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The need to be in a guild to sell through vendors should be removed.
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Valije✭✭✭0 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »No one would put up with it if the forced you to be in a guild to do anything else, so why accept it with selling?
Imagine having to be in a guild before you could quest and the guild leader gets a cut of all your earnings.
Same thing goes for doing Dungeons or trials.
I shouldn't have to go through some 3rd party I don't even know and give him a cut of my earnings just to sell a item on a vendor.
I agree with the op to a degree, but not as you think. I think zos needs to tackle only one point where certain guilds are concerned and that is some guilds say you need to sell so much items, ie: 100,000 worth of items to remain in the guild, this should be stopped and any guild found to be doing this should be disbanded by them. But to normal guilds taking a small percentage i was wandering how he thought they paid for the postion of the trader through the mist, if he is not happy then just spam chat, oh you cant do that you will get kicked. But serouly they need the cut to pay for bidding for positions so your arant is muteMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike0 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭i dont understand the fuss over guild stores. in other mmos you have auction houses, which ALWAYS charge a cut of your profit, that goes to nobody. a guild store actually makes sense, because any cut actually goes to someone. its a win win situation. you get to sell your goods, and the seller gets profit. your losing a cut anyway, whats the difference? its not like you have to like the guild you are in, hell you dont ever have to even talk to them. be in one guild that you like, and another one just for selling, you can have five yaknow.
seriously, this 'we need an auction house' argument is completely confusing to me
I doesn't need to be an AH is the sense we see AH in, for example, WOW.
What it needs to be is:
- accessible to all players without restriction.
- Functional - as in easy to search for what I want.
- Not require me to go to cities and places I may not have access to because of level disparity.
Currently a new player, with no idea about the game world or economy may find himself needing, at level 12, heading to areas with level 30 mobs just to find a Trade Kiosk that has the thing he needs.
Its an utterly preposterous situation, and one that any genuine "free market" economy would rectify in a matter of days.
For the record, if people want a real-world, historically accurate example to follow look at the origins of the Pawn Shop: a merchant who loans money against goods and who then sells those goods to recoup the cost of the loan.
Why not have such a function, in every major town, for people who are guildless?
Doesn't bother me if he takes a higher % cut than the Trade Guilds,
Quick question: if, as we are told, the need for guilds is because an MMO is a social experience then why should people be required to join a guild they don't like?
Most people play MMOs to get away from the hassle of having to work with people they don't like on a day to day basis.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.1 -
TheRealDoc✭✭✭Please take this thread out the back of the forums and shoot it.
Nothing constructive is going to come from it.3 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »i dont understand the fuss over guild stores. in other mmos you have auction houses, which ALWAYS charge a cut of your profit, that goes to nobody. a guild store actually makes sense, because any cut actually goes to someone. its a win win situation. you get to sell your goods, and the seller gets profit. your losing a cut anyway, whats the difference? its not like you have to like the guild you are in, hell you dont ever have to even talk to them. be in one guild that you like, and another one just for selling, you can have five yaknow.
seriously, this 'we need an auction house' argument is completely confusing to me
The reasons against the system are
You have to join a guild you don't want to, to be able to sell
A player has control over you selling
Top guilds control the best vendors
Vendors are spread out all over the place
Most vendors are in useless out the way places
Plus:
Only those guilds that are successful in bidding for a kiosk can be selling that week, creating a lot of uncertainty and guild-hopping. Sellers are forced to join multiple guilds if they want to be reasonably assured of getting a pitch each week but don't have any direct control over which pitch it might be. If a buyer wants to do repeat business with a guild there's no certainty it will be selling from the same pitch as before.
Most of the kiosk locations are inaccessible to most players. The system really only becomes remotely effective once you are at veteran level.
There is no central search function so the only way of finding what you want is to travel around as many kiosk locations as you are able to access and willing to spend the time on.Edited by Tandor on April 9, 2015 12:16PM2 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EDIT: Quoted previous post instead of editing it!
Edited by Tandor on April 9, 2015 12:14PM0 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I remember in WOW once buying an end-game bow for less than 1/10th of the prevailing market value simply because the seller had decided he no longer wanted it cluttering up his bank. I even contacted him via PM to see if he had accidentally listed it at the wrong price and wanted to consider pulling it and re-listing. He thanked me for my concern and confirmed he was selling it at the listed price.
Now, I could have bought it and resold at a huge profit margin if I was so inclined - but I actually wanted the bow, so I used it.
