCAA basketball tournament where you have elimination rounds for 64 teams and the last four winners meet in the Final Four. You can have a small college that nobody has ever heard of that wins 25 games but they have to prove they are good by winning their brackets and advance.

Cyrodiil is more like playground basketball. There are talented playground basketball players but they play against whoever shows up at the court. Someone equally as good might show up or a total scrub might show up. Both give the same AP.