The implication that bargains don't happen in a different trade system to this is, frankly, ludicrous.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.1 -
WhimsyDragon✭✭✭I haven't read through the whole thread and I know this has been brought up over and over, like many other systems that have not changed, but my two cents is that no, the guild auction system is not optimal. It makes me less interested in dealing with auctions at all. Granted, I realize some of the issues with server-wide systems as well, but at least I'd more likely make use of it (vs doing basic searches with multiple active guilds and not finding what I'm seeking).0 -
ZOS_AlexD✭✭✭Hello, everyone. While we understand that sometimes discussions can become heated when others express ideas that you don't agree with, but that is no excuse to resort to insults and personal comments.We will start by cleaning up some of the more egregious comments now, but if it continues, we'll have no choice but to close this thread. Please keep that in mind when you're posting new comments. Thank you for your understanding.0
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Flynch✭✭✭✭It's fun, interesting, different and takes a bit of player effort to be successful.
We need more of this kind of thing, not less.2 -
P3ZZL3✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZOS_AlexD Just throwing this idea out there. Why not have a properly moderated and formal discussion about "To go AH or Not - what are the options" where we can actually have some participation from the Dev's in charge, or someone who understands the concepts/build required towards this type of system.
It would put in a very healthy debate and it would also solidify what was promised by Gina in the Stickied thread about the "Developers wanting to interact with the community". IF it's never going to be done, then say it - rather than have the community consistently bringing this up? Let's try to put it to bed finally....or at least for a while...with some formal input.
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NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So no one came out in masses last night....maybe the Trader Market event idea isn't to your liking
Please think about things you can do that doesn't require ZOS ....-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ZOS_AlexD Just throwing this idea out there. Why not have a properly moderated and formal discussion about "To go AH or Not - what are the options" where we can actually have some participation from the Dev's in charge, or someone who understands the concepts/build required towards this type of system.
It would put in a very healthy debate and it would also solidify what was promised by Gina in the Stickied thread about the "Developers wanting to interact with the community". IF it's never going to be done, then say it - rather than have the community consistently bringing this up? Let's try to put it to bed finally....or at least for a while...with some formal input.
Agree entirely.
No matter what our personal preference regarding this matter we must surely all agree that having the matter settled once and for all is the best option.
A formal discussion would be great, it would give the Devs a change to hear our views, a chance for us to hear theirs, and maybe a solution can be found that keeps everyone happy and everyone included in this part of the game.
All The Best
Those memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.0 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭MercyKilling wrote: »It's entirely relevant because I am not joining any guilds unless it's one I form for myself.....and since I cannot have the required amount of slots to fill my personal guild....
I think you can follow the rest of the logic there.
It's entirely irrelevant, as you can't join your own guild more than once. You can't get your guild above *one* by yourself, let alone 10.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »
4000g-6000g for 200 wood I don't think so.Pendrillion wrote: »Yet we still manage to sell and buy stuff at reasonable prices... Strange how that can work...
Where have you seen that? I want to join *that* guild and make some serious dosh! Wood goes for a little over 1k per stack between all of my guilds. And less than that depending on the tier.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
Pendrillion✭✭✭✭And thats only your profit maximising view on things. And apologies. Rather than insulting people of being insulting to you or your intellect, you should at least concede that Guild Stores are a core element of the game. The only issue is YOU don't want to put up with it, or think it an unfair system.
But that is your opinion. I understand the problem of getting what you want in an expedite manner. Yet still it is neither impossible, nor are you forced to join a guild. The option is cut out clear. Either you partake in this game element or you do not. Both things have their up and down sides.
And I agree in a manner an auction house is more comfortable to deal with. I never dispute that. But I also see what downsides a centralised market has in more than one MMO. There are people who rip off newbies as well. Or dictate prices. The point is they can do it more easily and over the whole game with a AH. It is much more hydraulic despotism, because everyone has to come to you if they want a ressource. And from everywhere in the game. Which of course creates much harsher margins and prices. The only thing that gets easier with an auction house is Goldfarmers taking advantage of players, by dictating their prices.
But as you pointed out succintly: The system is flawed. But capitalism and ressource management generally is. Because otherwise we wouldn't have to trade.Edited by Pendrillion on April 9, 2015 1:25PM3 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭^better for there to be flaws that exist in membership groups than flaws to exist in the server AH
I wonder...did anyone who wants the AH ever participate in the Diablo 3 RMAH?
Even the non-RMAH had issues as it was a big market and this games has only 2 servers.
So it's the same idea where you'll see thousands of pages of the same items over and over and iver for months this diminishing any worthwhile value.
Supply and demand create values so if anyone can get almost anything right away it's no longer valuable.
In the argument made about selling items online vs going to Walmart or something like that....look at how many online competitors undercut each other to the point that some items are cheaper brand new than the used items on EBay-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5011 -
Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pendrillion wrote: »The only thing that gets easier with an auction house is Goldfarmers taking advantage of players, by dictating their prices.
That is somewhat disingenuous.
In every game I have played with an AH I have found it easier to:
- Find what I was looking for.
- Determine realistic prices.
- Keep an eye on market trends.
- Sell on my unwanted mats.
- Sell on quality crated items.
Because of point 2 it is often harder for people to rip-off newbies, because the newbie can always go look at the AH and see what prices are like.
As to cornering markets, I've been playing MMORPGs for longer than I care to admit, because of my erratic work cycle I can sometimes get in 30+ hours a week of game-time and I have never once seen the situation you allude to - it just doesn't happen, its a myth. The more people have access to the same market-space the LESS likely it is to occur.
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.3 -
Rivan12✭✭✭Although I wouldn't really utilize it, maybe introducing a TRADE CHAT CHANNEL would help those not wanting to join a merchant guild.
Personally, I love the current system. It reminds me of my first MMO Ultima Online and guild/player run vendor houses. While playing that game you had to search for deals, search merchants placed by players ALL OVER the world and it was a huge amount of fun for me. Especially when finding a good vendor to buy from with great prices.
So please ZOS keep current system as is, never think of adding a AH to placate the vocal minority. Just add a ALL Alliance Trade Chat channel they can go to and sell items. I wont use it, because the current system is just fine and a breath of fresh air from what other 'modern' MMO's offer."Pssst, I know who you are... Hail Sithis"0 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree, what this game needs is an Auction House, I don't even bother to buy anything or sell anything.
The effort for reward is too low and more importantly it's a ball ache.3 -
Thanks for posting that. Lots of misinformation going on that needed cleared up.I find this system mostly a success story. The economy feels stable and many people tell me every week how well it is working for them. I run a large trading guild and we have built over time and I feel our member base has worked for and continues to earn the privilege of one of the 'better locations' in the game. If someone just started a guild and is complaining that they can't bid in Rawl'kha, then that's like opening a store in a strip mall and getting upset that they aren't automatically able to have the giant premium mall location. It's irrational to think that you'll have instant finances/backing to compete there and it's a slow, time-intensive, and mostly thankless process to build a community to great success in ANY aspect of the game. The economics mimic that of the real world and I feel it is healthy, but I do find the blind bid system and high competition to be very stressful at times. Honest good merchant guild leaders will build trust and gain the guild wealth to bid on better and better locations as time passes.
Being a high volume store with comparatively high costs, I need a guild of active participants, so yes I absolutely have in place some minimal participation requirements (presently 3k/wk per person in either store transactions or raffle entries to be exact) to ensure that people are there to be part of the trading community / supportive of our primary objective. I only have 500 guild spaces to offer and with high weekly expenses (recently in excess of 3 mil/wk), I would be a fool to let people ghost on our roster when there are others that will use our trading location to its potential. We keep a fun atmosphere and much like Hiyde was mentioning, we additionally run many not-for-profit events that are a ton of fun and give great prizes. Many of our successful traders work hard to educate others on how to enjoy the game economics. Remember that for some part of the game's member base, it *is* their way of enjoying the game just as some players enjoy PvP and others Trials and such. I understand that every guild is different and this might not be your experience, but the positive feedback I receive FAR outweighs the criticism.
For the taxes, they generally pay roughly 1/3 what it takes to keep our high volume kiosk in a the MOST competitive city. Supplementing through raffles and other means are necessary to make up the remainder (and a HUGE time investment for GMs). It's so critical for me to note that MOST TRADING HUBS DON'T REQUIRE THIS. So in contrast I'll also state that I run a second guild that I started recently in another area where demand is not as high and that guild easily pays for itself between taxes and member donations using no gold from my main guild AND WITHOUT having any formalized requirements. This also supports what I see with many new guilds that have taken spots in great locations within cities. This barrier to entry that a 'new guild can't be successful' that keeps being thrown around in this thread just doesn't reflect what I have experienced and what I see week after week.
For the point of members being shut out of prime trading guilds or denied access based on trying to do the numbers of the population, any trade guild GM can speak to the availability of entry. I am constantly refreshing our roster to have 500 active participants in both guilds and thus am constantly recruiting. I believe that anyone that wants a quality selling location can EASILY get one or more in-game by watching zone chat as I see many large guilds with great trading locations recruiting constantly.
Lastly, as for not having anything in common with these other 499 members of a trading guild... you instantly do and for the reason you joined. You want to sell stuff and make money. You can do price checks on items you don't have data on, ask questions, etc. You might even find people that you like there. I know that I have built many great friendships that I'm sure will last long past the duration of ESO.
The system isn't perfect, but I and many others find it workable and have a great amount of fun regardless.
Cheers
Edited by freakyfreak on April 9, 2015 3:42PM4 -
liammozzb16_ESO✭✭✭Name one GM that would be happy I am constantly selling my items less than him because I think he's selling them too high and wouldn't do anything about it.0
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AaronMB✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »Name one GM that would be happy I am constantly selling my items less than him because I think he's selling them too high and wouldn't do anything about it.
In my opinion, most everyone sells too high and I take advantage of that, selling below nearly everyone, including all four GMs of the respective guilds to which I belong. High sellers and low sellers evens things out pretty well.
As was stated several times, there are plenty of good guilds out there - with great GMs. You're assuming and pigeonholing guilds and their leaders because of a few anecdotes and your limited experience. Have you tried contacting any of the guild leaders that have given you invites in your thread here?
Edited by AaronMB on April 9, 2015 4:01PM1 -
P3ZZL3✭✭✭✭✭
✭Me (although technically I'm a deputy)? I couldn't care less what you sell the items for (and neither would the GM). The fact you have actually posted up items for sale is more than our average player does as we are more of a social guild
Also, I can think of at least 20-30 players in the guild who would buy them instantly off you. They wouldn't even see the light of day in the Trader in all honesty.
Edited by P3ZZL3 on April 9, 2015 4:01PMCP561 Redguard | Jabsy Templar | Stamina Build
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Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »wOOOOt_of_SD wrote: »Selling items is not a problem - its easy to get into Trading guilds.
No one has aver said getting into a Trade Guild is difficult, so why people keep mentioning it is quite beyond me.
What people are saying is we shouldn't have to join a guild just to sell stuff.
All The Best
How about:
"Logging into the game is easy, so quit complaining about crashes to desktop."Badge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
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ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭Hello, everyone. While we understand that sometimes discussions can become heated when others express ideas that you don't agree with, but that is no excuse to resort to insults and personal comments.We will start by cleaning up some of the more egregious comments now, but if it continues, we'll have no choice but to close this thread. Please keep that in mind when you're posting new comments. Thank you for your understanding.
Instead of closing a thread due to egregious responses, why not suspend those people that commit these violations?
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ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"1 -
Oddur✭I actually like the idea of stores run by guilds, and the more diverse economy that it should create with things like prime vs cheap locations and large vs small trade guilds, and I don't have any practical experience with the system as it is now, because I haven't been playing for a really long time, but I do have a really important suggestion for improving the existing system rather than scraping it.
Here it is: Guild kiosks need to be able to buy items from other players! This is what is really lacking here: An exchange of goods! Imagine a world where you not only wander the streets of Tamriel looking for a good price to buy items, but you also look for a decent price to sell the items you've looted or crafted!
Now you might ask, "How will the guild be able to buy my goods if they aren't on-line?!" My answer to you is this: A guild with a kiosk will place a set number of orders for specific items at their own specified price! Players may then check the guild's kiosk to see what they are buying, how many they want, and how much they are willing to pay for it. Guilds will be motivated to buy player items because this will help to increase the number of players who frequent their kiosk. This can also help guilds who do not have prime locations, since players will want to seek out more kiosks to get the best deal on selling their goods.
Essentially, each kiosk becomes something slightly more like an AH, but the goods and prices traded are determined by the guild who runs it. Competition between kiosks will help to keep prices from skyrocketing. If this is not enough, it may be necessary to instate something like a trading post, where players will open a menu which lists all of the guild stores in their present city, and the player may access a guild store by selecting it from this list. This would make all kiosks in a city equally accessible to the market, and would decrease the importance of having a very specific spot.
Main point: Guild stores need to be able to buy goods from the players through the kiosk.
"Never leave home ahead of your axe or your sword. You can't feel a battle in your bones, or foresee a fight before it happens." old norse proverb7 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭liammozzb16_ESO wrote: »Name one GM that would be happy I am constantly selling my items less than him because I think he's selling them too high and wouldn't do anything about it.
Any. Because if you sell low, then it's very likely that the guildies will buy it to re-post it at a better price if it's too low. It's the exact same thing as if you have it on a global AH, it's just the pool that's smaller.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror2 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭So please ZOS keep current system as is, never think of adding a AH to placate the vocal minority.
Oohhh another "vocal minority" flag waver.
- How do you know that the vocal minority is the minority?
- If it is a minority, are they always wrong or presenting invalid issues?
- Is the majority not vocal too? Is vocal an issue here? How vocal is vocal?
Seems more like a rude way to try to disregard a whole group or perspective based on pure BS. Weak.
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ZoSence (n.):
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